NationStates

Hiddenrun wrote:

RoI2 wrote:I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

I care about my family, my friends, my community. I work hard to contribute to their well being. I do not ask you to do so. I expect you have similar ties to your family, friends and community, and hopefully you do your part to help them out. Don't expect me to care about your people, when I have mine to worry about.

My people?

You clearly do not care about your community (unless you live in a rich 1). Face facts - not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Free Soviets wrote:

Hiddenrun wrote:

Free Soviets wrote:

Hiddenrun wrote:If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it.

prove this claim

Excuse me?

If you want something, then find the means to acquire it yourself. It's fairly simple. Even the worst paying job in America will allow you to eat, clothe yourself in the most basic of ways and access some sort of shelter. If you desire goods or services beyond that, then work harder.

that does not demonstrate the truth of your claim. prove to me that one should not have access to things they can't afford, because i don't believe you.

The alternative is called "theft". You can acquire "stuff" through theft. But the rules of civil society demand that such acquisition be resisted.

Hiddenrun wrote:

RoI2 wrote:I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

I care about my family, my friends, my community. I work hard to contribute to their well being. I do not ask you to do so. I expect you have similar ties to your family, friends and community, and hopefully you do your part to help them out. Don't expect me to care about your people, when I have mine to worry about.

And where do you draw the line? The town you live in? Your neighborhood? Your attitude sounds rather tribal.

I know! Why should we even have healthcare in the first place? Doctors and pharmaceuticals are just another safety net draining our cash into their ridiculously bloated pocketbooks. People have to take some responsibility for themselves. If you get sick, it's your own damn problem; you shouldn't expect some doctor to fix your problems for you.

Ravea wrote:Ha. Right. Plenty of jobs for paraplegics out there, right?

What if you are not mentally able?

If you're paraplegic and mentally unable, then I'm sorry, but what possible use are you? I'm sorry that nature, or your own bad decisions caused you to end up in such a state, but it's not my problem.

I know it sounds harsh, but I fail to see why we should worry about the welfare of those who cannot in any way contribute to society.

RoI2 wrote:You clearly do not care about your community (unless you live in a rich 1). Face facts - not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Given that people risk their lives to illegally enter the US and then live outside the law in order to illegally stay in the US, there is pretty good evidence that success in the US does not require anything even close to a silver-spooned birth.

Free Soviets wrote:prove this.

Oh spare me. Don't you have some Marx to read?

Czardas wrote:I know! Why should we even have healthcare in the first place? Doctors and pharmaceuticals are just another safety net draining our cash into their ridiculously bloated pocketbooks. People have to take some responsibility for themselves. If you get sick, it's your own damn problem; you shouldn't expect some doctor to fix your problems for you.

Illness is just market pressure acting on an inferior product/person.

Post-Unity Terra wrote:

Hiddenrun wrote:Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

A belief that government should work for the good of those it governs, rather than purely for wealth itself.

You are right. But the problem is people who do not work, or play a negitive role in society, are getting money from the goverment. If you are do not play a postive role in socitey, than you should not get the same benfits other people get, who do paly a postive role. People are not born with a right to anything. You must earn everything you are given and get.

United Russian State wrote:

Post-Unity Terra wrote:

Hiddenrun wrote:Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

A belief that government should work for the good of those it governs, rather than purely for wealth itself.

Your right. But the problem is people who do not work, or play a negitive role in society, are getting money from the goverment. If you are do not play a postive role in socitey, than you should not get the same benfits other people get, who do paly a postive role. People are not born with a right to anything. You must earn everything you are given and get.

So naturally the most welfare should go to the wealthy, right?

Hiddenrun wrote:

Free Soviets wrote:prove this.

Oh spare me. Don't you have some Marx to read?

Don't you have a bible to read. Answer the question or there is no point arguing with you.

Hiddenrun wrote:

Ravea wrote:Ha. Right. Plenty of jobs for paraplegics out there, right?

What if you are not mentally able?

If you're paraplegic and mentally unable, then I'm sorry, but what possible use are you? I'm sorry that nature, or your own bad decisions caused you to end up in such a state, but it's not my problem.

I know it sounds harsh, but I fail to see why we should worry about the welfare of those who cannot in any way contribute to society.

Wait, you think people should be judged on what they contribute to the state, but you don't think the state should have any power to govern its citizens the way it best sees fit?

A White Hawk wrote:Why? The poor would do the same or worse if they had money.

Really? Prove it.

It's perfectly conceivable that the poor might actually feel a bit of sympathy for other people and agree with welfare & such.

Hiddenrun wrote: I know it sounds harsh, but I fail to see why we should worry about the welfare of those who cannot in any way contribute to society.

Pity for you that you will, I suppose you could leave the country if you don't like it,

Suck it up,

Post-Unity Terra wrote:

Czardas wrote:I know! Why should we even have healthcare in the first place? Doctors and pharmaceuticals are just another safety net draining our cash into their ridiculously bloated pocketbooks. People have to take some responsibility for themselves. If you get sick, it's your own damn problem; you shouldn't expect some doctor to fix your problems for you.

Illness is just market pressure acting on an inferior product/person.

Yeah. Plenty of Americans don't get sick each year, or do get sick and manage to get over it without medical attention. It's clear that suffering from illness is a choice, and no one has to do it. Don't like it? Don't get sick. Simple.

Treznor wrote:It's also profit-based. They therefore have a vested interest in taking money from people, while giving back as little as possible. That's not help so much as exploitation.

What a crock of shit.

You buy rental insurance. It covers the value of all the goods within your rental unit. You pay a premium based on calculations of the value of your goods, and the assessed risk of their loss or damage. You pay that premium and hope that nothing ever actually happens. If something does happen, you collect, most likely far in excess of anything you have actually paid in. How is that fucking exploitation?

Treznor wrote: Got a little risk, because you had a traffic ticket or a previous illness? They won't cover you the way you're likely to need it. Too many problems? They'll help you so far and no farther.

And that's exactly as it should be. Why should the insurance company foot the bill for your idiocy? If you are paying low premiums because you were assessed as low risk, and suddenly you start making claims left and right, the insurance company is absolutely right in changing your assessed risk level to high, and upping your premiums.

Treznor wrote:Sorry, profit-based assistance tends to fall far short of the mark. I'm looking for compassion, not greed.

Go to your mom for compassion. I'm not giving it. Your version of compassion is exactly what I'm taking about. Refusing to take care of yourself, or make necessary preparations, because you think someone should do this for you. You whine that insurance companies aren't compassionate enough, yet if you bothered to look into it, you'd find that compassion isn't nearly as important as ensuring you are covered in case of loss. Taking that step towards self-sufficiency is infinitely more practical than hoping for random compassion from strangers.

Help yourself. Say it, love it, live it.

You can achieve the quality of life you work for. If all you want to do is dig ditches for a shit wage, then have at it. If you want more than that, then get off your ass, and find a way to achieve that goal. Sitting around hoping someone is going to throw you a bone is frankly contemptible. Those with drive, ambition and intelligence, make it. The lazy, stupid and slack can stay where they are, at the lower rungs where they belong. Working shit jobs, rather than sucking away funds through welfare.

So you say that shit jobs aren't shit? That they don't require hard work? I'm sure the average factory worker (especially illegal worker) would vehemently disagree.

You see, I split up your nonsensical sentence because you seem to be making things up. Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem? Should I be subsidizing the stupid, ugly, boring, or what have you?

Fuck. No.

You forgot the most important adjective--poor. People born to poor families can't afford the means to get ahead--ex., college. Said people basically inherited their status.

Post-Unity Terra wrote:
Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Sounds like you don't understand contracts. Perhaps you should work on that.

Classical Liberal wrote:

Post-Unity Terra wrote:
Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Some, but hey guess what, you can leave their company!

And go to another company that will treat you exactly the same way! Can't you smell that freedom?

Obviously everyone should be expected to be a stable contributer to society and not expect any help from the society they prop up.

Pay taxes and recieve wars in Iraq and while your family members die, you go bankrupt. Sounds like an awesome arrangement.

Hiddenrun wrote:

Free Soviets wrote:prove this.

Oh spare me. Don't you have some Marx to read?

jefferson would do just as well on this point. 'your stuff' is only yours because society says so. society can change the terms through legitimate democratic processes. you got a job on the understanding that your pay would include taxes, so it is no complaint at all to say that you are being taxed. you could try to argue that you shouldn't be taxed or that tax money shouldn't be used in certain ways. but the claim that stuff is yours does not ground either of those claims.

come on man, present arguments.

Niicha wrote:I have a few questions for Hiddenrun, and I apologize if it detracts. How do you feel about your taxes paying for things such as military, fire, police and garbage services? Do you not believe in some sort of social contract or any other societal obligations?

I think pretty much all of these things can be taken care of by private enterprise, with sensitive areas such as policing or military having some government oversight.

New Heliopolis wrote:You forgot the most important adjective--poor. People born to poor families can't afford the means to get ahead--ex., college. Said people basically inherited their status.

Well, instead of going on welfare they could always join the military, which is totally not the same thing as welfare because it involves killing people and liberals hate it.

Hiddenrun wrote:

Free Soviets wrote:i'm making no argument. i'm demanding one from you. you do have one, right?

Yes, I've made it. You are not entitled to my money just so you can buy things you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

If you want to reach into my pocket, it's you who had better have a good argument, because otherwise, you'd be staring down a barrel.

Yeah, the funny thing is: poor people have guns too. And there are a lot more at the bottom of the pyramid then at the top. Just look over history and you'll see that the wealthy tend to lose when it comes to matters of brute force, your peers are just too soft and too few to survive without the support of those below you.
And how do you maintain that support? By pretending to care, by throwing the little guys a bone once in a while, and by maintaining a status quo at an acceptable level. That means taking care of others, even if you don't want to, because the alternative is your head on a pike by the side of the road somewhere.

dp