Another blogger killed by the Zetas.

[Tubbsalot]

1) The US doesn't have massive cartels taking control of areas, making theirselves known, then the government watches and does nothing.
2) The Mexicans are corrupt, and no matter how hard we help train them, they will always plain out suck, until Mexico gets it's shit together.
3) I never said they were something to dismiss, all I said was that even the most basic US soldier is far better than a former Mexican special forces member.
4) They are unorganized, they rule by fear, and threatening things they cannot deliver, and think that they are more powerful than everyone else.
5) The United States is screwing itself over, with help from Obama. The US needs to bring jobs back over here, and stop importing everything from Asia. This will make the US richer, allowing it to pay off it's debt quicker. Theres no chance in hell that Obama is being re-elected, so he might as well do something smart now. Posting more soldiers at the Mexican border and sending special forces in to deal with the cartels is a smart move. The "public opinion" is mostly made up of people like the "occupy" idiots, that hate the country and want to help destroy it. If they knew what was good for the US, they would not mind.

1. If that happens in Mexico, I suspect it's because they simply don't have the resources to deal with such an event. I am not aware of any such thing, though.
2. Patently false. I'm not even going to bother explaining why the Mexicans aren't doomed to an eternity of sucking.
3. They're really not. Any advantage the average soldier has over Mexican special forces is down to equipment and tactical support.
4. They are highly organised, as is readily obvious. If they weren't organised they wouldn't be able to participate in the drug trade, and they certainly wouldn't be the hubs of the drug trade. I'll also point out that they don't tend to make threats - they do things, and let those things speak for themselves. The decapitation of dozens of civilians is a good example.
5. Literally every thing you said here is utterly false, and irrelevant as well. I won't bother.

[Leminkana]

Okay, here are the problems with what you're saying:

1. The Mexican police and military have been doing their jobs, and nonetheless they haven't been successful in stemming gang activity. Gangs, like other forms of organised crime, are notoriously difficult to stamp out.

2. The US is already training Mexican security forces. I will note that it has been moderately successful in increasing the ability of Mexican government forces to combat the gangs.

3. Mexican special forces, like all special forces, are nothing to dismiss. This is particularly the case because you can't just roll into a town with tanks and start blowing everything up. The situation is more like Iraq, except the insurgents are special forces troops rather than brainwashed fourteen-year-olds.

4. The drug cartels are extremely formidable. Your assessment of them as "pussy ass" is uninformed, at best.

5. America cannot send troops into Mexico because a) they are dealing with their national debt, and therefore cannot afford another serious military deployment, b) public opinion would prohibit such a military deployment, and c) the next election is approaching and the Obama administration isn't brainfucked stupid enough to do anything so controversial right now.

1) The US doesn't have massive cartels taking control of areas, making theirselves known, then the government watches and does nothing.
2) The Mexicans are corrupt, and no matter how hard we help train them, they will always plain out suck, until Mexico gets it's shit together.
3) I never said they were something to dismiss, all I said was that even the most basic US soldier is far better than a former Mexican special forces member.
4) They are unorganized, they rule by fear, and threatening things they cannot deliver, and think that they are more powerful than everyone else.
5) The United States is screwing itself over, with help from Obama. The US needs to bring jobs back over here, and stop importing everything from Asia. This will make the US richer, allowing it to pay off it's debt quicker. Theres no chance in hell that Obama is being re-elected, so he might as well do something smart now. Posting more soldiers at the Mexican border and sending special forces in to deal with the cartels is a smart move. The "public opinion" is mostly made up of people like the "occupy" idiots, that hate the country and want to help destroy it. If they knew what was good for the US, they would not mind.

Mexico might need to get its shit together, but you need to get your shit straight.
While I do appreciate your patriotism, the naïveté you show in regards to the US military's basic training is staggering. The most basic soldier of the US Army could, and would, get his ass handed to him by ANY SpecOps from a anywhere, much less somewhere that we have helped train. If they were really that easy to deal with, we would've handled it much earlier. But it isn't. So we haven't. The most basic US soldier is not train much more than you or I in anything other than how to shoot, throw a grenade, BASIC hand-to-hand combat (if that), and tons of Army regulation codes and protocols. That's it. Yes, it's tough and grueling... To a civilian. Those guys could easily take out an entire batch of basic-train military. We have a tough military, but we aren't that tough. Make sure your sources aren't recruiting commercials and the cinema.

[West Failure]

The simplest way to defeat the zetas would be for Americans to stop buying drugs from them. As long as there is a huge market for drugs in the US, Mexico will suffer from both the criminal gangs and the antidrugs efforts of the US.

[Urceo-Carthage]

Mexico might need to get its shit together, but you need to get your shit straight.
While I do appreciate your patriotism, the naïveté you show in regards to the US military's basic training is staggering. The most basic soldier of the US Army could, and would, get his ass handed to him by ANY SpecOps from a anywhere, much less somewhere that we have helped train. If they were really that easy to deal with, we would've handled it much earlier. But it isn't. So we haven't. The most basic US soldier is not train much more than you or I in anything other than how to shoot, throw a grenade, BASIC hand-to-hand combat (if that), and tons of Army regulation codes and protocols. That's it. Yes, it's tough and grueling... To a civilian. Those guys could easily take out an entire batch of basic-train military. We have a tough military, but we aren't that tough. Make sure your sources aren't recruiting commercials and the cinema.

While I don't know what exactly the Army trains it's men to do, I do know that there is no way in hell that a third world country's FORMER special forces member can take out a better organized, better equipped and possibly better trained US soldier. As I said, I don't know exactly what the Army's training is like, but a US Marine or SEAL can easily take out these guys. I know SEALs are special forces. My sources are a bit more direct than commercials and movies.

[Leminkana]

1) The US doesn't have massive cartels taking control of areas, making theirselves known, then the government watches and does nothing.
2) The Mexicans are corrupt, and no matter how hard we help train them, they will always plain out suck, until Mexico gets it's shit together.
3) I never said they were something to dismiss, all I said was that even the most basic US soldier is far better than a former Mexican special forces member.
4) They are unorganized, they rule by fear, and threatening things they cannot deliver, and think that they are more powerful than everyone else.
5) The United States is screwing itself over, with help from Obama. The US needs to bring jobs back over here, and stop importing everything from Asia. This will make the US richer, allowing it to pay off it's debt quicker. Theres no chance in hell that Obama is being re-elected, so he might as well do something smart now. Posting more soldiers at the Mexican border and sending special forces in to deal with the cartels is a smart move. The "public opinion" is mostly made up of people like the "occupy" idiots, that hate the country and want to help destroy it. If they knew what was good for the US, they would not mind.

1. If that happens in Mexico, I suspect it's because they simply don't have the resources to deal with such an event. I am not aware of any such thing, though.
2. Patently false. I'm not even going to bother explaining why the Mexicans aren't doomed to an eternity of sucking.
3. They're really not. Any advantage the average soldier has over Mexican special forces is down to equipment and tactical support.
4. They are highly organised, as is readily obvious. If they weren't organised they wouldn't be able to participate in the drug trade, and they certainly wouldn't be the hubs of the drug trade. I'll also point out that they don't tend to make threats - they do things, and let those things speak for themselves. The decapitation of dozens of civilians is a good example.
5. Literally every thing you said here is utterly false, and irrelevant as well. I won't bother.

I'm starting to wonder if this person even has sources... (this is Zuan, btw. I just noticed I wasnt on my main nation)

[Urceo-Carthage]

1. If that happens in Mexico, I suspect it's because they simply don't have the resources to deal with such an event. I am not aware of any such thing, though.
2. Patently false. I'm not even going to bother explaining why the Mexicans aren't doomed to an eternity of sucking.
3. They're really not. Any advantage the average soldier has over Mexican special forces is down to equipment and tactical support.
4. They are highly organised, as is readily obvious. If they weren't organised they wouldn't be able to participate in the drug trade, and they certainly wouldn't be the hubs of the drug trade. I'll also point out that they don't tend to make threats - they do things, and let those things speak for themselves. The decapitation of dozens of civilians is a good example.
5. Literally every thing you said here is utterly false, and irrelevant as well. I won't bother.

I'm starting to wonder if this person even has sources... (this is Zuan, btw. I just noticed I wasnt on my main nation)

Yes I do. I have sources that you do not.

[Leminkana]

Mexico might need to get its shit together, but you need to get your shit straight.
While I do appreciate your patriotism, the naïveté you show in regards to the US military's basic training is staggering. The most basic soldier of the US Army could, and would, get his ass handed to him by ANY SpecOps from a anywhere, much less somewhere that we have helped train. If they were really that easy to deal with, we would've handled it much earlier. But it isn't. So we haven't. The most basic US soldier is not train much more than you or I in anything other than how to shoot, throw a grenade, BASIC hand-to-hand combat (if that), and tons of Army regulation codes and protocols. That's it. Yes, it's tough and grueling... To a civilian. Those guys could easily take out an entire batch of basic-train military. We have a tough military, but we aren't that tough. Make sure your sources aren't recruiting commercials and the cinema.

While I don't know what exactly the Army trains it's men to do, I do know that there is no way in hell that a third world country's FORMER special forces member can take out a better organized, better equipped and possibly better trained US soldier. As I said, I don't know exactly what the Army's training is like, but a US Marine or SEAL can easily take out these guys. I know SEALs are special forces. My sources are a bit more direct than commercials and movies.

Then explain what your sources are. Mine, if you want to know, are from talking directly to our own SpecOps troops, this one being a highly qualified Army Ranger medic.
But back to the original point... There is a reason they are SPECIAL FORCES. Third world or not, it's nothing to sneeze at. In fact, most third-world countries have such a huge military focus that their guys are often more dangerous than most first-world country special forces.

[Urceo-Carthage]

Then explain what your sources are. Mine, if you want to know, are from talking directly to our own SpecOps troops, this one being a highly qualified Army Ranger medic.
But back to the original point... There is a reason they are SPECIAL FORCES. Third world or not, it's nothing to sneeze at. In fact, most third-world countries have such a huge military focus that their guys are often more dangerous than most first-world country special forces.

I won't explain my sources, because, well, you weren't here when that happened. The fact is, the US special forces are easily better than any third world special forces. The third world countries might make their men do more pushups, and maybe blend in better and do some crazy ass shit like scalping to lower enemy morale, but in the end, the US spec ops win. In the night time, when you have no idea where the hell you are and you have nothing but your clothes and gun, and you have a ton of US special forces attacking you with night vision, guided missiles, and newer equipment, your gonna lose.

[Tubbsalot]

I won't explain my sources

Is that because your source is Youtube?

[Urceo-Carthage]

I won't explain my sources

Is that because your source is Youtube?

As I said, it's alot more direct. The last time I tried to explain it, the entire thread backfired and it pretty much made everyone hate me. But it's alot more direct, and alot more accurate than yours.

[Tubbsalot]

As I said, it's alot more direct. The last time I tried to explain it, the entire thread backfired and it pretty much made everyone hate me. But it's alot more direct, and alot more accurate than yours.

Right, well you have to realise that "i have great sources, honest, they totally prove you're wrong" is not very convincing to most people. If it made everyone hate you last time, perhaps you should consider that they're not as great as you think.

[Urceo-Carthage]

As I said, it's alot more direct. The last time I tried to explain it, the entire thread backfired and it pretty much made everyone hate me. But it's alot more direct, and alot more accurate than yours.

Right, well you have to realise that "i have great sources, honest, they totally prove you're wrong" is not very convincing to most people. If it made everyone hate you last time, perhaps you should consider that they're not as great as you think.

Actually, I don't give it enough credit. It pretty much comes as direct as possible. This argument is over.

[Risottia]

My two cents:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operazione ... _Siciliani

In Sicily from 1992 to 1998 the Mafia suffered huge setbacks, because, while the prosecutors and the police forces attacked the top levels by "tracking the money" (as Giovanni Falcone said), the military controlled the territory. Yeah, with tanks for roadblocks, too.

Something similar happened in Apulia in the late '90s, when the Apulian mafia (Sacra Corona Unita) managed the tobacco and arms smuggling from Albania. They even had homemade armoured cars... the Guardia di Finanza, being part of the Army, countered by ambushing and ramming them with B1 Centauro.

But has that solved the problem or just put a band-aid on it? Does the demand for illicit drugs still exist? Because if so, I'm willing to bet some new mafia will just take their place.

The mafia wasn't that much on drug smuggling as on territory control (basically all of Sicily was effectively ruled by Mafia).
Tracking the money flux has led the judiciary to understand the links between the bosses, the political power and the financiary power, while the police, who didn't have to use personnel to man roadblocks, was able to focus on tracking and capturing the bosses (Totò Riina, Bernardo Provenzano, Giovanni Brusca etc) and hundreds of low-ranks.
Jailing the bosses has severed many ties that allowed the Mafia to operate as a solid bloc. Now there are many smaller mafia groups - hence, much weaker, less "militarily" dangerous, and much easier to discover.

The illicit drugs market isn't the ONLY mafia business. They're in any kind of lucrative business. Expecially money-laundering.
But the problem Mexico has isn't drugs. It's a criminal organization that's effectively ruling part of its territory.

[West Failure]

.... and you have a ton of US special forces attacking you with night vision, guided missiles, and newer equipment, your gonna lose.

Unless they crash the helicopter yet again.

[Leminkana]

In the night time, when you have no idea where the hell you are and you have nothing but your clothes and gun, and you have a ton of US special forces attacking you with night vision, guided missiles, and newer equipment, your gonna lose.

You know, there is this thing called money. They have lots of it. And it can be used to buy These newfangled contraptions like your 'night vision'. Just saying.
If you really want to tell me that they don't stand a chance, I would like to see you go head-to-head with basic US training and equipment against someone who's trained and as the equipment that the Zetas have. but then again I wouldn't, because we'd have another poor unfortunate corpse hanging for an overpass.
But I'll go past that. If the solution was as simple as 'our army men are bigger than their army men' then the problem would have been solved long ago.

[Tubbsalot]

Actually, I don't give it enough credit. It pretty much comes as direct as possible. This argument is over.

I'm sorry your source is so amazing that you can't tell anyone about it. I understand, though. Our poor inferior brains would probably explode with the effort of trying to comprehend the validity of your source (which sounds like a dude you know - and I don't need to tell you that anecdotes aren't proof).

[Leminkana]

Actually, I don't give it enough credit. It pretty much comes as direct as possible. This argument is over.

So now you're resorting to 'I HAVE UNKNOWN SCOURCES, YOUR ARGUEMENT HAS BEEN RENDERED INVALID'.
This isn't an Internet meme. This is a scource-driven intellectual debate about solutions to a real-world problem.

[Risottia]

I won't explain my sources, because, well, you weren't here when that happened.

Internet Tough Guy detected.

The fact is, the US special forces are easily better than any third world special forces.

Mexico is hardly "third world".

in the end, the US spec ops win.

Like at Sigonella.

In the night time, when you have no idea where the hell you are and you have nothing but your clothes and gun, and you have a ton of US special forces attacking you with night vision, guided missiles, and newer equipment, your gonna lose.

What if the "US special forces" don't even know they should be searching for me, or where? Because, you know, that's how mafia works. You don't know who the bosses are. And when you know the name of one, or even have a pic of him, you have no clue about where he is. And no witnesses, no one knows anything (because they like life, capisc!).

[Urceo-Carthage]

In the night time, when you have no idea where the hell you are and you have nothing but your clothes and gun, and you have a ton of US special forces attacking you with night vision, guided missiles, and newer equipment, your gonna lose.

You know, there is this thing called money. They have lots of it. And it can be used to buy These newfangled contraptions like your 'night vision'. Just saying.
If you really want to tell me that they don't stand a chance, I would like to see you go head-to-head with basic US training and equipment against someone who's trained and as the equipment that the Zetas have. but then again I wouldn't, because we'd have another poor unfortunate corpse hanging for an overpass.
But I'll go past that. If the solution was as simple as 'our army men are bigger than their army men' then the problem would have been solved long ago.

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

[Leminkana]

You know, there is this thing called money. They have lots of it. And it can be used to buy These newfangled contraptions like your 'night vision'. Just saying.
If you really want to tell me that they don't stand a chance, I would like to see you go head-to-head with basic US training and equipment against someone who's trained and as the equipment that the Zetas have. but then again I wouldn't, because we'd have another poor unfortunate corpse hanging for an overpass.
But I'll go past that. If the solution was as simple as 'our army men are bigger than their army men' then the problem would have been solved long ago.

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

They really don't need to be backed by the Mexican government when the Zetas have more money than said government (allegedly). They can buy those missiles. They can buy those guns. They can buy those night visions goggles. The get them from this really new system called the Black Market. And, like mentioned just a few posts before, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE. How are you going to fight someone who has similar training and equipment if you don't know who they are or where they are? It's not like they constantly stay at big white pot plantations on top of a hill that has signs reading 'ZETA BOSS HERE" (in Spanish).
You can't fight what you can't see. And even if we did, we'd still have a hard time about it.

Oh, and as an added note, you would die a slow and painful death if you did confront one. Though I doubt you'd be so glad to when they aren't on the other side of your shield we all call a computer monitor.

[West Failure]

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

They are drug dealers making huge amounts of money, in all likelihood they can afford to be at least as well equipped. They are also actively carrying out on a daily basis the kind of thing that marines are just training for.

[Urceo-Carthage]

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

They really don't need to be backed by the Mexican government when the Zetas have more money than said government (allegedly). They can buy those missiles. They can buy those guns. They can buy those night visions goggles. The get them from this really new system called the Black Market. And, like mentioned just a few posts before, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE. How are you going to fight someone who has similar training and equipment if you don't know who they are or where they are? It's not like they constantly stay at big white pot plantations on top of a hill that has signs reading 'ZETA BOSS HERE" (in Spanish).
You can't fight what you can't see. And even if we did, we'd still have a hard time about it.

We're doing just that in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are training the Iraqi and Afgan militaries to deal with the problems on their own, and I have no idea how that's going, because it's been a while. It's pretty easy to see a special forces soldier carrying a gun, regardless of where they are.

[Leminkana]

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

They are drug dealers making huge amounts of money, in all likelihood they can afford to be at least as well equipped. They are also actively carrying out on a daily basis the kind of thing that marines are just training for.

I think this guy just hasn't realized that maybe since EVERYONE HERE has told him he's wrong, there MIGHT be something to what we are saying...

[Nazis in Space]

So then in that case I just revert to Plan B, where I capture a lieutenant, tie him to a chair, turn a running video camera on him, do something really fucking sadistic, and then make copies of the tape and send them to the Zetas leaders with the note “You're next” attached.

The way to deal with sick fucks is show them you're sicker. That said the Zetas don't really seem that badass when all they do is hang a bunch of bloggers.

Man, you're so strong and manly.

TAKE ME NOW!

Hint: the Zetas were made from former Mexican special forces members.

As I said, I know. What I meant is that even if they are former special forces, their training in the Mexican Special forces is nearly useless compared to even the US Army.

No, it means that you're talking shit.

Special Forces training is practically standardised worldwide, they're basically mutually exchangeable.

As much as you enjoy stroking your dick over Manly American Men Who Are Manly And Special, the US military isn't dominant because it somehow, magically has a hundreds of superman clones in its special forces, it's dominant because it spends lots of money on missiles and planes and tanks.

Its special forces are no worse and no better than anyone elses. Note how their performance in Mogadishu 1993 was essentially the same as the performance of Guatemalan Special Forces (Yes, the guys buddy-buddy with the Zelas) in the Congo 2006 (Hell to take down, but still overwhelmed and ultimately defeated by way of numbers).

I would gladly do that, to prove that we are better. The Zetas are not funded by the government, meaning they have outdated and probably useless equipment. I don't understand whats so good about their training that a typical Marine doesn't have?

lulz.

So... Not being funded by the government (Because they make orders of magnitude more money by controlling the drug trade) equals outdated and probably useless equipment (Like the brand-new and usually American-manufactured assault rifles and freakin' grenade launchers that are regularly discovered?

Nevermind that the very mission criteria for special forces do not require billions of bucks in equipment, what with they tending to operate with fairly light infantry-level kit... Incidentally, the same material, and even with essentially the same mission objectives (Killing of OPFOR key figures comes to mind) as in the drug trade!

[Leminkana]

They really don't need to be backed by the Mexican government when the Zetas have more money than said government (allegedly). They can buy those missiles. They can buy those guns. They can buy those night visions goggles. The get them from this really new system called the Black Market. And, like mentioned just a few posts before, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE. How are you going to fight someone who has similar training and equipment if you don't know who they are or where they are? It's not like they constantly stay at big white pot plantations on top of a hill that has signs reading 'ZETA BOSS HERE" (in Spanish).
You can't fight what you can't see. And even if we did, we'd still have a hard time about it.

We're doing just that in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are training the Iraqi and Afgan militaries to deal with the problems on their own, and I have no idea how that's going, because it's been a while. It's pretty easy to see a special forces soldier carrying a gun, regardless of where they are.

Ah, but that is where you are mistaken. Not all special forces carry a visible gun. and I'm sure that Zetas have no problem holing up in a civilian's house waiting for you to pass by so they can jump out and stab you in the neck. Which is easy because they know the area a hell of a lot better than you do.