Stop expecting others to take care of you.

[Hydesland]

If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it.

Or not.

[Treznor]

It's also profit-based. They therefore have a vested interest in taking money from people, while giving back as little as possible. That's not help so much as exploitation.

What a crock of shit.

You buy rental insurance. It covers the value of all the goods within your rental unit. You pay a premium based on calculations of the value of your goods, and the assessed risk of their loss or damage. You pay that premium and hope that nothing ever actually happens. If something does happen, you collect, most likely far in excess of anything you have actually paid in. How is that fucking exploitation?

Speaking of crocks of shit.

When people need help, they need help. Not "I'm sorry, that would cut into my profits too much." That's cold comfort when the fruits of a lifetime of struggle go up in smoke, or down the drain due to unexpected unemployment or illness. A lot of things that can't be predicted can be go wrong, and shrugging it off as "that's life" betrays a very callous outlook. We built a civilization on cooperation and compassion, not greed and selfishness.

Got a little risk, because you had a traffic ticket or a previous illness? They won't cover you the way you're likely to need it. Too many problems? They'll help you so far and no farther.

And that's exactly as it should be. Why should the insurance company foot the bill for your idiocy? If you are paying low premiums because you were assessed as low risk, and suddenly you start making claims left and right, the insurance company is absolutely right in changing your assessed risk level to high, and upping your premiums.

Exactly. They're profit-based so it makes perfect sense for them to cut off assistance when people need it most. That's why we want to get rid of them.

I'm glad we understand each other so well.

Sorry, profit-based assistance tends to fall far short of the mark. I'm looking for compassion, not greed.

Go to your mom for compassion. I'm not giving it. Your version of compassion is exactly what I'm taking about. Refusing to take care of yourself, or make necessary preparations, because you think someone should do this for you. You whine that insurance companies aren't compassionate enough, yet if you bothered to look into it, you'd find that compassion isn't nearly as important as ensuring you are covered in case of loss. Taking that step towards self-sufficiency is infinitely more practical than hoping for random compassion from strangers.

Help yourself. Say it, love it, live it.

Fuck that. My mother doesn't have the ability to fix my problems, especially after paying for the cancer treatments my father suffered through without help from insurance. They saved up a lot of money for a rainy day and it still fell short when they needed it most, along with their private insurance company who was happy to take their money up to the point when they needed assistance. There's a reason why the most common cause of bankruptcy in the US is due to medical bills.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born into a rich family. The "rags to riches" fable is increasingly rare, not because people are lazy as you claim, but because the barriers to success are increasingly more difficult to overcome. People lose their jobs on a whim, get illnesses that cost too much to address and can't afford basic medical maintenance because it's more profitable to drive up the prices.

Fuck greed. If it comes down to a choice between healthy profit margins and healthy bodies, fuck the profit margins. Take away the profit motive from health care and any other "industry" based on human need. I don't give a shit if it means "stealing" from you in the form of taxes, because it'll benefit you anyway even if you aren't willing to believe it.

[Trippoli]

Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem? Should I be subsidizing the stupid, ugly, boring, or what have you?

Fuck. No.

I guess it's safe to say that every Conservative are just cold-hearted dicks.

[Hiddenrun]

It seems like there's a lack of understanding here that it's an 'emergancy service' and 'helping the country' thing rather than a 'have sympathy on the poor' thing.

Precisely.

This little rant:

Personally, I fail to see why we should worry about the opinions of self-centered little shits who think it's a horrible offense for the government to spend tax money on saving people's lives. If you drive on roads built with public funds, use products developed through publicly funded research, call the publicly funded police if someone breaks into your house, use running water connected to sewer systems built with public funds - if, in short, you do not live in a cave cut off from all society - you have ALREADY accepted the premise that the government should use tax money to improve people's lives. You don't like it? Go live in that cave and shit in a bucket. No one will miss you.

Demonstrates the point quite well.

We build up our infrastructure as a nation through public funds. Arguably, more of that could be done through private funds, but let's just stick with where we're at.

This does not translate into helping paraplegic mentally deficient people so they can continue to do absolutely nothing to improve our overall standard of living.

Personal standards of living should be personal. If you want more than the bare basics, once again, GET OFF YOUR ASS AND WORK FOR IT.

If you don't, I for one won't miss you.

[Treznor]

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Sounds like you don't understand contracts. Perhaps you should work on that.

Yes, because people who are going through a crisis are going to have all the resources and stability they need to sue multi-billion dollar corporates for breach of contract. That makes perfect sense.

[Czardas]

Wait, you think people should be judged on what they contribute to the state, but you don't think the state should have any power to govern its citizens the way it best sees fit?

Someone who cannot work or in anyway care for themselves, is no good to themselves, to me, or to society.

There is no difference between society and the state.

Society has decided that taxes must be levied upon those who make it up. (Even government officials pay taxes.) Society has decided that those taxes are to be used to improve the lives of those who live in it; essentially, instead of paying a private company to build roads, defend the nation, solve crimes, etc., you're paying the state to do it. Society has decided that some of the money will go to support the unemployed or sick, hopefully encouraging them to find jobs. It doesn't work all of the time, but it does work often enough that society hasn't yet seen fit to overturn that decision.

Don't like it? Find another society that supports what you believe in.

[RoI2]

Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem?

Yes. And you being stupid and boring is a problem for me too.

[Kryozerkia]

Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem? Should I be subsidizing the stupid, ugly, boring, or what have you?

Fuck. No.

I guess it's safe to say that every Conservative are just cold-hearted dicks.

Warned for trolling.

Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem?

Yes. And you being stupid and boring is a problem for me too.

RoI2, knock off the playground insults. If you can't be civil, don't bother posting.

[Mackedamia]

If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it.

prove this claim

Excuse me?

If you want something, then find the means to acquire it yourself. It's fairly simple. Even the worst paying job in America will allow you to eat, clothe yourself in the most basic of ways and access some sort of shelter. If you desire goods or services beyond that, then work harder.[/quote]


I think that this idea makes sense, heal thcare in my opinion, should only cover major health problems, cover heart attacks, sezures(if it is the first time you get one) strokes, most cancer treatments, and the inital costs of repairing a broken bone. I don't want to pay for little jimmys' flu shot because his mom threw there money away on material posetions for her son when she cheated on his father!

[Hiddenrun]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. What you posted didn't make any sense, I was just correcting, not trying to make any kind of point.

Try reading the words again.

Not everyone is intelligent.
Not everyone is physically capable.

Luckily there are jobs for stupid people, and people who lack physical capabilities. If stupid, or physically incapable people want to complain and suggest that they are entitled to more, well that's just tough. You get what you earn, and if you don't have it in you to earn much, that's your lot. I fail to see why we should be subsidizing the short comings of others.

'Bad things' can happen to anyone.

Yes, and intelligent people prepare for this.

You pay taxes for roads, police, national disaster relief, a military, and probably space programs.

Paying for people to sit on welfare doesn't provide me with a place to drive or draw potable water from, now does it?

I seriously don't understand why humans ought not to help other humans out.

Then let those that wish to help out others go ahead and do so. I help the people I choose to help. Everyone else can frankly fuck off and get their hands out of my wallet.

[Niicha]

I have a few questions for Hiddenrun, and I apologize if it detracts. How do you feel about your taxes paying for things such as military, fire, police and garbage services? Do you not believe in some sort of social contract or any other societal obligations?

I think pretty much all of these things can be taken care of by private enterprise, with sensitive areas such as policing or military having some government oversight.

So, as I understand it, most, if not all industry should be privatized, including police and military but having moderate regulation by the government. Am I understanding your position so far?

Now, the questions.
Would the private garbage collectors be subject to regulation? Ex. Making it illegal to dump leaky car batteries on their privately(?) owned dumps.
Would private fire companies protect areas such as national forests and public roads? If yes, who would pay for this? Also, would fire companies be subject to regulation/held to an enforced standard? Ex. Regulations prohibiting them from starting large, profitable fires. Would fire companies be required to control a fire in a house that does not pay for the services?
What sort of control would government have over military and police? Would the president still be commander in chief even if he over rode the private interests of the military? Would you object to rogue military companies forming? I.E. The hiring of mercenaries.
Again, apologies for the detract.

[Reagan States]

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Sounds like you don't understand contracts. Perhaps you should work on that.

Yes, because people who are going through a crisis are going to have all the resources and stability they need to sue multi-billion dollar corporates for breach of contract. That makes perfect sense.

Contract law does to be simplified.

[Barringtonia]

Everyone else can frankly fuck off and get their hands out of my wallet.

What a shame you live in the real world,

[Hamilay]

I think that this idea makes sense, heal thcare in my opinion, should only cover major health problems, cover heart attacks, sezures(if it is the first time you get one) strokes, most cancer treatments, and the inital costs of repairing a broken bone. I don't want to pay for little jimmys' flu shot because his mom threw there money away on material posetions for her son when she cheated on his father!

... this is the most arbitrary definition of healthcare I've ever heard. Did you just pick tabloid news headlines at random to decide what a proper healthcare program should manage?

This doesn't even make sense. How is health insurance supposed to cover a first seizure only?

[Buxtahatche]

People can't stop living off the Gov't tit.
If they got independent and uppity, then the Gov't wouldn't have any way to control them, and they might take issue with all the unconstitutional BS that gets pulled in DC. Who knows, they might even revolt and demand a government that acts in accordance to the Constitution for a change!

If the Gov't can get people more dependent on its services, however, its existence is assured. So of course a Gov't that wants to abuse the rights of its people is always going to offer them more... so they think less. This is why I trust Democrats less than Republicans- both are bad choices, but at least the Republicans don't advocate me giving up choices about things like retirement, health care, and charitable donations.

[Trippoli]

So Hiddenrun, this is your America?

Everyone is on their own, walking the same path to success, you see someone nearby collapse, dying. What do you do? Sounds like you walk on by, and you do.

As you march on, more and more people drop like flies. Until finally, YOU drop. You cry for helps and everybody ignores you, just walks on by. Because your "too Fat, or lazy, or stupid." Is that what YOU want?

[Duetopia]

prove to me that one should not have access to things they can't afford, because i don't believe you.

The alternative is called "theft". You can acquire "stuff" through theft. But the rules of civil society demand that such acquisition be resisted.

false dilemma. clearly there are other options - they exist right now.

I think you meant "false dichotomy". No dilemma was presented. The "it's happening right now" argument doesn't work. We all tolerate a certain level of criminal activity (even on behalf of the government). Most of the time we just dismiss it as price of doing business of living. But it's important to recognize which activity is criminal (eg, theft) so that it's clear that steps will be taken to stop it.

[Non Aligned States]

If you want something, then find the means to acquire it yourself. It's fairly simple. Even the worst paying job in America will allow you to eat, clothe yourself in the most basic of ways and access some sort of shelter. If you desire goods or services beyond that, then work harder.

Oh really? And where are these extra hours in the day going to come from? One 8 hour shift job that lets you earn subsistence wage doesn't mean you'll be better off if you work 16 hour days.

No, it's arrogant and stupid not to plan for the worst.

It's good to see that you're willing to be honest in describing yourself, being a poster child for lack of worst case planning, since you clearly have not planned for the worse to happen to you. Lose your job, your house and your finances, stuck with minimum wage jobs and cancer or other terminal disease which has a $200,000 bill monthly to treat. I imagine you've never planned for that.

[Czardas]

prove this.

Oh spare me. Don't you have some Marx to read?

jefferson would do just as well on this point. 'your stuff' is only yours because society says so. society can change the terms through legitimate democratic processes. you got a job on the understanding that your pay would include taxes, so it is no complaint at all to say that you are being taxed. you could try to argue that you shouldn't be taxed or that tax money shouldn't be used in certain ways. but the claim that stuff is yours does not ground either of those claims.

come on man, present arguments.

Not at all. Your property cannot be constitutionally taken away without due process. Thus US Constitution recognizes private ownership as a natural right. Notice that is recognizes it as such -- not establishes it as such.

Where does that "natural right" come from, then? I assume, if it's a natural right, it can't be something James Madison just pulled out of his ass; it's something inherent in the nature of the universe or something.

The only taxes that the Constitution authorizes the government to collect are in order to fulfill its mandate. No new mandates may be established without a constitutional amendment (due to limitations set forth in the 10th amendment). Income tax may be imposed because of the 16h amendment, but it doesn't change the fact that what government does with the money may not be more than what the government is required to do.

Or to put it even more plainly, the 10th amendment forbids the government from doing anything that the government is not required to do by the Constitution. That includes (without limitation) prohibition on attempting to establish social justice. That is not to say that the government has to forestall social justice, it just means that it may not do anything to work towards it.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Thus, while the federal government cannot levy taxes that are not in fulfilment of its mandates, state governments can do it perfectly well.

What is the difference between the federal government and a state government, on a practical level?

[Buxtahatche]

So Hiddenrun, this is your America?

Everyone is on their own, walking the same path to success, you see someone nearby collapse, dying. What do you do? Sounds like you walk on by, and you do.

As you march on, more and more people drop like flies. Until finally, YOU drop. You cry for helps and everybody ignores you, just walks on by. Because your "too Fat, or lazy, or stupid." Is that what YOU want?

Sure is. In fact, that's ALL I want. To succeed of fail BY MY OWN MERIT. To rise to the level of my ability and stick there. That is what America is about. Let a man's friends help him when he is down- the government has no business mandating charity.

[Poliwanacraca]

This does not translate into helping paraplegic mentally deficient people so they can continue to do absolutely nothing to improve our overall standard of living.

I just want to pause to note the hilarity of this line of argument. Apparently, we are to judge people's worth to society by how much they contribute to "our overall standard of living." So what does that make the worth of someone who wants to hoard money for himself rather than contributing to others' well-being?

[Ourobora]

I apologise if my assumption is incorrect, and you are not in fact from the US at all. However:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

(emphasis mine)


Somehow, I feel like your constitution covers it.

[Duetopia]

Everyone else can frankly fuck off and get their hands out of my wallet.

What a shame you live in the real world,

Spoken like a true mobster.

[RoI2]

Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem?

Yes. And you being stupid and boring is a problem for me too.

RoI2, knock off the playground insults. If you can't be civil, don't bother posting.

So, I can't say that and he can spew his shit all over the place?

[Trippoli]

So Hiddenrun, this is your America?

Everyone is on their own, walking the same path to success, you see someone nearby collapse, dying. What do you do? Sounds like you walk on by, and you do.

As you march on, more and more people drop like flies. Until finally, YOU drop. You cry for helps and everybody ignores you, just walks on by. Because your "too Fat, or lazy, or stupid." Is that what YOU want?

Sure is. In fact, that's ALL I want. To succeed of fail BY MY OWN MERIT. To rise to the level of my ability and stick there. That is what America is about. Let a man's friends help him when he is down- the government has no business mandating charity.

WHAT IF YOU FALL? Who will help you? are you just going to say you failed and die in the ghettos lonely?

Not many people get the opportunity to start over because of people like Hiddenrun..