Choosing lesbianism, less personal.

[Dakini]

Type not so much, gender very much so.

So you claim. I will also take the liberty of just ignoring your various insults.

So says science. So you know, continue making shit up.

Unless you believe that the ex-gay shit is reasonable which means that you've apparently ignored studies demonstrating that it's nothing other than abuse that doesn't change a person's sexual orientation at all (the "best" it does is forces gay men and lesbians into the closet).

Unlike gays shamed into pretending they are heterosexual, I am not being shamed or forced into anything. My growing attraction to women is real, because I am a conscious being who can actively control my reactions.

If you're actually attracted to women, you probably didn't choose it. You can claim that you're attracted to women and fuck women all you want, but if you're not attracted to them, you're not a lesbian. Just like some people remain safely in the closet and claim to be attracted to and love and fuck the opposite sex when they really don't.

The idea that love and attraction MUST be things that merely crash over you, and cannot be controlled or in any way brought out intentionally from within is ridiculous romantic mush.

I didn't say that. I said that sexual orientation is something that you do not have control over because studies on the subject indicate that you don't.

I do not think gender is such an important thing that the line of what you can choose must be drawn there.

If you do not think that gender is important, why are you actively discriminating against men and branding them as rape supporters?

For people who claim that gender is a social construct and that sexuality is fluid, it seems bizarre and contradictory to then claim that you cannot choose to be attracted to either gender if you choose.

No, you're right. I've been using "gender" when I should be using "sex". Doesn't really change my point.

Either you believe gender is NOT a social construct that can be overcome and that sexuality is NOT fluid, or you don't. Which is it?

Gender is a social construct, sex is not. Sexual orientation can be fluid in women, it isn't really in men, but in either case it's not a choice anyone makes.

And you know what, how about you stop using my word (well, a word shared with others and that I didn't coin, of course) while you're at it. Stop calling yourself a feminist. You are not a feminist. Feminists want equal rights. You are a misandrist who belittles women and treats them like perpetual victims while ignoring all of their flaws.

It isn't your word, and you do not get to define me out of it. Sorry. Nor do you get to assume a great many things about me and pass it off as truth.

Then use words correctly as used in the dictionary.

fem·i·nism   [fem-uh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.(sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3.feminine character.

Instead of trying to equate misandry with feminism. How's that?

How about you consider that sexism hurts everyone instead of just making women the victims and men the perpetrators? How about you try to solve actual issues with gender inequality instead of being like "I'm a political lesbian.... look how hardcore I am! I'm going to dismiss the experiences of everyone who disagrees with me."?

[Ravenvalles]

My experiences are that accepting is not the same as endorsing. How many openly Gay parents hope that their children are also Gay? I would venture not many.

People have inclinations. I didn't exactly start out accepting of homosexuality. Biology told me I like both.

I would venture that you were not unaccepting either. We are what we are, and our environment helps to shape our judgement and prejudices.

[Dakini]

This discussion is very much centered around the impossibility of choice having any part in sexual orientation. I have not in any way said that experiences to the contrary (ie, no conscious choice) don't exist but I have had man people repeatedly claim there is no way I or anyone else can control the process of attraction or sexual orientation.

How many gay people do you think have successfully managed to choose to be straight?

How is that better? Is pretending that only one way is possible (ie. no conscious choice) going to protect homosexuals from anti-gay bigotry? Really? I sort of doubt it.

As a matter of practical fact, "It's not a choice" tends to be rhetorically effective. But my concern here is not so much protecting gay people from anti-gay bigotry (I don't think the wrongness of anti-gay bigotry hinges on this question), but rather illustrating how the "choice" picture marginalizes the experiences of gay people. It undermines an important message of the gay movement, a message rooted in those experiences: don't try to change, accept yourself for who you are.

Also ^this, so much ^this.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

All of your assumptions are wrong. Particularly the one which assumes you cannot become attracted to someone if you choose to be.

There is really no point to continuing the conversation and debate if all this is being used for is a platform to make you feel better about whatever choices you've made.

Be with who you want. You don't need anyone elses permission or approval to do so, let alone the forum-goers here. You want to pontificate about how you believe choice is the end-all driving force? Get a blog and carry on about it, any projects you are working on to prove it to yourself, or whatever and do as you like.

This is a discussion-based forum. You will be exposed to any number of differing opinions. If you can't accept that fact, don't discuss here, and don't trawl the forums for opposing opinions to belittle and disregard outright out of whatever need for attention and justification you happen to be feeling.

Please don't start this again until you're ready and willing to actually discuss, thank you.