NATION

PASSWORD

Would it be possible for Jesus to die?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Would it be possible for Jesus to die?

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:46 pm

Assuming the Bible is correct that Jesus was man and God, and that he was one of three parts of a triune God, was it really possible for him to die? It has been established that most Gods (with the exception of Norse off the top of my head, there are probably more) are immortal. I am assuming it is also this way with this God, since he is often referred to as an eternal King, or living God.

So if that is true, then how was it possible for Jesus to truly have died on the cross? Here's the verse I have issue with:
[quote=The Gospel of Luke]44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47 The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 48 When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away. 49 But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.[/quote]

Other gospels simply say that he cried out in a loud voice and then gave up his spirit, but this one is the one that specifies to who. He gave it to himself.

Since Jesus is part of a Trinity that makes up one God, then that would mean that only one third of a God gave up his life and soul which went immediately back to himself. Where else would it go? The Bible goes on to specify later that he was fighting Satan after that, assuming that God the Father (another part of one God) condemned a third of himself to hell where he decided to kill Satan (by crushing his head, no less, which is odd because after that there are mentions to Satan that imply he is still alive, kicking, and not even in hell at all, but rather "prowling the earth like a lion looking for souls to devour"). He was also resurrected (by himself).

Of course, one can argue that he did die...the human part of him died, and that was enough. But as the Gospel points out numerous times, Jesus is not fully man. He is both God and man. Is it possible to just kill that part? And is it possible that that part was enough to atone for the sins of all beings?

But all counterarguments I've thought of all lead back to this basic question: is it really death if only part of you died? I don't think so, but I'm interested in hearing a possible explanation for this paradox.
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Nightkill the Emperor
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 88776
Founded: Dec 28, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:48 pm

He didn't really die. He did come back three days later, after all.
Hi! I'm Khan, your local misanthropic Indian.
I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith.
P2TM RP Discussion Thread
If you want a good rp, read this shit.
Tiami is cool.
Nat: Night's always in some bizarre state somewhere between "intoxicated enough to kill a hair metal lead singer" and "annoying Mormon missionary sober".

Swith: It's because you're so awesome. God himself refreshes the screen before he types just to see if Nightkill has written anything while he was off somewhere else.

Monfrox wrote:
The balkens wrote:
# went there....

It's Nightkill. He's been there so long he rents out rooms to other people at a flat rate, but demands cash up front.

User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:49 pm

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He didn't really die. He did come back three days later, after all.

Yes, but to be able to come back, you have to die, right? Otherwise you have nothing to come back from.
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Nationstatelandsville
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 70969
Founded: Apr 27, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Nationstatelandsville » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:50 pm

I've always interpreted it as Jesus chose to die so he could become part of God himself. Of course, I'm not a Christian, so...

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He didn't really die. He did come back three days later, after all.


"Jesus! I thought you had died!"

"PETER, YOU ASS! I TOLD YOU I WAS JUST NAPPING AND YOU BURIED ME ANYWAYS!"

"Oops, uh... MARY DID IT!"
"Then I was fertilized and grew wise;
From a word to a word I was led to a word,
From a work to a work I was led to a work."
- Odin, Hávamál 138-141, the Poetic Edda, as translated by Dan McCoy.

I enjoy meta-humor and self-deprecation. Annoying, right?

Goodbye.

User avatar
Blazedtown
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15177
Founded: Jun 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Blazedtown » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:50 pm

He's the future god emperor of mankind. If he were to die, then that would cause a tear in the warp, creating massive warp storms that could engulf the galaxy and destroy the xenos.
Go Vikings.
Sunnyvale, straight the fuck up.

User avatar
Nightkill the Emperor
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 88776
Founded: Dec 28, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He didn't really die. He did come back three days later, after all.

Yes, but to be able to come back, you have to die, right? Otherwise you have nothing to come back from.

I suppose you can't die if parts of you are still there. It's like Harbinger's Collector drones dying, but the Reaper himself staying safely in dark space.
Hi! I'm Khan, your local misanthropic Indian.
I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith.
P2TM RP Discussion Thread
If you want a good rp, read this shit.
Tiami is cool.
Nat: Night's always in some bizarre state somewhere between "intoxicated enough to kill a hair metal lead singer" and "annoying Mormon missionary sober".

Swith: It's because you're so awesome. God himself refreshes the screen before he types just to see if Nightkill has written anything while he was off somewhere else.

Monfrox wrote:
The balkens wrote:
# went there....

It's Nightkill. He's been there so long he rents out rooms to other people at a flat rate, but demands cash up front.

User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:58 pm

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:
Sunny Marionette wrote:Yes, but to be able to come back, you have to die, right? Otherwise you have nothing to come back from.

I suppose you can't die if parts of you are still there. It's like Harbinger's Collector drones dying, but the Reaper himself staying safely in dark space.

See, but I wonder if it goes back to the paradox of the Trinity. Does it?
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17480
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:03 pm

Depends on the definition of die, if it's the extinction of mortal life then sure, if it's the extinction of existence itself then no.
Last edited by Bombadil on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

User avatar
Robert Magoo
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Apr 22, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Robert Magoo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:08 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He didn't really die. He did come back three days later, after all.

Yes, but to be able to come back, you have to die, right? Otherwise you have nothing to come back from.

The physical body is separate from the spirit. His spirit didn't die.
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.33

Moral Compass- Rationalist (Q1): 8,9.9

Build up your wealth and give it away, but don't let the state take it. Help those in need and love your neighbor as yourself.

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 202536
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:09 pm

He did, you know. But was 'resurrected' in 3 days.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:12 pm

Robert Magoo wrote:
Sunny Marionette wrote:Yes, but to be able to come back, you have to die, right? Otherwise you have nothing to come back from.

The physical body is separate from the spirit. His spirit didn't die.

Is it possible for one's spirit to die?

The Bible's answers are...conflicting. Some believe that hell is actually your spirit ceasing to exist (the alternative is the fiery lake). It's not sure which is a metaphor. However, if hell is the one where your spirit ceases to exist as part of "total seperation from god," then God would've had to make part of himself...gone.

But, if a spirit cannot die, then did God really sacrifice himself for sinners? Because the sacrifice ends when he gives his spirit up to himself. If all it was was an immense amount of pain, then wouldn't it have ended before he "died?"
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Syvorji
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7996
Founded: Oct 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Syvorji » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:12 pm

I think it is, that he died, and was reborn into George Washington over a millenia and 770 years after.

User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:He did, you know. But was 'resurrected' in 3 days.

How, is my question. How was it possible?
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72174
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:Assuming the Bible is correct that Jesus was man and God,

Bad premise in the very first fucking sentence.

Biblically, it is never claimed that Jesus was both man and God. In fact, it's pretty obvious that Jesus was a creature inferior to God, although still powerful in his own right. The fact that modern "christians" believe it does not make it biblically stated.

Since your premise in the very first sentence was bad, your whole argument, based on that premise, can be thrown out as irrelevant.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 202536
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:He did, you know. But was 'resurrected' in 3 days.

How, is my question. How was it possible?


Because he was the son of God. A powerful creature in his own right but still separate from God.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Sunny Marionette
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1634
Founded: Feb 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Sunny Marionette » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:31 pm

Galloism wrote:
Sunny Marionette wrote:Assuming the Bible is correct that Jesus was man and God,

Bad premise in the very first fucking sentence.

Biblically, it is never claimed that Jesus was both man and God. In fact, it's pretty obvious that Jesus was a creature inferior to God, although still powerful in his own right. The fact that modern "christians" believe it does not make it biblically stated.

Since your premise in the very first sentence was bad, your whole argument, based on that premise, can be thrown out as irrelevant.

So then if Jesus was just a human, that would make it all right?
Formerly known as WWIIHG
Add 2357 to post count and three years to the age.
Religion: Zen Buddhist
Political Affiliation: None
Political Beliefs:Liberal most of the time

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:One time in India, I managed to draw an elaborate battle scene in the sand with my piss. Granted, my friends aided me in this matter, but we finished with Darth Vader force choking a random Jedi. It was one of the greatest achievements of our lives.

User avatar
Haruhiist Suzumiya
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 21
Founded: Jul 24, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Haruhiist Suzumiya » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:33 pm

Its Magic. He Doesnt Gotta Explain *. XD

User avatar
Robert Magoo
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Apr 22, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Robert Magoo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Robert Magoo wrote:The physical body is separate from the spirit. His spirit didn't die.

Is it possible for one's spirit to die?

The Bible's answers are...conflicting. Some believe that hell is actually your spirit ceasing to exist (the alternative is the fiery lake). It's not sure which is a metaphor. However, if hell is the one where your spirit ceases to exist as part of "total seperation from god," then God would've had to make part of himself...gone.

But, if a spirit cannot die, then did God really sacrifice himself for sinners? Because the sacrifice ends when he gives his spirit up to himself. If all it was was an immense amount of pain, then wouldn't it have ended before he "died?"

I don't think it's really death of the spirit or intentional punishment. Separation from God would lead to horrible suffering, but not active punishment, or no longer existing.
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.33

Moral Compass- Rationalist (Q1): 8,9.9

Build up your wealth and give it away, but don't let the state take it. Help those in need and love your neighbor as yourself.

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72174
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:35 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Galloism wrote:Bad premise in the very first fucking sentence.

Biblically, it is never claimed that Jesus was both man and God. In fact, it's pretty obvious that Jesus was a creature inferior to God, although still powerful in his own right. The fact that modern "christians" believe it does not make it biblically stated.

Since your premise in the very first sentence was bad, your whole argument, based on that premise, can be thrown out as irrelevant.

So then if Jesus was just a human, that would make it all right?

Well, if Jesus is just a human, then yes - humans can die. In fact, all 100% of a human can die together (before you start describing to me the rate at which certain organs "die" after the body dies, I hate you all, NSG - you're not my real dad). Therefore, there's no issue if he was a human who died as to how he could die.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72174
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:36 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:
Robert Magoo wrote:The physical body is separate from the spirit. His spirit didn't die.

Is it possible for one's spirit to die?

The Bible's answers are...conflicting. Some believe that hell is actually your spirit ceasing to exist (the alternative is the fiery lake). It's not sure which is a metaphor. However, if hell is the one where your spirit ceases to exist as part of "total seperation from god," then God would've had to make part of himself...gone.

But, if a spirit cannot die, then did God really sacrifice himself for sinners? Because the sacrifice ends when he gives his spirit up to himself. If all it was was an immense amount of pain, then wouldn't it have ended before he "died?"

Well, the Bible does say "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die." That would certainly imply that the spirit, or soul, of a person is certainly mortal.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Bluth Corporation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6849
Founded: Apr 15, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bluth Corporation » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:37 pm

Indeed, we Christians reject such nonsense as the divinity of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity. Jesus died because he was a human being no different from you or I.
The Huge Mistake of Bluth Corporation
Capital: Newport Beach, Shostakovich | Starting Quarterback: Peyton Manning #18 | Company President: Michael Bluth

Champions of: World Bowl X


You should really be using Slackware

User avatar
Robert Magoo
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Apr 22, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Robert Magoo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:38 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:Indeed, we Christians reject such nonsense as the divinity of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity. Jesus died because he was a human being no different from you or I.

Your insistence on having your own definition for words makes communication very difficult.
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.33

Moral Compass- Rationalist (Q1): 8,9.9

Build up your wealth and give it away, but don't let the state take it. Help those in need and love your neighbor as yourself.

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72174
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:38 pm

Robert Magoo wrote:
Bluth Corporation wrote:Indeed, we Christians reject such nonsense as the divinity of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity. Jesus died because he was a human being no different from you or I.

Your insistence on having your own definition for words makes communication very difficult.

Which words?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 202536
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:Indeed, we Christians reject such nonsense as the divinity of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity. Jesus died because he was a human being no different from you or I.


That is debatable.

He was human, perfect, but human. And he did die. Only he was resurrected 3 days after.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Tlaceceyaya
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9932
Founded: Oct 17, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:40 pm

Sunny Marionette wrote:Assuming the Bible is correct


It seems we have reached a quandary.
Economic Left/Right -9.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -8.87
Also, Bonobos.
I am a market socialist, atheist, more to come maybe at some point
Dimitri Tsafendas wrote:You are guilty not only when you commit a crime, but also when you do nothing to prevent it when you have the chance.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alris, Arval Va, Bienenhalde, Dakran, Dazchan, Diarcesia, EuroStralia, Galloism, Gorvonia, Islamic Holy Sites, Juansonia, Kenowa, Koxor, Nantoraka, Port Caverton, Rary, Saiwana, Sarcassia, Soviet Haaregrad, The Most Grand Feline Empire, Union Hispanica de Naciones, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads