Choosing lesbianism, less personal.

[New Rogernomics]

I think its more of a matter of exposure to certain material at certain stages/points in your life, some studies have given young children toys associated with their opposite gender and noticed a difference in behavior*1, that aside there is nothing stopping biological attraction (I would call that lust/desire) to the same gender (which still drives how we interact), I find both genders attractive, but my preference (as a male) is to reproduction and a relationship with a female partner. Personal preference combined with biological attraction probably forms what could be referred to as love, a sexual relationship isn't necessary for love (especially for those with HIV for example).

*1: http://www.indiana.edu/~cogdev/labwork/toychoice.pdf

[Free Pangea]

Sexuality is neither a choice nor is it something you're born with. I think it has more to do with powerful influences in your life, especially in certain early stages.
I don't view any sexuality as being bad in any way. I believe in sexual freedom.

[AiliailiA]

Sexuality is neither a choice nor is it something you're born with.

Defining what sexuality is not doesn't seem very useful.

I would say it has choices within it. Don't people feel fears and anticipate benefits, and make a balance between them in choosing a sexual partner? It is gloomy, if not alarming, to think that conscious decisions play NO part in directing sexual behavior.

Condensing a much longer post I wrote but abandoned: experience drives change in sexuality, and in adulthood is probably the single largest driver of change. (Don't take that as a claim that the most significant change, sexualization in adolescence, has experience as the main driver ... physiological change is a significant factor at all stages of life and at some stages is the dominant factor). Sex itself, even more than masturbation, is a powerful pleasure reward and whatever behavior leads to or is associated with it is strengthened as a habit. But of course there can be other disincentives bundled with the pleasure reward which make it less effective.

The role of conscious choice in this is instance-by-instance. Within the envelope of sexual activity which is likely to be gratifying, a person can consciously tend in one direction. But it will only work if it's driven by desire and reward, rather than revulsion or guilt. Simply trying to get away from your current sexuality is aimless, and lacks the steps of pleasure reinforcement. Choice, act-by-act, certainly can effect a deliberate change, though one should not expect it to be quick nor precisely steered.

If there even is a good reason to "get to" some other state of sexuality, you have to lead yourself there with the carrot not try to drive yourself there with the stick.

[AiliailiA]

Sexuality is neither a choice nor is it something you're born with. I think it has more to do with powerful influences in your life, especially in certain early stages.[1]
I don't view any sexuality as being bad in any way. I believe in sexual freedom.[2]

To address the rest of your post ... [1] I think it is all three, and has a strong sybiotic relationship with other aspects of development (intellectual, experience, and self-definition) ... and [2] what is "freedom" without choice?

[AiliailiA]

I would imagine that sexual orientation is too deeply wired into our unconscious to ever be changed -- whether that's because it is significantly governed by hormone levels or by neurobiology. If it's not, why do people who are from very early on socialised to believe that heterosexuality is the only normal orientation and who would experience significant distress and ostracisation if they were not heterosexual, still turn out to be gay -- often after trying to convince themselves they are straight for years? Why don't transsexuals just choose to have a gender identity that matches their sex? Et cetera.

I would say, because they are trying to effect that change by force of will. Wishing does not make it so, change always involves intermediary steps.

Certainly there are powerful forces at work within a person (and in their social interaction too) where sex is involved. The conscious will isn't the strongest of them, but it has intelligence and purpose and with those it can guide stronger forces. Also remember that the conscious will grows stronger with use, and that an older person often has a stronger will simply through practice.

I would also say that the young person who "wishes they were straight" is responding to the demands of others (explicit revulsion of gays for instance) rather than a self-conceived wish. This is quite different to the OP's quest, where she has a (well-founded or not) self-conceived wish and is wondering how to implement it (or even, if there is any chance of implementing it).

Wanting to not-be what you are, is negative and aimless. It leads only to supression and unhappiness. Wanting to change however is not so futile. Just find some path that seems to lead that way, keep taking steps. If the journey is miserable, don't expect the destination to be any good either.

[Natapoc]

Your OP is ambiguous and it's not clear how your title relates to it. But I'll try to answer.

You can influence to a small degree who you are sexually attracted to intentionally. For example you may hate drinking and thus automatically dislike drunks and feel "turned off" by people with alcohol breath. Especially if you form much of your identity on being disdainful of alcohol.

On the other hand you can become an alcoholic and build positive associations with the smell of alcohol thus leading you to not be turned off by people with alcohol breath.

I'm using alcohol as an example because it's something you can actually choose and it does effect your biochemistry somewhat.

A "straight" woman can enjoy lesbian sex but that does not make her a lesbian necessarily. It just means she has had a physically pleasurable experience.

If you are going to try to choose to be a lesbian please at least inform any potential partner before the relationship gets past the: I'm a lesbian! stage before you break her heart.

Trying to change something as fundamental as your sexuality for any reason will not succeed. Just as no amount of brainwashing can make a homosexual no longer be homosexual (contrary to what some religious groups believe) so also no amount of brainwashing can force a person to be homosexual.

Why exactly would anyone want to do that anyway? In every case I can conceive of it's an unhealthy ideology which convinces a person that for some reason their existing sexuality is wrong.

If you have such an ideology, may I recommend throwing it away for something better or a better interpretation of the ideology? Any ideology which makes a person "feel bad" about their sexuality and wish to change it is very dangerous to the adherent and often dangerous to those whom he or she interacts.

When reality comes into conflict with ideology it's not reality which one should choose to ignore.

If you're gay: Be gay and happy about it.
If you're straight: Be straight and happy about it.
If you're bi be bi and happy about it.
If you're something else altogether: Well, be that and happy about it too!

[Dakini]

No, you can't choose to be a lesbian. Who you find sexually attractive is not a choice.

Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality. But that just means that there might be more drifting between being more straight or more gay or just plain old bi. But if you're attracted to both genders, you're bi. Even if you're attracted to both genders and making a conscious choice to date one or the other gender or even if circumstances work out that you end up with a member of one gender or the other. There's a tendency to identify bi girls who date men as straight and bi girls who date women as being lesbians which doesn't really get the whole thing.

Anyway, if you're not attracted to women (and only attracted to men) but you try to date women, that doesn't make you a lesbian, it puts you in some sort of bullshit "look how much I don't need men" pseudo-closet. Just date and fuck who you find interesting to date and fuck and don't worry about the associated political bullshit people want to attach to this.

[Lackadaisical2]

I don't think one should inflict themselves on another.

[1000 Cats]

Sexuality is neither a choice nor is it something you're born with.

Defining what sexuality is not doesn't seem very useful.

I would say it has choices within it. Don't people feel fears and anticipate benefits, and make a balance between them in choosing a sexual partner? It is gloomy, if not alarming, to think that conscious decisions play NO part in directing sexual behavior.

Condensing a much longer post I wrote but abandoned: experience drives change in sexuality, and in adulthood is probably the single largest driver of change. (Don't take that as a claim that the most significant change, sexualization in adolescence, has experience as the main driver ... physiological change is a significant factor at all stages of life and at some stages is the dominant factor). Sex itself, even more than masturbation, is a powerful pleasure reward and whatever behavior leads to or is associated with it is strengthened as a habit. But of course there can be other disincentives bundled with the pleasure reward which make it less effective.

The role of conscious choice in this is instance-by-instance. Within the envelope of sexual activity which is likely to be gratifying, a person can consciously tend in one direction. But it will only work if it's driven by desire and reward, rather than revulsion or guilt. Simply trying to get away from your current sexuality is aimless, and lacks the steps of pleasure reinforcement. Choice, act-by-act, certainly can effect a deliberate change, though one should not expect it to be quick nor precisely steered.

If there even is a good reason to "get to" some other state of sexuality, you have to lead yourself there with the carrot not try to drive yourself there with the stick.

Behaviour != Sexuality

Also things like masturbatory conditioning don't work. Not to mention that if you have that desire... well, doesn't that mean you're already the sexuality you're looking to be?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, you can't choose to be a lesbian. Who you find sexually attractive is not a choice.

Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality. But that just means that there might be more drifting between being more straight or more gay or just plain old bi. But if you're attracted to both genders, you're bi. Even if you're attracted to both genders and making a conscious choice to date one or the other gender or even if circumstances work out that you end up with a member of one gender or the other. There's a tendency to identify bi girls who date men as straight and bi girls who date women as being lesbians which doesn't really get the whole thing.

Anyway, if you're not attracted to women (and only attracted to men) but you try to date women, that doesn't make you a lesbian, it puts you in some sort of bullshit "look how much I don't need men" pseudo-closet. Just date and fuck who you find interesting to date and fuck and don't worry about the associated political bullshit people want to attach to this.

^This, a thousand times.

[Polruan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -gayrights

Bindel on the subject

[Natapoc]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights

Bindel on the subject

Ugh is that what this is about? Intentional lesbianism as a method of promoting feminism is counterproductive. Feminism is about destroying patriarchy. It's not about viewing men as the enemy.

To counter the claims of the individual who wrote the article:

She says

I also suspect that it is very difficult to spend your daily life fighting against male violence, only to share a bed with a man come the evening.

Only if that man is promoting such violence. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism.

It's so typical in people who wish to destroy movements to try to set up a divisive situation such as what they are suggesting.

All men should be feminists. All Women should be feminists. Once all men and all women are feminists then we won't need feminism anymore because we'll have equality in terms of bias against individuals due to sex (but we'll still need to fight against other forms of oppression that remain)

* Note, victory is not dependent on everyone being feminists. It's not even dependent on most people becoming feminists.

The article makes the claim that penetration is violent. No it's not!

As a radical feminist I'll tell you right now, separatism is, is no more radical then segregation based on race. It's the worst thing for the cause and I disagree that it belongs in feminism at all.

Feminism is about equality. What these people linked in the article are working for is not equality but something else entirely.

You won't smash the patriarchy that way and you are fighting against the people who ARE smashing the patriarchy. Where did I put my hammer?

[Risottia]

...Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality.

^This, a thousand times.

...which makes every (hetero) man's dream a thousand times more likely to become true.

[1000 Cats]

^This, a thousand times.

I don't think that's true. There may be less stigma against moving out of gender roles or heterosexuality if you're female, but that doesn't mean it happens more often.

[Maurepas]

Yes, I do think sexual attraction is a necessary part of a lasting relationship . At least the intimate version implied here.

And I suppose you could choose to be a lesbian if you want, though I'm not sure why you'd choose to have a sexual relationship with someone you're not attracted to. Seems a bit counter-productive you ask me.

[Risottia]

I don't think that's true. There may be less stigma against moving out of gender roles or heterosexuality if you're female, but that doesn't mean it happens more often.

Awww....

[1000 Cats]

I don't think that's true. There may be less stigma against moving out of gender roles or heterosexuality if you're female, but that doesn't mean it happens more often.

Awww....

In fact, according to surveys quoted by Wiki, there are slightly more homosexual men than women. Sorry.

[Maurepas]

Awww....

In fact, according to surveys quoted by Wiki, there are slightly more homosexual men than women. Sorry.

Well that doesn't necessarily mean that female sexuality is less "fluid" as it were. I don't have the facts to back this up(thanks Herman Cain, lol), but I'd heard somewhere that women can experience a change in orientation after menopause.

[Tahar Joblis]

Awww....

In fact, according to surveys quoted by Wiki, there are slightly more homosexual men than women. Sorry.

According to my periodic totally non-scientific surveys of the OKCupid userbase based on large-scale match counts, the relative ratios of self-identification are, for men and women:

2:1 bisexual:lesbian (female)
1:2 bisexual:gay (male)

(I don't recall the fraction of the population that was straight, those are just relative figures between homosexual and bisexual; the difference in ratios was striking.)

It is at the very least much more fashionable for women to be bisexual than for men to be bisexual. There is even, actually, a certain amount of empirical literature supporting what Dakini has said as a caveat:

Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality.

... and it's something I've heard many times before from many comparatively egalitarian sorts. It's generally easier for a woman to decide that she is going to function as heterosexual with respect to a male partner, or function as homosexual with respect to a female partner.

Aside from that, I'll note that if some minority fraction feminists find "political lesbianism" works for them, it's worth comparing that to the fraction of the general population that identify as homosexual or bisexual before putting credence in the stories of those who buy into it. Seriously. A certain fraction of people find, after experimentation, that they are indeed sexually compatible with their own gender, and I have little trouble believing that the large majority of "political lesbians" who stick with it would, in fact, ordinarily start identifying as bisexual or lesbian on their own given an alternative impetus to give sex with women a try for a little while.

[Nadkor]

The article makes the claim that penetration is violent. No it's not!

It depends. It can be more fun when it is...

[Risottia]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights
Bindel on the subject

That article is a nice epitome of logical fallacies.

[Seibertron]

No, you can't choose to be a lesbian. Who you find sexually attractive is not a choice.

Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality. But that just means that there might be more drifting between being more straight or more gay or just plain old bi. But if you're attracted to both genders, you're bi. Even if you're attracted to both genders and making a conscious choice to date one or the other gender or even if circumstances work out that you end up with a member of one gender or the other. There's a tendency to identify bi girls who date men as straight and bi girls who date women as being lesbians which doesn't really get the whole thing.

Anyway, if you're not attracted to women (and only attracted to men) but you try to date women, that doesn't make you a lesbian, it puts you in some sort of bullshit "look how much I don't need men" pseudo-closet. Just date and fuck who you find interesting to date and fuck and don't worry about the associated political bullshit people want to attach to this.

My stance^
If you feel attracted to women go for it, if you feel something wrong then back off, the same goes for men.

[Dakini]

It is at the very least much more fashionable for women to be bisexual than for men to be bisexual. There is even, actually, a certain amount of empirical literature supporting what Dakini has said as a caveat:

Granted, female sexuality can be more fluid than male sexuality.

... and it's something I've heard many times before from many comparatively egalitarian sorts. It's generally easier for a woman to decide that she is going to function as heterosexual with respect to a male partner, or function as homosexual with respect to a female partner.

That isn't exactly what I meant here. And actually, later in the post I point out how calling bi girls who date men straight and bi girls who date women gay is kinda annoying (since they're bi the whole time).

What I meant by female sexuality being more fluid is that in general, once a man actually figures out who he's attracted to, it's relatively stable. If he's into women at 20, he'll be into women at 50 and 70. Women seem to change this sometimes. If you ever listen to Dan Savage's podcast (or read his column) he'll sometimes get some woman who has only ever been interested in women going "wtf, why am I suddenly attracted to men?" and it won't be a fashion thing, it'll just be some weird fluctuating sexual orientation thing (and probably really goddamn confusing).

But then I don't know if there are a lot of studies on female sexual orientation compared to male. I mean, with men there are some factors that have been studied that seem to result in gay boys (e.g. birth order) and they haven't (to my knowledge, at least) performed these studies for women. They've done studies from which the results could be interpreted as there are no bi men and all women are bi... but I doubt this is the correct conclusion to draw. I think that female sexual orientation ends up being more complicated than male sexual orientation and further study (on both) is required.

[Femnipotent]

Once again the claim is being made that you have absolutely no power over who you are attracted to, as though you were imprinted at birth to find a specific gender and type attractive, and that's merely your lot in life. That makes very little sense given how people do in fact change their preferences over time. The 'type' you were attracted to as a teenager is probably not the type you are attracted to as an adult. At least, one hopes.

[Femnipotent]

That article was excellent, thank you for posting it!

In particular:

I think it's time for feminists to re-open the debate about heterosexuality, and to embrace the idea of political lesbianism. We live in a culture in which rape is still an everyday reality, and yet women are blamed for it, as it is viewed as an inevitable feature of heterosexual sex. Domestic violence is still a chronic problem for countless women in relationships with men. Women are told we must love our oppressors, while, as feminists, we fight to end the power afforded them as a birthright.

What I am seeing here as I saw in the other thread, is that people are extremely threatened by even the discussion of sexual orientation as a choice. Again, why is that? There is no attempt at debate, people just declare 'nope, it's totally out of your control' and that's that.