Stop expecting others to take care of you.

[A White Hawk]

If you want something, then find the means to acquire it yourself. It's fairly simple. Even the worst paying job in America will allow you to eat, clothe yourself in the most basic of ways and access some sort of shelter. If you desire goods or services beyond that, then work harder.

Well when you grow up, move out of your parents house and actually have to get a job then we will see how your righteous demand for self-sufficiency stands up to scrutiny.

Or go to college, get a good job when you graduate (Which is hard to do now) and have a good life.

[New Heliopolis]

It's not just the whining about needing socialized medicine, it's the entire sense of entitlement that people seem to have. It should be very simple. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. Period. If someone wants to get it for you, great. I don't happen to care about you at all, and I resent greatly the belief that I should somehow pay for you to access anything you can't get on your own.

Where do you think this notion came from? This lack of self-sufficiency? Are children being too coddled by their parents? Is it wider social conditioning, top down? For those of you living on the public teat, what makes you think you should be doing so?

There is something caled a "work requirement". Insert that and your arguement is moot.

[Ravea]

What if you physically can't?

There are plenty of jobs that do not require physical effort. Find one.

Ha. Right. Plenty of jobs for paraplegics out there, right?

What if you are not mentally able?

[Free Soviets]

that's not an argument, that's just the original claim. you are making an 'ought' claim and have yet to ground it in anything. logical argument, please.

It's mine.

prove this.

[Hiddenrun]

The government has a great arguement, a much bigger barrel.

After all, if that's the arguement you're using then it's obviously the only languge you understand.

Ah but you see, in a democratic system, the will of the people is paramount. And of course, if the will of the people is to live off the largess of others, then the government will create opportunities for them to do so.

Down the line, however, this enforced dependency is going to turn around and bite you in the ass. Not me. Because I actually prepare for the bad times. When the government simply does not have the means to pull your fat from the fire, it'll be you who suffers for your sense of entitlement.

[A White Hawk]

What if you physically can't?

There are plenty of jobs that do not require physical effort. Find one.

Ha. Right. Plenty of jobs for paraplegics out there, right?

What if you are not mentally able?

Then you actually have an valid reason.

[Treznor]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

It's also profit-based. They therefore have a vested interest in taking money from people, while giving back as little as possible. That's not help so much as exploitation. Got a little risk, because you had a traffic ticket or a previous illness? They won't cover you the way you're likely to need it. Too many problems? They'll help you so far and no farther.

Sorry, profit-based assistance tends to fall far short of the mark. I'm looking for compassion, not greed.

[Post-Unity Terra]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

[A White Hawk]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Same with good doctors when you have a public insurance plan

[Hiddenrun]

Shit does happen, and sometimes family and friends can't afford or don't exist to bail out those that fall on hard times.

Then you shouldn't be living beyond your means, and 'means' includes the possible support of friends and family. If you choose to have children without being quite certain how you will afford their upbringing, including possible medical bills, then you have taken a risk. It may pan out, or it may not, but you took that risk on your own.

If you want to ameliorate the risk, then you look for alternatives to friends and family. LIKE INSURANCE.

[Classical Liberal]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Some, but hey guess what, you can leave their company!

[SD_Film Artists]

If you are working class and you get an unexpected and costly illness, there is simply no way you are not going to be fianically ruined by it.

Say a guy and his wife with highschool eduation work 40 hours a week, make 800$ a week between the two of them, and their goddamn 4 year old has leukemia. The treatments run into the hundreds of thousands and the kid dies anyways.

Thats some serious hardship that they could never have predicted or have been prepared for. Their insurance companies refuse to pay for it and they spend the rest of their lives working off interest on their debt.

Seems like their could be a more elegant arrangement then that.

Paying the cost of the kid's treatment isn't going to stop the kid from dying anyway, now is it?

Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes you need your family and friends to help you out, and great if they do. I, however, don't feel responsible to ensure the financial stability of you or yours. Once again, that is your job.

Some crimes get unsolved, but we still have a police force. Please explain why the NHS (or an American equivalent) isn't the 3rd emergency service that it is.

Say you get burnt (but still live) in a house fire. The government will pay to have your house saved and the arsonist arrested, but you'll have to reach for your credit card if you want to get your dying family to hospital!? How the f*** does that work out? Its not about whether you're able to pay for it or not, it's the principle that if you're in dire trouble you have a right to get the necessary help, just as you should expect for the police/military to rescue you from a hostage situation without getting charged for it afterwards.

Whether you can afford to pay for it or not is completely missing the point.

The only thing I don't agree with is stomach-pumped drunkards on a friday/staturday night getting helped for their self-inflected wounds. However, that issue deserves its very own thread.

Edit: how the f***did this get onto page 2?

[Fartsniffage]

You can achieve the quality of life you work for. If all you want to do is dig ditches for a shit wage, then have at it. If you want more than that, then get off your ass, and find a way to achieve that goal. Sitting around hoping someone is going to throw you a bone is frankly contemptible. Those with drive, ambition and intelligence, make it. The lazy, stupid and slack can stay where they are, at the lower rungs where they belong. Working shit jobs, rather than sucking away funds through welfare.
You see, I split up your nonsensical sentence because you seem to be making things up. Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem? Should I be subsidizing the stupid, ugly, boring, or what have you?

Fuck. No.

There is a big difference between subsidising the stupid and stopping them dying from easily curable or preventable diseases.

Also, you seem to have a very poor grasp of history, forcing groups of people into an underclass tends to have bad results for the wealthy.

What did I make up?

[Post-Unity Terra]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Same with good doctors when you have a public insurance plan

Really? I've never been denied treatment by the NHS.

[Hiddenrun]

Because when you've worked in a low paying job until you're 40 (and have managed somewhere to live, food each week, to pay the bills - the basics) and learn you've got MS, and can no longer preform your job properly, so they lay you off, therefore you no longer have your employer provided health insurance. And no job. So you spend your savings getting the medication you need to function to find a job. Funnily enough, they're hard to come by at the moment!

What do you suggest Ms. Green does now?

I could care less. Sounds like that's Ms. Green's problem.

I can give you a thousand sob stories. Are you going to give money to each sad sack who has a sob story for you?

You can go ahead. Life is full of risk, and hard times. That's reality. If you can't handle it, well that's your problem too.

[Niicha]

I have a few questions for Hiddenrun, and I apologize if it detracts. How do you feel about your taxes paying for things such as military, fire, police and garbage services? Do you not believe in some sort of social contract or any other societal obligations?

[RoI2]

I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

Why? The poor would do the same or worse if they had money.

What?

[Post-Unity Terra]

Because when you've worked in a low paying job until you're 40 (and have managed somewhere to live, food each week, to pay the bills - the basics) and learn you've got MS, and can no longer preform your job properly, so they lay you off, therefore you no longer have your employer provided health insurance. And no job. So you spend your savings getting the medication you need to function to find a job. Funnily enough, they're hard to come by at the moment!

What do you suggest Ms. Green does now?

I could care less. Sounds like that's Ms. Green's problem.

I think you mean couldn't care less.

[Treznor]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

Private insurance schemes have a nasty habit of telling you to fuck off when you need them.

Same with good doctors when you have a public insurance plan

You mean, like the way Stephen Hawking would have died under a public insurance plan?

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

So when your house is burning down, you wont be calling the fire department that everyone else paid for?

[Ourobora]

Same with good doctors when you have a public insurance plan

Not that I've found. Ever. Typically the private system in Australia will send the cases that won't generate any profit for them to the public system.

[Hiddenrun]

I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

I care about my family, my friends, my community. I work hard to contribute to their well being. I do not ask you to do so. I expect you have similar ties to your family, friends and community, and hopefully you do your part to help them out. Don't expect me to care about your people, when I have mine to worry about.

[Fartsniffage]

Ah but you see, in a democratic system, the will of the people is paramount. And of course, if the will of the people is to live off the largess of others, then the government will create opportunities for them to do so.

Down the line, however, this enforced dependency is going to turn around and bite you in the ass. Not me. Because I actually prepare for the bad times. When the government simply does not have the means to pull your fat from the fire, it'll be you who suffers for your sense of entitlement.

Ah, there's your error. You're mistaking me for a poor person with a low paying job.

Not everyone thinks the way you do.

[Barringtonia]

Some people are focused on efficiency, some are focused on equality.

Hiddenrun is the former, there's no argument against him given his premise is efficiency,

Luckily, we live in a democracy where, given the last election, more people are for equality.

Sucks to be Hiddenrun.

[Hiddenrun]

Well when you grow up, move out of your parents house and actually have to get a job then we will see how your righteous demand for self-sufficiency stands up to scrutiny.

Yes, it's much easier to pretend I'm some 13 year old sitting in my dad's basement. Acknowledging that I've been in the workplace now for much longer than you've been alive, that I've successfully raised and continue to raise children, and that I have never had to crawl to the welfare office for help might actually force you to think about the issue.