Stop expecting others to take care of you.

[Hiddenrun]

And you would have it if you needed it.

Is it not arrogant, and stupid, to assume that your personal circumstances will never change to the point where you need help from the government? And if this did happen would you really stick to your principles and refuse it?

No, it's arrogant and stupid not to plan for the worst. Too many people these days spend spend spend rather than save, because spending is more gratifying, and why bother saving when there's always a safety net?

The problem is, there won't always be a safety net. Especially for those coming after my generation. We learned how to plan for the worst, because the worst often happened. I don't think younger generations are learning this lesson. It's why you see such chaos during blackouts or natural disasters. People don't know how to take care of themselves anymore, they expect others to do it for them.

If something happens to me or anyone in my family, I have the resources to deal with it. What I don't need to do is worry about you or your family because frankly, that's your job.

[Hiddenrun]

What if you physically can't?

There are plenty of jobs that do not require physical effort. Find one.

[Post-Unity Terra]

What if you physically can't?

There are plenty of jobs that do not require physical effort. Find one.

I hear there are a lot of jobs in banking going unfilled right now.

[Fartsniffage]

Unfortunate; yes, deserving of sympathy; yes, deserving of having that footed by the taxpayers; no.

So who digs the ditches in this Republican paradise?

What?

The arguement seems to be that everyone can and should better themselves to the point where they can afford to deal with these problems themselves without any help from the government.

Lets assume that everyone does this forming a Republican paradise, who then does the low paying jobs that are required for society to function?

In essence, who digs the ditches?

[Free Soviets]

that does not demonstrate the truth of your claim. prove to me that one should not have access to things they can't afford, because i don't believe you.

How about, if you believe you are entitled to something you can't afford, you explain why the fuck we should buy it for you?

"I don't believe you, I think I should get things I can't afford" is a pretty stupid statement.

i'm making no argument. i'm demanding one from you. you do have one, right?

[Hiddenrun]

If you are working class and you get an unexpected and costly illness, there is simply no way you are not going to be fianically ruined by it.

Say a guy and his wife with highschool eduation work 40 hours a week, make 800$ a week between the two of them, and their goddamn 4 year old has leukemia. The treatments run into the hundreds of thousands and the kid dies anyways.

Thats some serious hardship that they could never have predicted or have been prepared for. Their insurance companies refuse to pay for it and they spend the rest of their lives working off interest on their debt.

Seems like their could be a more elegant arrangement then that.

Paying the cost of the kid's treatment isn't going to stop the kid from dying anyway, now is it?

Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes you need your family and friends to help you out, and great if they do. I, however, don't feel responsible to ensure the financial stability of you or yours. Once again, that is your job.

[Classical Liberal]

If you are working class and you get an unexpected and costly illness, there is simply no way you are not going to be fianically ruined by it.

Say a guy and his wife with highschool eduation work 40 hours a week, make 800$ a week between the two of them, and their goddamn 4 year old has leukemia. The treatments run into the hundreds of thousands and the kid dies anyways.

Thats some serious hardship that they could never have predicted or have been prepared for. Their insurance companies refuse to pay for it and they spend the rest of their lives working off interest on their debt.

Seems like their could be a more elegant arrangement then that.

Paying the cost of the kid's treatment isn't going to stop the kid from dying anyway, now is it?

Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes you need your family and friends to help you out, and great if they do. I, however, don't feel responsible to ensure the financial stability of you or yours. Once again, that is your job.

I like you.

[Hiddenrun]

The arguement seems to be that everyone can and should better themselves to the point where they can afford to deal with these problems themselves without any help from the government.

Lets assume that everyone does this forming a Republican paradise, who then does the low paying jobs that are required for society to function?

In essence, who digs the ditches?

Not everyone has the drive to educate themselves, or work up the corporate ladder. Some people are honestly too stupid or too lazy. Yet even for those people, who would otherwise just run to the welfare office, we have jobs. What's wrong with ditchdigging? If it pays enough for you to get the basics, then great! You're self-sufficient! And if ever you want more than what you have, you can work to get it.

If you're happy where you are, then by all means, stay there, digging our ditches.

[Post-Unity Terra]

The arguement seems to be that everyone can and should better themselves to the point where they can afford to deal with these problems themselves without any help from the government.

Lets assume that everyone does this forming a Republican paradise, who then does the low paying jobs that are required for society to function?

In essence, who digs the ditches?

Not everyone has the drive to educate themselves, or work up the corporate ladder. Some people are honestly too stupid or too lazy. Yet even for those people, who would otherwise just run to the welfare office, we have jobs. What's wrong with ditchdigging? If it pays enough for you to get the basics, then great! You're self-sufficient! And if ever you want more than what you have, you can work to get it.

If you're happy where you are, then by all means, stay there, digging our ditches.

I think I've identified a problem.

[Treznor]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

[Hiddenrun]

i'm making no argument. i'm demanding one from you. you do have one, right?

Yes, I've made it. You are not entitled to my money just so you can buy things you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

If you want to reach into my pocket, it's you who had better have a good argument, because otherwise, you'd be staring down a barrel.

You can demand all you want, but until you justify your desire to take resources away from those of us who have earned them, in order to give them to those who haven't raised a finger to get said resources themselves, then I'm going to have to ignore your pathetic pleas.

[Fartsniffage]

]Not everyone has the drive to educate themselves, or work up the corporate ladder. Some people are honestly too stupid or too lazy. Yet even for those people, who would otherwise just run to the welfare office, we have jobs. What's wrong with ditchdigging? If it pays enough for you to get the basics, then great! You're self-sufficient! And if ever you want more than what you have, you can work to get it.

If you're happy where you are, then by all means, stay there, digging our ditches.

So you freely admit that the whole idea that everyone can achieve a reasonable quality of life under your system is bullshit but you have no problem with people suffering due to a simple accident of birth?

[Free Soviets]

i'm making no argument. i'm demanding one from you. you do have one, right?

Yes, I've made it. You are not entitled to my money just so you can buy things you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

that's not an argument, that's just the original claim. you are making an 'ought' claim and have yet to ground it in anything. logical argument, please.

[Fartsniffage]

Yes, I've made it. You are not entitled to my money just so you can buy things you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

If you want to reach into my pocket, it's you who had better have a good argument, because otherwise, you'd be staring down a barrel.

You can demand all you want, but until you justify your desire to take resources away from those of us who have earned them, in order to give them to those who haven't raised a finger to get said resources themselves, then I'm going to have to ignore your pathetic pleas.

The government has a great arguement, a much bigger barrel.

After all, if that's the arguement you're using then it's obviously the only languge you understand.

[Classical Liberal]

]Not everyone has the drive to educate themselves, or work up the corporate ladder. Some people are honestly too stupid or too lazy. Yet even for those people, who would otherwise just run to the welfare office, we have jobs. What's wrong with ditchdigging? If it pays enough for you to get the basics, then great! You're self-sufficient! And if ever you want more than what you have, you can work to get it.

If you're happy where you are, then by all means, stay there, digging our ditches.

So you freely admit that the whole idea that everyone can achieve a reasonable quality of life under your system is bullshit but you have no problem with people suffering due to a simple accident of birth?

Accidents (being mental retardation and such) are unfortunate, yes, but, they're not my, or hen's problem.

[Hiddenrun]

Perhaps I should clarify something. It's not that I expect others to take care of me, although sometimes that's helpful. It's that I expect others to help me take care of others. It's about compassion for more than just myself, even the people too selfish to see beyond their own noses.

Not everything can be predicted, and you can't always save up to handle all the rainy days that can come by. Not everyone is fortunate enough to either avoid the bad luck or be able to save enough to overcome the bad luck. At which point they're going to need help, and I'd rather that help come without having to beg some biased third interest.

It's about compassion for more than just yourself.

Yes, and when you can't save up for every unexpected downturn, you have private enterprises to access which provide something called insurance. You pay a premium, based on assessed levels of risk, and this way you are able to access pooled funds if necessary.

The wonderful thing about insurance is that it's voluntary. If you want others to help you take care of people, then by all means, join them in contributing premiums.

Forcing me to pay into your common pot, however, is not justifiable. I do not choose to help you help others. I have compassion for all sorts of people who aren't me. You, and millions of others just like you, are not on that list. Do you really think that you'll get there because you support forcing me to 'help you help others'?

There is no excuse if you are too foolish to access the many private insurance schemes out there.

[Virtud Tierra]

Paying the cost of the kid's treatment isn't going to stop the kid from dying anyway, now is it?

Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes you need your family and friends to help you out, and great if they do. I, however, don't feel responsible to ensure the financial stability of you or yours. Once again, that is your job.

Shit does happen, and sometimes family and friends can't afford or don't exist to bail out those that fall on hard times.

Society really does struggle when random events can bring ruin on the working class. Thats why we have social security, the military and medicare. It is the function of the government to look out for the well-being of its constituents, after all. I don't believe in allowing generations of people to be idle and live off government money, but I do think it is within a nation's best interest to provide some sort of stability in the lives of the people that live there.

[SD_Film Artists]

If you are working class and you get an unexpected and costly illness, there is simply no way you are not going to be fianically ruined by it.

Say a guy and his wife with highschool eduation work 40 hours a week, make 800$ a week between the two of them, and their goddamn 4 year old has leukemia. The treatments run into the hundreds of thousands and the kid dies anyways.

Thats some serious hardship that they could never have predicted or have been prepared for. Their insurance companies refuse to pay for it and they spend the rest of their lives working off interest on their debt.

Seems like their could be a more elegant arrangement then that.

Paying the cost of the kid's treatment isn't going to stop the kid from dying anyway, now is it?

Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes you need your family and friends to help you out, and great if they do. I, however, don't feel responsible to ensure the financial stability of you or yours. Once again, that is your job.

Some crimes get unsolved, but we still have a police force. Please explain why the NHS (or an American equivalent) isn't the 3rd emergency service that it is.

Say you get burnt (but still live) in a house fire. The government will pay to have your house saved and the arsonist arrested, but you'll have to reach for your credit card if you want to get your dying family to hospital!? How the f*** does that work out? Its not about whether you're able to pay for it or not, it's the principle that if you're in dire trouble you have a right to get the necessary help, just as you should expect for the police/military to rescue you from a hostage situation without getting charged for it afterwards.

Whether you can afford to pay for it or not is completely missing the point.

[Ourobora]

Because when you've worked in a low paying job until you're 40 (and have managed somewhere to live, food each week, to pay the bills - the basics) and learn you've got MS, and can no longer preform your job properly, so they lay you off, therefore you no longer have your employer provided health insurance. And no job. So you spend your savings getting the medication you need to function to find a job. Funnily enough, they're hard to come by at the moment!

What do you suggest Ms. Green does now?

[Hiddenrun]

So you freely admit that the whole idea that everyone can achieve a reasonable quality of life under your system is bullshit

You can achieve the quality of life you work for. If all you want to do is dig ditches for a shit wage, then have at it. If you want more than that, then get off your ass, and find a way to achieve that goal. Sitting around hoping someone is going to throw you a bone is frankly contemptible. Those with drive, ambition and intelligence, make it. The lazy, stupid and slack can stay where they are, at the lower rungs where they belong. Working shit jobs, rather than sucking away funds through welfare.

but you have no problem with people suffering due to a simple accident of birth?

You see, I split up your nonsensical sentence because you seem to be making things up. Accident of birth? You're right, it's unfair that some people are born stupid, ugly, boring, or any number of unpleasant and undesired adjectives. Is that my problem? Should I be subsidizing the stupid, ugly, boring, or what have you?

Fuck. No.

[Classical Liberal]

Because when you've worked in a low paying job until you're 40 (and have managed somewhere to live, food each week, to pay the bills - the basics) and learn you've got MS, and can no longer preform your job properly, so they lay you off, therefore you no longer have your employer provided health insurance. And no job. So you spend your savings getting the medication you need to function to find a job. Funnily enough, they're hard to come by at the moment!

What do you suggest Ms. Green does now?

Continue looking.

[RoI2]

I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

[A White Hawk]

I can tell you have money...





...and you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. Show some compassion.

Why? The poor would do the same or worse if they had money.

[Hiddenrun]

that's not an argument, that's just the original claim. you are making an 'ought' claim and have yet to ground it in anything. logical argument, please.

It's mine.

If you want it, you need to convince me you should have it.

It doesn't get more logical than that, I'm afraid.


Not that I expect you to find a point. I'm sure this 'logical' wanking is gratifying for you in and of itself.

[Ismon]

If you want something, then find the means to acquire it yourself. It's fairly simple. Even the worst paying job in America will allow you to eat, clothe yourself in the most basic of ways and access some sort of shelter. If you desire goods or services beyond that, then work harder.

Well when you grow up, move out of your parents house and actually have to get a job then we will see how your righteous demand for self-sufficiency stands up to scrutiny.