Stop expecting others to take care of you.

[Farnhamia]

It's not just the whining about needing socialized medicine, it's the entire sense of entitlement that people seem to have. It should be very simple. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. Period. If someone wants to get it for you, great. I don't happen to care about you at all, and I resent greatly the belief that I should somehow pay for you to access anything you can't get on your own.

Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

Break your leg, get cancer, and have your kidney's removed... none of these are your fault, but you lose your job and don't have enough money to afford an operation that is to save your life.

Then we'll discuss this topic.

He's planned for all that. He can take care of himself, he justn't want to spend any of his hard-earned money on ... well, you, for instance, uness you can do something useful for him.

[Allied Governments]

It's not just the whining about needing socialized medicine, it's the entire sense of entitlement that people seem to have. It should be very simple. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. Period. If someone wants to get it for you, great. I don't happen to care about you at all, and I resent greatly the belief that I should somehow pay for you to access anything you can't get on your own.

Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

Break your leg, get cancer, and have your kidney's removed... none of these are your fault, but you lose your job and don't have enough money to afford an operation that is to save your life.

Then we'll discuss this topic.

He's planned for all that. He can take care of himself, he justn't want to spend any of his hard-earned money on ... well, you, for instance, uness you can do something useful for him.

I actually don't see what's wrong with that.

[Hiddenrun]

HMO denying payment for service to a terminally ill cancer patient. Because HMOs are immune to law suits, once the patient dies, the insurance company is no longer liable for anything even if the patient was previously owed compensation for a treatment. That's a perfect example.

You are absolutely wrong.

If you are covered by an HMO either individually or under an employee plan, you can sue an HMO in federal court for failure to pay for a treatment covered by your plan. HMOs are not immune to lawsuits and your estate can continue the action if you die.

[Hiddenrun]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

[North Suran]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

What part of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" did you not quite understand?

[Farnhamia]

It's not just the whining about needing socialized medicine, it's the entire sense of entitlement that people seem to have. It should be very simple. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. Period. If someone wants to get it for you, great. I don't happen to care about you at all, and I resent greatly the belief that I should somehow pay for you to access anything you can't get on your own.

Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

Break your leg, get cancer, and have your kidney's removed... none of these are your fault, but you lose your job and don't have enough money to afford an operation that is to save your life.

Then we'll discuss this topic.

He's planned for all that. He can take care of himself, he justn't want to spend any of his hard-earned money on ... well, you, for instance, uness you can do something useful for him.

I actually don't see what's wrong with that.

I do, I must have been typing with my eyes closed.

Absolutely take care of yourself but the "fuck off and die if you can't take care of yourself" attitude that sets Hiddenrun apart. And he does mean "die." Go look for his pronouncements on paraplegics, for instance, above in the thread.

[Aelosia]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

And are you aware that not everyone in society can aspire to get into that career and line of work? That if everyone does, the competition would perhaps more likely render you jobless and poor and with only a few opportunities left? I am pretty sure your political stance would change entirely in that situation, and you would beg for help from others, the goverment, or whatever.

You need to recognize that in every society, someone has to take care of the cesspool, less you drown in manure.

[Barringtonia]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

Now you're laying bare the ridiculousness of your claims,

What job is secure under all financial conditions?

You've been lucky and you assume your luck is down to you alone,

I'm not saying you've not been responsible and intelligent and prepared for the worst, you just haven't been hit by the worst as it concerns you,

[Duetopia]

HMO denying payment for service to a terminally ill cancer patient. Because HMOs are immune to law suits, once the patient dies, the insurance company is no longer liable for anything even if the patient was previously owed compensation for a treatment. That's a perfect example.

You are absolutely wrong.

If you are covered by an HMO either individually or under an employee plan, you can sue an HMO in federal court for failure to pay for a treatment covered by your plan. HMOs are not immune to lawsuits and your estate can continue the action if you die.

For failure to pay. But a provider can deny treatment without payment. So failure to pay will amount to failure to pay for 1 treatment -- not for the full course. The point is that you can't sue for damages resulting from failure to pay (the way you can sue a doctor).

[Hydesland]

If you want to reach into my pocket, it's you who had better have a good argument, because otherwise, you'd be staring down a barrel.

And how the hell is the fact that it will reduce suffering not a good argument?

[Hiddenrun]

Also, this comes awfully close to flaming, don't you think?

-snip-

This comes awfully close to using Mods as weapons, don't you think?

Non-Aligned States is merely pointing out that your argument is essentially cutting people off and letting them die.

Did I post that in Moderation? The answer is no.

He came very close to wishing death upon me, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. And considering it has nothing to do with you, I'd suggest minding your own business.

[Hiddenrun]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

What part of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" did you not quite understand?

If you want to pursue happiness with a degree in Women's Studies, feel free. But don't complain when you lose your job as a research assistant and can't find anything 'in your field'.

McDonald's would probably love to have you though.

[Treznor]

I thought you were talking about all insurance companies, not just health insurance.

I am. Health insurance is just the topic du jour.

people avoid getting basic care until their problems get out of control

And what do you expect the health insurance companies to do about that? They don't control peoples lives.

In fact, they do. They're the reason people avoid getting basic care by raising prices to the point where people have to choose between medical care and eating. The last time I had no choice but to visit a doctor in the US I had to spend a quarter of my paycheck to do so. The last time I had to visit a doctor in Australia I spent thirty-six dollars, and that was a tenth of my reduced income.

The focus in health care should be prevention, but that doesn't give the same return on investment so instead the industry focuses on response.

In what sense do health insurance companies focus on response?

The payout is greater for treatment than prevention. That's why more and more doctors become specialists instead of general practitioners. Pharmaceutical companies make their profits on new drugs for new diseases, so they wine and dine doctors to find reasons to use those new drugs. The insurance companies have to raise premiums to cover the expense of all these specialists and drugs, so people are less inclined to spend money on basic care. Which then drives up the need for specialists and drugs when things start to go wrong.

All because there's profit to be made.

denying coverage when it would impact their profit margins.

Any individual denial of coverage would usually have an infinitesimal impact on overall profit so there would be no motive to deny an individual service and risk a court case, any denial of coverage that does happen would likely be not covered in the contract in the first place. Competition prevents the companies from selling rubbish services that only cover certain procedures and medicines, unless they are at a significantly reduced cost (or there is a cartel going on, which isn't what the majority free market supporters want, hence anti-trust laws).

Denial of coverage is real, and it's on the increase. Competition isn't helping this, and there's good reason to believe that the insurance industry is establishing "industry standards" to weed out "high risk" customers -- even people who are perfectly healthy. Maybe it doesn't make sense, but this is what's happening right now. Something needs to change.

[Farnhamia]

If you want to reach into my pocket, it's you who had better have a good argument, because otherwise, you'd be staring down a barrel.

And how the hell is the fact that it will reduce suffering not a good argument?

Because he simply doesn't care about anyone he has not specifically chosen to care about, based either on family ties or usefulness to him. "You'd be staring down a barrel" is simple bravado.

[North Suran]

Did I post that in Moderation? The answer is no.

Do you have to necessarily post a thread in Moderation to be "using Mods as weapons"? The answer is no.

He came very close to wishing death upon me, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. And considering it has nothing to do with you, I'd suggest minding your own business.

Oh, my mistake.

I was labouring under the misconception that this was a public forum.

[Dyakovo]

A belief that government should work for the good of those it governs, rather than purely for wealth itself.

The good of who? The government takes from those who have, and gives to those too lazy to get it themselves. That works for the lazy, but not so well for those of us who actually earn our money.

So you're saying that I don't work for my money?

[Barringtonia]

Also, this comes awfully close to flaming, don't you think?

-snip-

This comes awfully close to using Mods as weapons, don't you think?

Non-Aligned States is merely pointing out that your argument is essentially cutting people off and letting them die.

Did I post that in Moderation? The answer is no.

He came very close to wishing death upon me, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. And considering it has nothing to do with you, I'd suggest minding your own business.

It probably does come close to flaming, yet you've happily allowed for paraplegics to be left to their own devices, which is a rather inflammatory statement as well given society's opinions,

In a sense, he's merely mirroring your own belief, that if one has no planned for every single contingency then that is one's own fault and one deserves to suffer for it.

[Czardas]

There is no such thing as a purely "self-made" individual. Some people work harder than others, and some people are more naturally talented than others. Being able to take advantage of that hard work or natural talent requires the support of the society they live in, or it's like sowing seeds on rocks: you waste material where it does no good. People who argue everyone should be allowed to rise or fall on their own merits deny the role of society in providing the opportunity to benefit from those merits.

Plus, we have inheritance, and created opportunities. I had access to education, and to a lot of facilities and opportunities that were negated to others given their background, place of birth and family status. There is no "self made" men/women because the play field is not levelled to begin with. Noone is equal at birth in the world we live in.

Hmm. In spite of natural talent or intelligence or whatever, I only have a job right now by pure chance. Of the kind of "if I hadn't met the right people at the right time" chance. If it hadn't been for coincidences, I'd never have been able to make enough money to go to university, get jobs, etc. (You could say the lack of scholarships was my fault, but I did look, and use even resources that I really shouldn't have, morally -- and didn't find anything that would cover the full costs.)

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

Incidentally, I was (well, am, I suppose) an arts major, with the consequence that now I have a job I can never be laid off from under any circumstances, plus the knowledge and ability to get additional work once I'm out of school. It's hard to think of many more careers that can weather any possible financial situation. Doctors and clergymen, I suppose. The reasons not everyone can become one of those should be obvious.

[Duetopia]

Given an equal birth, then I would allow for choice of love to determine the society one wants to live in, given equal resources in land as well.

Yet where both birth and land are unequal, then one's choice of love is coerced as well, in that sense I strive for a society that aims for equality, despite aiming to work in balance with efficiency, but taking priority.

Love is not a choice. It's what makes it fickle.

But what you call "equality" amount to equality in results of actions. And that necessitates inequality of actions because of inequality of talents. Since you seek to impose this social order through the institution of coercion, you are, in effect, seeking unequal treatment of individuals by the government. This is in direct violation of the principal spirit of the establishing document.

[Poliwanacraca]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

The professions of some of the people I personally know who have been laid off in the past year:

- lawyer
- nurse
- accountant
- teacher
- engineer
- administrative assistant
- translator
- physical therapist

Since apparently none of the above careers are magically safe from all economic crises, please tell me precisely which careers you think are?

[North Suran]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

What part of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" did you not quite understand?

If you want to pursue happiness with a degree in Women's Studies, feel free. But don't complain when you lose your job as a research assistant and can't find anything 'in your field'.

McDonald's would probably love to have you though.

I'd love to talk to this clairvoyant who told you that an economic Recession was going to happen back when you were still in University.

[Hiddenrun]

Now you're laying bare the ridiculousness of your claims,

What job is secure under all financial conditions?

You've been lucky and you assume your luck is down to you alone,

I'm not saying you've not been responsible and intelligent and prepared for the worst, you just haven't been hit by the worst as it concerns you,

No job is secure under all financial conditions.

Some fields, however, are more vulnerable than others. There are only so many jobs for sociology majors. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

If you want an education for education's sake, then by all means, have at it. Pay for it, enjoy what it brings you. Your sociology degree does not entitle you to a top-notch job, and as long as you recognize that, fine.

It's the whining of the people who deliberately make bad career choices that grate most.

I didn't choose a career that I felt fulfilled me as a person. I choose a career that would allow me to provide for myself and my family, and that has skills transferable to many other fields. I make as much money as I can, with as little effort as possible, so that I can enjoy my life. I don't need to love my job (though luckily I do actually quite enjoy it), because my goal is self-sufficiency, not self-realization-through-work.

I'm also not such an arrogant, self-entitled twat as to think that working outside my field is 'below me'. If I lost my job and could not find anything else in my field for three months, I'd take a fucking job at a fast-food joint with no complaints. People who prefer to sit on their asses and cry about being too good for such work make me sick.

[Czardas]

It's not just the whining about needing socialized medicine, it's the entire sense of entitlement that people seem to have. It should be very simple. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. Period. If someone wants to get it for you, great. I don't happen to care about you at all, and I resent greatly the belief that I should somehow pay for you to access anything you can't get on your own.

Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

Break your leg, get cancer, and have your kidney's removed... Next, you will fall down a stairs and break your neck, making your crippled. None of these are your fault, but you lose your job and don't have enough money to afford medical care.

Is it fair you should be left out to die because you didn't have private insurance, and can't afford the medical care needed for you to lead a (reasonably active, productive) life?

Does that happen? I mean, if you don't have insurance, they can't legally kick you off the ambulance. They'll give you the medical care, at the taxpayers' cost rather than yours. In a society where that kind of thing was banned, they still wouldn't kick you off the ambulance. They'd just bill you, your family members, and your descendants until they had fully repaid the medical costs. If a private company did kick people off the ambulance, I suspect no one would use it.

[Rikese]

These programs are callous when you consider all the sacrifices of others to achieve the standing and income they now have.

My mother's side of the family sacrificed greatly by doing outrageous things like using newspapers instead of toiletries in order to send my mother to college. Why should any member of my family fork over money to others who did not try as they did to escape poverty?

[Farnhamia]

Silly, you should have picked a job that you couldn't possibly get laid off from in any kind of financial crisis whatsoever. Don't you know how to predict the future?

Actually yes. Choosing a career that is able to weather uncertain financial times is key. I'm glad you recognize this. Perhaps you can now go enlighten all the Arts majors out there.

The professions of some of the people I personally know who have been laid off in the past year:

- lawyer
- nurse
- accountant
- teacher
- engineer
- administrative assistant
- translator
- physical therapist

Since apparently none of the above careers are magically safe from all economic crises, please tell me precisely which careers you think are?

These people obviously did something wrong to make them less valuable to their employers. Come on, Poli, you know that's true. Bad things only happen to people because of something intrinsic to those people themselves. Probably laziness, that seems to be the main theme here.