Choosing lesbianism, less personal.

[Sith Korriban]

Ugh, political lesbianism.
Combining misandry with coopting a sexual orientation for your own political views.

Hating men is not feminism. Hetero sex is not anti-feminist.
And I sure hope political lesbians only date each other; wouldn't want to see them breaking the hearts of actual lesbians.

"Oh, honey, I'm not actually really attracted to you, but I'm trying really hard to be, because that'll show all those men how much I hate them." Who wants to hear that in a relationship?

I have to wonder why these people don't just go celibate. Lack of self-control and some ridiculous constant craving for any sex, even if it's not with someone whose plumbing gets their motor going? Lack of conviction regarding their ideals? Celibacy would be a whole lot better than turning the orientation of others into a put-on political statement.

[Femnipotent]

All of your assumptions are wrong. Particularly the one which assumes you cannot become attracted to someone if you choose to be.

[Sith Korriban]

All of your assumptions are wrong. Particularly the one which assumes you cannot become attracted to someone if you choose to be.

Well, gee, that sure proved me wrong! I mean, all that dazzling evidence! My opinion has been turned around entirely! And such a stunning refutation.

Actually, I think most lesbians will be safe; they tend to be attracted to adult women, and there's something that seems to me a little immature about deciding to declare oneself a lesbian solely because boys have cooties.

[Natapoc]

All of your assumptions are wrong. Particularly the one which assumes you cannot become attracted to someone if you choose to be.

Perhaps you can. Many people have experiences which tell them they can't.

I was not alive during the time political lesbianism was at it's height some 30 years ago. From what I've read, back then there were communes starting up all over the western world and numerous publications.

The participants found the truth that women could be just as abusive, controlling, and manipulative as men can be.

They found that real (natural) lesbians had many different viewpoints on feminism.

Even political lesbian "feminists" fought constantly about what that even meant.

I don't know if there are still any pure "political lesbians" (ie, people who are lesbian "by choice" ) still practicing. Nearly all of them realized how impractical it is.

The ones who still call themselves by that term now tend to be actual natural lesbians who deal with both men and women in their daily life, having long ago abandoned the idea of working on a farm with other women they can't stand just to make a political point that no one but a handful of individuals could even understand.

[1000 Cats]

It is at the very least much more fashionable for women to be bisexual than for men to be bisexual. There is even, actually, a certain amount of empirical literature supporting what Dakini has said as a caveat:

... and it's something I've heard many times before from many comparatively egalitarian sorts. It's generally easier for a woman to decide that she is going to function as heterosexual with respect to a male partner, or function as homosexual with respect to a female partner.

That isn't exactly what I meant here. And actually, later in the post I point out how calling bi girls who date men straight and bi girls who date women gay is kinda annoying (since they're bi the whole time).

What I meant by female sexuality being more fluid is that in general, once a man actually figures out who he's attracted to, it's relatively stable. If he's into women at 20, he'll be into women at 50 and 70. Women seem to change this sometimes. If you ever listen to Dan Savage's podcast (or read his column) he'll sometimes get some woman who has only ever been interested in women going "wtf, why am I suddenly attracted to men?" and it won't be a fashion thing, it'll just be some weird fluctuating sexual orientation thing (and probably really goddamn confusing).

But then I don't know if there are a lot of studies on female sexual orientation compared to male. I mean, with men there are some factors that have been studied that seem to result in gay boys (e.g. birth order) and they haven't (to my knowledge, at least) performed these studies for women. They've done studies from which the results could be interpreted as there are no bi men and all women are bi... but I doubt this is the correct conclusion to draw. I think that female sexual orientation ends up being more complicated than male sexual orientation and further study (on both) is required.

You may well be right. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 00169/full

[Erendi]

I feel that pretty much your sexual orientation is not something that you really have control over weather you are hetrosexual, homosexual or somewhere in between. While for bisexuals it can vary somewhat within a given range over time (and many people are at least somewhat bisexual even if only to a small degree) for the most part it is pretty stable (someone primarilly hetrosexual will not become gay or vice versa). One could I suppose choose to have relationships not of your natural orientation for various religious or other reasons but this will not change it and likely they will just make themselves and their partners miserable over time.

[Four-sided Triangles]

I'm disappointed in you. If you were a real feminist, you would be arguing for absolute, total celibacy. No sex, no masturbation, no sexual thoughts. That is the only way to be pure.

[Soheran]

What I am seeing here as I saw in the other thread, is that people are extremely threatened by even the discussion of sexual orientation as a choice. Again, why is that?

Why do you think?

A great many gay people (and no few bisexual people) at one point wanted to be straight. A great many invested much effort to become straight: not just "choosing to be attracted" to people of the opposite sex, but having sex and having serious relationships with people of the opposite sex, and sometimes undergoing "reparative" "therapy" to "fix" themselves. None of it works.

Now, you might say, they shouldn't have felt the need to try--heterosexuality is not morally superior to homosexuality--and it makes no difference to the rightness of gay rights whether or not homosexuality is a choice. And I agree. But that misses the point. What do you make of all those people's experiences? Are they liars? Are they deluded? Were they just not "really" trying?

What about people who identify as "ex-gay"? Having accepted the legitimacy of "conversion," ought we to take such people's declared "straight" orientation seriously, as much as we might disagree with their moral views of homosexuality? Instead of emphasizing the importance of authenticity, and of the freedom to live authentically, should we instead emphasize the importance of "choice," of seeing sexual orientation as something like a taste in food, perhaps not directly under conscious control yet nonetheless subject to change through conscious will? Should we do this despite the fact that as a matter of actual, concrete fact this notion has meant, not freedom, but rather an immensity of suffering and shame for many gay and bisexual people?

[Ravenvalles]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

I agree that we are all hardwired for basic sexual preference. Beyond that it is learned behavior. One may have come into this world preferring one sex over another, but other factors of attraction like size, hair color, etc. are learned behaviors. The problem is that we have not defined precisely where the line between inborn and learned behaviors exist.

My research and experiences show that ones attraction can be cultivated and groomed. I think this is a major problem with a lot of relationships that fail after the honeymoon phase is over. If one decides that much of attraction is learned, there is a responsibility to maintain and adjust learned preferences as a relationship changes. Many would rather blame their partners, than take this responsibility. Take a partner that claims that their partner is not attractive to them any more, due to any named reason. They need to start finding it attractive. It is their responsibility, having the ability to choose what they find attractive.

As to the cardboard box. I would have to say it is possible to love romantically (eros)a cardboard box. Look at all of the fanboys that masturbate to anthro, or furry porn. An image of a mythical being is much less than a cardboard box. Washington Irving in his book Tales of the Alhambra, retold a folk story where a young man fell in love with a tree. Eros is within the person, not the object of their affection.

[Cameroi]

the one thing i choose not to understand about the whole thing, is why anyone considers it any of their own concern, what anyone other then themselves and their own partners, goes to bed with.

i'm sure there are many factors to one's preferences and attractions, and have no doubt that for many people their genetic hieratage may well be one of them.

i'm more concerned though, that anyone considers it any of their business what anyone does that isn't directly influencing the kind of world they, and the rest of us, regardless of orientation, all have to individually experience living in.'

[Ravenvalles]

comparatively egalitarian sorts. It's generally easier for a woman to decide that she is going to function as heterosexual with respect to a male partner, or function as homosexual with respect to a female partner.

Mechanically yes, It is easier. However, If the research is correct and the majority of people are Bi, then the majority of the those that claim to be heterosexual are indeed choosing one over the other. Our society claims that women are more commonly Bi than men, but nature says that the opposite is true. Males of most other species are very opportunistic. I do know Gay men who have had sex with women for the purposes of procreation, and pair bonding. I have no idea if they are really Bi rather than Gay, but they claim to be Gay, so I would have to take their word for it.

[Ravenvalles]

Deleted - post error

[Soheran]

According to my periodic totally non-scientific surveys of the OKCupid userbase based on large-scale match counts, the relative ratios of self-identification are, for men and women:

2:1 bisexual:lesbian (female)
1:2 bisexual:gay (male)

(I don't recall the fraction of the population that was straight, those are just relative figures between homosexual and bisexual; the difference in ratios was striking.)

This roughly matches the more scientific survey data here (.pdf, see p. 6).

I was surprised by the number of self-identified bi men on OkCupid. For obvious reasons, I suspect people are more likely to express that on a dating website than casually throughout their lives.

[Ravenvalles]

However, If the research is correct and the majority of people are Bi, then the majority of the those that claim to be heterosexual are indeed choosing one over the other.

I don't get the impression that most of those peers of my adolescence chose much of anything.

It is not conscious, it is trial and error. We repeat behaviors that pay off, and stop behaviors that do not. If a person is Bi, society pushes them to Hetero, and has many rewards for Hetero behavior.

[Dakini]

Once again the claim is being made that you have absolutely no power over who you are attracted to, as though you were imprinted at birth to find a specific gender and type attractive, and that's merely your lot in life.

Type not so much, gender very much so. Unless you believe that the ex-gay shit is reasonable which means that you've apparently ignored studies demonstrating that it's nothing other than abuse that doesn't change a person's sexual orientation at all (the "best" it does is forces gay men and lesbians into the closet). So hey, yeah, make a statement about rape culture and support the mental abuse of GLBTQ individuals. That sounds like a fantastic plan.

But you know what, fine do your bullshit try to be a lesbian thing, just leave real lesbians out of it. They shouldn't be subjected to people who are just pretending to think they're hot to impress some people.

And you know what, how about you stop using my word (well, a word shared with others and that I didn't coin, of course) while you're at it. Stop calling yourself a feminist. You are not a feminist. Feminists want equal rights. You are a misandrist who belittles women and treats them like perpetual victims while ignoring all of their flaws.

[Ravenvalles]

n image of a mythical being is much less than a cardboard box. Washington Irving in his book Tales of the Alhambra, retold a folk story where a young man fell in love with a tree. Eros is within the person, not the object of their affection.

I call false dichotomy. The cardboard and tree are within the person.

Affection, is independent of the object. A straight man may feel attraction for a lesbian.

[Risottia]

Once again the claim is being made that you have absolutely no power over who you are attracted to, as though you were imprinted at birth to find a specific gender and type attractive, and that's merely your lot in life. That makes very little sense given how people do in fact change their preferences over time.

But do people do so consciously (that is, as effect of a choice) or subconsciously (that is, as effect of something beyond the control of their own will)?

[New Heliopolis]

Once again the claim is being made that you have absolutely no power over who you are attracted to, as though you were imprinted at birth to find a specific gender and type attractive, and that's merely your lot in life.

Type not so much, gender very much so. Unless you believe that the ex-gay shit is reasonable which means that you've apparently ignored studies demonstrating that it's nothing other than abuse that doesn't change a person's sexual orientation at all (the "best" it does is forces gay men and lesbians into the closet). So hey, yeah, make a statement about rape culture and support the mental abuse of GLBTQ individuals. That sounds like a fantastic plan.

Saying "it's possible to do voluntarily"=/="it's okay to force on people."

Furthermore, negative conditioning isn't as effective as positive, but...

But you know what, fine do your bullshit try to be a lesbian thing, just leave real lesbians out of it. They shouldn't be subjected to people who are just pretending to think they're hot to impress some people.

You know, I must give you a thumbs-up for this, though.

This is true.

And you know what, how about you stop using my word (well, a word shared with others and that I didn't coin, of course) while you're at it. Stop calling yourself a feminist. You are not a feminist. Feminists want equal rights. You are a misandrist who belittles women and treats them like perpetual victims while ignoring all of their flaws.

You know, I must give you...etc., etc.

[Iuuvic]

I don't get the impression that most of those peers of my adolescence chose much of anything.

It is not conscious, it is trial and error. We repeat behaviors that pay off, and stop behaviors that do not. If a person is Bi, society pushes them to Hetero, and has many rewards for Hetero behavior.

So homosexuals are pushed by societal pressure to be homosexual based on the many rewards of being homosexual?

[Dakini]

That isn't exactly what I meant here. And actually, later in the post I point out how calling bi girls who date men straight and bi girls who date women gay is kinda annoying (since they're bi the whole time).

What I meant by female sexuality being more fluid is that in general, once a man actually figures out who he's attracted to, it's relatively stable. If he's into women at 20, he'll be into women at 50 and 70. Women seem to change this sometimes. If you ever listen to Dan Savage's podcast (or read his column) he'll sometimes get some woman who has only ever been interested in women going "wtf, why am I suddenly attracted to men?" and it won't be a fashion thing, it'll just be some weird fluctuating sexual orientation thing (and probably really goddamn confusing).

But then I don't know if there are a lot of studies on female sexual orientation compared to male. I mean, with men there are some factors that have been studied that seem to result in gay boys (e.g. birth order) and they haven't (to my knowledge, at least) performed these studies for women. They've done studies from which the results could be interpreted as there are no bi men and all women are bi... but I doubt this is the correct conclusion to draw. I think that female sexual orientation ends up being more complicated than male sexual orientation and further study (on both) is required.

You may well be right. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 00169/full

If I was on campus I could read more than the abstract, but alas. I'll have to remember to read it later.

[Dakini]

Type not so much, gender very much so. Unless you believe that the ex-gay shit is reasonable which means that you've apparently ignored studies demonstrating that it's nothing other than abuse that doesn't change a person's sexual orientation at all (the "best" it does is forces gay men and lesbians into the closet). So hey, yeah, make a statement about rape culture and support the mental abuse of GLBTQ individuals. That sounds like a fantastic plan.

Saying "it's possible to do voluntarily"=/="it's okay to force on people."

Furthermore, negative conditioning isn't as effective as positive, but...

But arguing that sexual orientation is a choice when there are men and women out there who are homosexual and don't wish to be and are trying not to be (in these ex-gay camps) and pretending they aren't kinda just seems really, really shitty. It seems like it's supporting the idea that people shouldn't accept who they are and who they are attracted to, but should hide it and try to change it even though studies indicate that it is never a conscious choice (even if for some people, it evolves and changes naturally with time).

But you know what, fine do your bullshit try to be a lesbian thing, just leave real lesbians out of it. They shouldn't be subjected to people who are just pretending to think they're hot to impress some people.

You know, I must give you a thumbs-up for this, though.

This is true.

And you know what, how about you stop using my word (well, a word shared with others and that I didn't coin, of course) while you're at it. Stop calling yourself a feminist. You are not a feminist. Feminists want equal rights. You are a misandrist who belittles women and treats them like perpetual victims while ignoring all of their flaws.

You know, I must give you...etc., etc.

Thanks.

[Iuuvic]

So homosexuals are pushed by societal pressure to be homosexual based on the many rewards of being homosexual?

He wasn't making that argument.

Societal pressure swaying orientation had plenty to do with his point.

[New Heliopolis]

But arguing that sexual orientation is a choice when there are men and women out there who are homosexual and don't wish to be and are trying not to be (in these ex-gay camps) and pretending they aren't kinda just seems really, really shitty. It seems like it's supporting the idea that people shouldn't accept who they are and who they are attracted to, but should hide it and try to change it

To me, I hope it's a choice simply because, well...I don't like being biologically forced to have one orientation, or at least, for other people to be. That would just be a depressing hit to my belief in willpower...

even though studies indicate that it is never a conscious choice (even if for some people, it evolves and changes naturally with time).

The subconscious can still be altered, though. And people can be conscious of how to do that.

Honestly, with medication (gah, I hate but still) it's not only possible but a definite ability.

Thanks.

So do I get a reward?

[Dakini]

But arguing that sexual orientation is a choice when there are men and women out there who are homosexual and don't wish to be and are trying not to be (in these ex-gay camps) and pretending they aren't kinda just seems really, really shitty. It seems like it's supporting the idea that people shouldn't accept who they are and who they are attracted to, but should hide it and try to change it

To me, I hope it's a choice simply because, well...I don't like being biologically forced to have one orientation, or at least, for other people to be. That would just be a depressing hit to my belief in willpower...

Hate to tell you this, but you don't choose to make your heart beat either. There's no evidence sexual orientation is a choice.

even though studies indicate that it is never a conscious choice (even if for some people, it evolves and changes naturally with time).

The subconscious can still be altered, though. And people can be conscious of how to do that.

Honestly, with medication (gah, I hate but still) it's not only possible but a definite ability.

Not really... and why would you medicate something that isn't a disease?

Thanks.

So do I get a reward?

I had the good points, shouldn't I be the one getting a cookie or something?

[Dakini]

To me, I hope it's a choice simply because, well...I don't like being biologically forced to have one orientation, or at least, for other people to be. That would just be a depressing hit to my belief in willpower...

If people had much willpower you wouldn't be living in a corrupted corporate pseudo-democracy.

Please fix your quotes, I didn't say that.