Is Socialism Un-American?

[Unchecked Expansion]

Total and complete socialism is definately Un-American ! Not only that socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried .... Capitalism is the best economy type by far.

What part of the constitution or the bill of rights would prohibit socialism? While trying to find it consider that public roads, schools, ect are socialist.

If we were meant to be Socialist then we would have been Socialist from the beginning. We have not been, so we were not meant to be. Socialism is a trap that doesn't work. It ruins economies, why would you want it, why should I want it .... nuff said!

You kept slaves, which, economically speaking, was very profitable.I notice the lack of slaves in America. You can't argue that America hasn't changed drastically since founding. Socialist ideas work very well in many countries, they can mix with a capitalist economy easily

[Pevisopolis]

Total and complete socialism is definately Un-American ! Not only that socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried .... Capitalism is the best economy type by far.

You're only looking at the obvious. Stalinism failed in the USSR, but there are still quite the shitload of socialist states. communities, etc. over the world. Some Communist ideologies have never been tested, some still exist. For instance, the Anarchist Communes of spain/catalonia, sweden, and so on.

Look. Beyond. The fucking. Obvious.

[LOL ANARCHY NUBZ]

Anarchy plx.

[Pevisopolis]

Anarchy plx.

My flag says it all.

[Konakimo]

Nah, Socialism is pretty universal for all countries. It's the reason they all end up so shitty :P, America is no exception.

Government meddling in a capitalist economy =/= socialism, if that's what you think.

What the hell was the bailout of all the failing businesses if not socialism gone bad!

See above. Did the bailout entail the working class of America seizing control of the means of production and ending capitalist class rule? The workers weren't even the ones who benefited most from the bailout and you have the nerve to call it socialism?

If you want, what the right sometimes refers to as capitalism, and the free market, you can't have a state.

On the contrary, socialism is in fact the only system which doesn't require a state. Under fascism, of course, nothing is emphasized more than the importance of the state, and under capitalism, some form of a state is necessary to enforce the protection of private property.

Fascists being Socialists.

Fascism originated, in fact, as a response to the growing socialist movement in Europe. It was essentially an attempt to guide capitalism in a more...sustainable direction.

Can we get a third, anarchist option?

Anarchism is fundamentally an opposition to hierarchy and thus it is incompatible with capitalism. Even Murray Rothbard acknowledged this.

Socialism is failure and failure is un-American.

What does it mean for an economic system to "fail"?

Socialism is a great system - for people who can't or wont think for themselves and wants the govenment to "take care of them".

I'll reiterate: a welfare state in a capitalist economy does not equate to socialism.

Capitalism has allowed the US to become the superpower it is today.

It has also impoverished the majority of the other countries on the planet. People talk of the supposed "failure" of socialism, but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America? 80% of the world's population lives on less than $10 a day. Is this not a failure?

Communist Russia collapsed. Now its capitalist Russia

To be fair, the "Communist Russia" you speak of had been undergoing a deliberate dismantling for nearly forty years prior to its collapse. Gorbachev even said that his "ambition was to liquidate communism."

Read the rest of the thread . . .the States already has socialism

Are the means of production owned and controlled collectively? Has private property been abolished?

Not so. I see nothing about Socialism trying to eliminate a 'classless society'. That's Communism.

"Socialism" and "communism" were used interchangeably by Marx & Engels. In Leninist theory, "socialism" is used to describe the "transitional stage" between capitalism and communism. Either way you look at it, socialism and communism are inseparable.

Like I stated above, Socialism is not trying to create a classless society so much as it is trying to make a society that has people who are hard-workers and dedicated in powerful positions. It makes classes, but those people who take over those classes deserved them, in the Socialist government's eyes.

As I said, "socialism" is generally used to refer to the "transitional stage" between capitalism and communism, i.e. working towards a classless, stateless society.

All communism is socialism - but not all socialism is communism.

See my above responses to Srork.

National Socialism, Italian Fascism, Bolshevikism, American Progressivism, and even Asian Communism were sister movements in a world-wide movement toward SOCIALISM.

See my earlier response to Srork. Fascism was neither a "sister movement" of capitalism nor socialism. It was established as an attempted "third way" between the two, but the fascists were far more adamantly opposed to socialism and sought to, in a sense, "save" capitalism by ironing out its wrinkles, so to speak. :P

except that if you actually look at National Socialism, it IS really socialist but plays on the patriotic feelings of Germans by highlighting Teutonic or Aryan superiority.

"We stand for the maintenance of private property."
- Adolf Hitler

Doesn't sound like a socialist to me.

Not only that socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried .... Capitalism is the best economy type by far.

Again, what does it mean for an economic system to "work" or to "fail"? Also, see my response to Kogler.

FDR was one of the greatest leaders in American history and some of his common-sense "New Deal" ideas would be considered very socialist by todays standards.

I agree with what you're saying, and sorry to nitpick, but in reality many of his "New Deal" ideas were more fascist in nature than socialist.

Socialism is a trap that doesn't work. It ruins economies[/i]

Seemed to have done allright for the USSR's economy back in the day.

[Takaram]

It's not necessarily un-American, but I wouldn't call it an intelligent long-term solution

[Tsa-la-gi Nation]

Eugene Debs. American Hero. Socialist. Nuff Said.

[Erich Dahmer]

Limiting the free flow of ideas, and the freedom of ideological choice is un-American.

And that's exactly what total statism does. It also happens in mixed or "fascist" economies and societies. If you believe that forcing everyone to abide by some barriers to entry and limits on personal freedom is okay then you are a fascist. If you think that only the state should decide anything and we are all just human resources for the benevolent and altruistic state then you are a fucking retard.

[Tech-gnosis]

I don't need a source for that, because thats not what I'm arguing (though I'm not even arguing, I'm just stating facts). All I said was that Henry Ford came up with the 8 hour work day 5 day work week and I explained why he did so.

But an 8-hour 5-day work week only became widespread after it became a law so it could be construed as a creation of socialism.

[Buxtahatche]

of course it is. If you're not rich and can't afford to live here you should go somewhere else, why should everyone have the chance to achieve what the wealthiest have?

No one should get anything if it's stolen from someone else.
Thieves should be punished- even those within the government.

Socialism is the opposite of everything the US Constitution says.
Try reading it now and again.

[Tech-gnosis]

Government meddling in a capitalist economy =/= socialism, if that's what you think.

Well that's the very definition some have for socialism. Any government intervention in the economy I mean. Its really a poorly defined term since there are so many definitions for it in a debate people are using the same one.

[Sibirsky]

I don't get what the big deal is: it's not like Capitalism did anything for America.

It only created, the largest economy in the world. Yep, that's nothing.

[Sibirsky]

I don't get what the big deal is: it's not like Capitalism did anything for America.

Arguably the most ignorant statement of this thread.

There is no argument. It is.

[Tech-gnosis]

Socialism is the opposite of everything the US Constitution says.

I doubt what you consider socialism and what self-described socialists consider socialism is the same thing.

[Sibirsky]

yes

Obama is Un-American.

Correct. How else do you explain this

To be serious, are you REALLY claiming that a hand gesture to a piece of cloth actually means something important? Really? How pathetic.
Just to make you feel better, he did start wearing a flag pin.


Honestly I don;t give a shit if something is "unAmerican" as long as it works.

So symbols are not important? yes he did start wearing the flag pin after the election. What was the problem with wearing it before the election?

[Arresyl]

America is already partially socialist. This is what so few people realize.

In a truly capitalist nation, there would be absolutely no interference by the government on the economy. This would also mean that there would be no minimum wage, no welfare, no social security, no health regulations... Nothing.

It is important that America remain partially socialist in order to protect its people... Though it must also remain partially capitalist, in order to protect the rights of its citizens.

[Dcarbo]

Henry Ford actually started the 8 hour day 5 day work week. He did this so workers would be more efficient and so they would have more time to go out and spend money. Energized Workers = More Efficient Factory, Workers With Time On Their Hands = Consumers. The 40 hour work was created as a result of Capitalism not Socialism. Henry Ford certainly wasn't a Socialist.

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the push for an 8 hour day predated Ford.

The labor movement, both international and in the U.S., started pushing for an 8 hour day in the 1800's. The movement started to pick up steam in the 1840's, and by the 1860's it was a fixture in most labor reform efforts, including those of organized labor. The Eight Hour Leagues started popping up in the U.S. some time in the 1860's.

Most industrialists stoutly resisted the idea of the 8 hour day until the New Deal.

The railroads got an 8 hour day with the Adamson Act of 1916, but most people had to wait until the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.

So while it's true that Ford was the first big industrialist to embrace it in 1914, most didn't follow suit; we had to change the law to get it.

I'm not sure if labor laws qualify as a socialist program, but people who are still lucky enough to work a 40 hour week should tip their hats to organized labor.

[The World Soviet Party]

China is not communist.

China is not socialist.

[Free Lofeta]

Un-American doesn't mean anything, it's just a phrase hacks throw around when they want to fire up emotions and win arguments.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

YOU'RE un-American for having to ask!
*Eats a fast car, shoots a woman, drives a communist and has sex with an apple pie*
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Really, though, there's nothing inherently anti-American about socialism. It's already here. Medicare and Medicade are both good programs, although not, obviously, made to cope with the load they're now facing.

[GetBert]

Remember the pledge of allegiance was written by a socialist.

[Tech-gnosis]

Remember the pledge of allegiance was written by a socialist.

The writer was the cousin of fellow socialist Edward Bellamy who wrote the socialist utopian novel Looking Backward.

[Pevisopolis]

Un-American doesn't mean anything, it's just a phrase hacks throw around when they want to fire up emotions and win arguments.

Exactly! I'm unpatriotic and damn proud of it.

[The Norse Hordes]

Total and complete socialism is definately Un-American ! Not only that socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried .... Capitalism is the best economy type by far.

What part of the constitution or the bill of rights would prohibit socialism? While trying to find it consider that public roads, schools, ect are socialist.

If we were meant to be Socialist then we would have been Socialist from the beginning.

Because it wasnt really a political theory at the time?

Socialism is a trap that doesn't work. It ruins economies, why would you want it, why should I want it ....

Western Europe disagrees.

nuff said!

If only it were that simple.

[The Norse Hordes]

So symbols are not important?

In the real world? No.