Choosing lesbianism, less personal.

[Femnipotent]

There were some interesting things brought up in the thread that was deemed too personal, so in the interest of exploring those concepts, please do not ask me personal questions and I will attempt to keep the discussion less 'from my point of view through experiences' and more on just opinions etc.

In particular this post brought up some intriguing ideas:

I don't think anyone is arguing that sexual orientation is wholly about one's genetic/epigenetic makeup and is predetermined, but rather that there is a biological component to it that consciously choosing a sexuality overlooks. Love is another example of this; the most commonly-held notion about love is that it's organically-emergent and relatively spontaneous. Related to this, there's a host of hormones and other biological factors that drive the emotion called 'love' that we are not consciously in control of. Sexual attraction, an important component in love, is similarly chemically-derived and is not inherently-choice driven; most people can't, as Hydesland said, make themselves attracted to cardboard box, for instance.

*snip too personal details* Similarly,[one i]gnores or attempts to alter the biological component of love and sexual attraction, and, because of that,[one] may not be completely happy with [one's] choice or potentially not be satisfying to any potential partners [one has].

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

[Horsefish]

I feel that you could 'force' yourself as it were to be attracted to the same sex (I mean, look at all the homophobes caught with rent boys) but I question the ultimate value of doing so. If your forcing yourself to do soemthing that should be enjoyed your removing the enjoyment from it and turning it inot a chore. This doesn't only impact you but could lead to hurting your partner via feelings of personal failings if you aren't enjoying the sex or you just flat out not enjoying the whole relationship.

[New Heliopolis]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

They in fact can, I think, because, well, conditioning is possible.

People can break habits, formed from chemical aspects of their brains, people can change aspects of their personality, and well...sex is just one such aspect, in the end.

[The Congregationists]

I think "love", at least romantic or erotic love, is a combination of psychological and physiological factors. Neither rules absolutely.

[Femnipotent]

I feel that you could 'force' yourself as it were to be attracted to the same sex (I mean, look at all the homophobes caught with rent boys) but I question the ultimate value of doing so. If your forcing yourself to do soemthing that should be enjoyed your removing the enjoyment from it and turning it inot a chore. This doesn't only impact you but could lead to hurting your partner via feelings of personal failings if you aren't enjoying the sex or you just flat out not enjoying the whole relationship.

Yet there are obviously multiple ways in which you 'enjoy' a relationship. Sexually, mentally, emotionally, and so on. If you can become attracted to something, then you really are not missing out on anything, or turning anything into a chore.

Plenty of people are in relationships that have become a chore, where the sexual attraction has completely faded for example. Yet those people stay together, miserable.

While in other situations, the sexual attraction has faded but the people still enjoy one another's company.

[Femnipotent]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

They in fact can, I think, because, well, conditioning is possible.

People can break habits, formed from chemical aspects of their brains, people can change aspects of their personality, and well...sex is just one such aspect, in the end.

This is what I believe as well. We see it to be true in many aspects of human existence, but we stubbornly attempt to deny it could apply to sexual orientation. To what purpose? To thwart bigots only?

[Horsefish]

Yet there are obviously multiple ways in which you 'enjoy' a relationship. Sexually, mentally, emotionally, and so on. If you can become attracted to something, then you really are not missing out on anything, or turning anything into a chore.

Plenty of people are in relationships that have become a chore, where the sexual attraction has completely faded for example. Yet those people stay together, miserable.

While in other situations, the sexual attraction has faded but the people still enjoy one another's company.

This is true I suppose. Working on Kinsey's sliding scale idea there will probally be someones who will cross the divide for each person and, even if you genrally only find men sexually attractive an individual woman may break the pattern.

It also depends on what context your goign to pursue the realtionship:if your pursuing it in a more companionship orientated direction it is perfectly possible to fall into a realtionship-esque situation with someone of the same sex(I mean, I know several people in this situation myself). I personally feel the sexual element is quite an important element of a growing relationship however, so that wouldn't work for me. That isn't of course, the case for everyone.

[Steel and Fire]

I would imagine that sexual orientation is too deeply wired into our unconscious to ever be changed -- whether that's because it is significantly governed by hormone levels or by neurobiology. If it's not, why do people who are from very early on socialised to believe that heterosexuality is the only normal orientation and who would experience significant distress and ostracisation if they were not heterosexual, still turn out to be gay -- often after trying to convince themselves they are straight for years? Why don't transsexuals just choose to have a gender identity that matches their sex? Et cetera.

Empirical evidence seems to suggest that love and attraction cannot be overcome or changed by choice; only one's behaviour can be changed (e.g. one can choose to only pursue relationships with people one is not attracted to physically for ... some reason or other). Changing one's sexual orientation makes about as much sense as ... well ... changing one's sex. Or eye colour. Or whatever.

Love is central to relationships -- without it they will fall apart. Sex is only important in a relationship if both participants deem it important. Asexual couples can still have fulfilling relationships.

(I have a hypothesis that almost everyone is at least slightly bisexual, it's just that those who identify as exclusively hetero- or homosexual simply haven't acknowledged it or haven't found the one person they'd go gay/straight for. But that's just a hypothesis. <.<)

[Maxen von Bismarck]

This thread seems like a tragic pileup of pseudoscience, subjectivity and arbitrary distinctions. Choice, love, sexual orientation and virtually every other buzzword that the OP is trying to address means so many things to so many people that this thread is a ticking flamewar just waiting to happen.

[New Heliopolis]

I would imagine that sexual orientation is too deeply wired into our unconscious to ever be changed -- whether that's because it is significantly governed by hormone levels or by neurobiology. If it's not, why do people who are from very early on socialised to believe that heterosexuality is the only normal orientation and who would experience significant distress and ostracisation if they were not heterosexual, still turn out to be gay -- often after trying to convince themselves they are straight for years? Why don't transsexuals just choose to have a gender identity that matches their sex? Et cetera.

Neurobiology is actually alterable, though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

[Steel and Fire]

I would imagine that sexual orientation is too deeply wired into our unconscious to ever be changed -- whether that's because it is significantly governed by hormone levels or by neurobiology. If it's not, why do people who are from very early on socialised to believe that heterosexuality is the only normal orientation and who would experience significant distress and ostracisation if they were not heterosexual, still turn out to be gay -- often after trying to convince themselves they are straight for years? Why don't transsexuals just choose to have a gender identity that matches their sex? Et cetera.

Neurobiology is actually alterable, though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

The causes of sexual attraction are still debated. Some have argued that it's purely neurological, or purely genetic. More likely is that multiple areas -- both in the brain and out of it -- contribute to sexuality; and while the brain can be altered to a surprising degree, DNA can't be changed*, the endocrine system has to be fucked with by outside forces et cetera.

* in practice, anyway -- otherwise we'd probably have cured a majority of all diseases by now

[Avenio]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

I don't think they can be overcome, not fully. Biologically-speaking, many of the hormones associated with love and sexual attraction are inherently beyond our control; oxytocin, for example, is manufactured by the hypothalamus/pituitary gland, which is, in turn, controlled by the brainstem, a distinctly autonomic part of our brain. It's in the same manner as one can't simply 'decide' to shut off one's heart or think 'Hmm,I think I've had enough β-endorphins today, better not make any more'.

Sexual attraction isn't as powerfully-controlled by the unconscious brain as breathing or heart functioning, but it still is one of the primary reasons we are sexually-attracted to things. Can we do things in spite of those autonomic functions? Sure, but there's likely always going to be that nagging bit of biochem in the back of your head grumbling in protest. Which was my point, really; as with 'training' yourself to love anything, you always have to confront the problem of 'If I have to condition myself for months, if not years at a time to love something, is it really love, or is it a facsimile I've trained myself to feel because of confirmation bias?'.

Since you're choosing to become a lesbian for a dispassionate reason (In this case ideology), I would be hesitant to call it an actual change in sexual orientation; to borrow from the Greeks for a moment, most love today consists of a combination of eros, agape and philia in roughly equal measure, whereas your decision to become a lesbian is stemmed from philia, or almost Platonic love alone.

As a disclaimer, I'm not bashing your choice by any means; whatever floats your boat and all that jazz, I'm merely questioning whether you'd be truly satisfied and happy as a lesbian. Which is, in my mind, the most important thing about one's sexual orientation.

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

I'm of the mind that sexual attraction and love (Of its various varieties) are inextricably entwined, but the degree to which one influences the other individually varies.

[The Anti-Cosmic Gods]

Sexual attraction, sexual orientation, gender, etc aren't these static concepts where one can fit neatly into a box and not ever deviate. Its entirely possible to be a strait woman, become attracted to another woman for whatever reason, and peruse a romantic relationship only to return to male partners (or not return).

[Iuuvic]

I feel like this has been discussed so many times and the debate always ends the same way: everyone (who matters) agrees that orientation is a combo of nature & nuture and the question becomes which is more important in its development...Personally I feel it has far more to do w/ abnormalities during fetal development, probably something to do with proper homeobox transciption & expression especially regarding its influence during the creation of numerous hormone producing cells and the (cortical) folding process...Whether or not these abnormalities are caused by external triggers (thats directed at you, 1000 Cats ) or just a freak sequencing differance *shrug*, dunno. I do feel, though, that we are 'programmed' for a certain orientation but the enviroment can nudge our orientation one way or the other...I don't feel choice has anything to do with sexual orientation, but you can choose to be w/ whoever you want and perhaps even force your brain into an acceptance of your choice; but I think this would be rare (if even possible)...

Thats my 2cents, kind of burned out on this subject since that thread w/ 1000 Cats to be honest.

[Call to power]

Aww man I quite liked reading about your projects progression. Typical fun police.

Anyway, a good many have tried to change their sexuality (but the opposite way) throughout history and from what I can tell it never has a good ending. Try not to hang yourself over this.

what is the role of love in a relationship

Its like a Jam sandwich with the 2 bread slices representing the couple right (add more slices I suppose if you happen to be a freak) and the jam is all the gooey lovely stuff that sticks the couple together but then if one slice of bread turns from vertical to horizontal without the other you end up with generally unpleasant sticky jam all over the place.

So the long term love thing is about being an 'I' not a 'We' and I think that is what proper adult love is.

and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

Yeah but I mean if you aren't banging each then you and your girl aren't clam mates but just some other form of asexual mates

They in fact can, I think, because, well, conditioning is possible.

but then we would surely have already seen the breakthrough what with how many groups try and cure the gay and what-have-you

[1000 Cats]

I feel like this has been discussed so many times and the debate always ends the same way: everyone (who matters) agrees that orientation is a combo of nature & nuture and the question becomes which is more important in its development...Personally I feel it has far more to do w/ abnormalities during fetal development, probably something to do with proper homeobox transciption & expression especially regarding its influence during the creation of numerous hormone producing cells and the (cortical) folding process...Whether or not these abnormalities are caused by external triggers (thats directed at you, 1000 Cats ) or just a freak sequencing differance *shrug*, dunno. I do feel, though, that we are 'programmed' for a certain orientation but the enviroment can nudge our orientation one way or the other...I don't feel choice has anything to do with sexual orientation, but you can choose to be w/ whoever you want and perhaps even force your brain into an acceptance of your choice; but I think this would be rare (if even possible)...

Thats my 2cents, kind of burned out on this subject since that thread w/ 1000 Cats to be honest.

Hooray, I feel important!

I agree here. There are people who say they are "ex-gay" or "ex-pedophiles" or whatever, but it's pretty rare, and whether or not they're being completely honest about their feelings is often up for grabs. I've spent half my pubescent life trying to love things that I don't, and while I suppose I can't really speak for everyone, I'll say that it's pretty damn hard, if not impossible. I don't see why it would be any easier for someone who has a "normal" orientation to "choose" an "abnormal" orientation.

Oh, and I would say that love is everything in a relationship. Sex is just icing on the cake. Or glue, I guess, because it helps sort of solidify things. But tasty glue.

[AiliailiA]

This thread seems like a tragic pileup of pseudoscience, subjectivity and arbitrary distinctions. Choice, love, sexual orientation and virtually every other buzzword that the OP is trying to address means so many things to so many people that this thread is a ticking flamewar just waiting to happen.

Chicken Little: "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
NSGer 1: "What do you mean by sky?"
NSGer 2: "Sky is an optical illusion, created by Raleigh scattering!"
NSGer 3: "There is no such thing as falling anyway"
...
flame-war ?

[Distruzio]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them?

Yes, through discipline.

While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Yes.

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

It is for me. Then again, I'm comfortable with the amount of lust I feel. Others may find it difficult to be attracted to someone and love them, I do not. I trust that, whatever failings I have, the person I love understands my purposes and responds appropriately.

[Risottia]

Similarly,[one i]gnores or attempts to alter the biological component of love and sexual attraction, and, because of that,[one] may not be completely happy with [one's] choice or potentially not be satisfying to any potential partners [one has].

Could be. Not being able to satisfy one's own desires (including subconscious ones) causes frustration.

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice?

I don't think so. The conscious ACTIONS those factors try to drive can be overcome (we can overcome our istincts through willpower), but the factors and the drive will always be there.

Also, there's no sex without love and no standing relationship without physical attraction. At least, that's how I feel.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

actually it is possible to become conditioned to love a cardboard box, it's quite uncommon though.

[Kazomal]

The biological factors that drive 'love', that we are not consciously in control of. Can they be overcome by choice? Can we make ourselves aware of them and influence them? While we cannot perhaps 'fall in love' with a cardboard box, can we choose to start being attracted to people who read certain literature, while choosing to find others unattractive?

Also, what is the role of love in a relationship, and do you think sexual attraction is a central part to a lasting relationship?

They in fact can, I think, because, well, conditioning is possible.

People can break habits, formed from chemical aspects of their brains, people can change aspects of their personality, and well...sex is just one such aspect, in the end.

Some things are more or less susceptible to change and conditioning, thought. Sexual orientation seems to be fairly resistant and set, but people's sexuality and sexual orientation also changes and evolves over their lifetime. The brain is all very mysterious.

[New Heliopolis]

They in fact can, I think, because, well, conditioning is possible.

People can break habits, formed from chemical aspects of their brains, people can change aspects of their personality, and well...sex is just one such aspect, in the end.

Some things are more or less susceptible to change and conditioning, thought. Sexual orientation seems to be fairly resistant and set, but people's sexuality and sexual orientation also changes and evolves over their lifetime. The brain is all very mysterious.

Which does leave the possibility, you must admit...

[Kazomal]

I feel like this has been discussed so many times and the debate always ends the same way: everyone (who matters) agrees that orientation is a combo of nature & nuture and the question becomes which is more important in its development...Personally I feel it has far more to do w/ abnormalities during fetal development, probably something to do with proper homeobox transciption & expression especially regarding its influence during the creation of numerous hormone producing cells and the (cortical) folding process...Whether or not these abnormalities are caused by external triggers (thats directed at you, 1000 Cats ) or just a freak sequencing differance *shrug*, dunno. I do feel, though, that we are 'programmed' for a certain orientation but the enviroment can nudge our orientation one way or the other...I don't feel choice has anything to do with sexual orientation, but you can choose to be w/ whoever you want and perhaps even force your brain into an acceptance of your choice; but I think this would be rare (if even possible)...

Thats my 2cents, kind of burned out on this subject since that thread w/ 1000 Cats to be honest.

Hooray, I feel important!

I agree here. There are people who say they are "ex-gay" or "ex-pedophiles" or whatever, but it's pretty rare, and whether or not they're being completely honest about their feelings is often up for grabs. I've spent half my pubescent life trying to love things that I don't, and while I suppose I can't really speak for everyone, I'll say that it's pretty damn hard, if not impossible. I don't see why it would be any easier for someone who has a "normal" orientation to "choose" an "abnormal" orientation.

Oh, and I would say that love is everything in a relationship. Sex is just icing on the cake. Or glue, I guess, because it helps sort of solidify things. But tasty glue.

^ Basically, these.

[Kazomal]

Some things are more or less susceptible to change and conditioning, thought. Sexual orientation seems to be fairly resistant and set, but people's sexuality and sexual orientation also changes and evolves over their lifetime. The brain is all very mysterious.

Which does leave the possibility, you must admit...

Absolutely, although personally, I feel like sexual orientation is more set than chosen. But I could always be wrong.

[The Yremia Corporate]

please read like Winston Churchill

*flame generals urgent meeting*

It would seem our old foe codenamed "Feminazi" has made a new thread. Trying to restart her old thread about turning a sexual preference: "lesbian" into a horrible mutated ideology known as lesbianism.

Now there are several routes to attack her "stronghold" (see image http://www.ecotopia.co.uk/product_images/medium/BB0124;Warehouse;Warehouse.jpg).

Route 1 - Logic

She continues to believe that you can somehow avoid sexuality and bypass it with ideology. She will argue with pseudo-science myths that you will have no problem defeating this argument. Simple explanations of how sexuality is not a choice or even examples from personnel experience will crush her arguments and bring it to a close.

Route 2 - Natural

If she perseveres on the false idea that somehow nothing is natural and everything is socially constructed. This is a condition of her ideology and so should be fought vigorously with matters of ideology. Once again you can use simple or complex explanations or examples from experience.

Turn around - The Patriarchy and Male Hatred

If the matter of the patriarchy should arise or a matter where she obviously tries to disregard men as inferior, no matter how subtle, she should be notified immediately of the consequences via multiple convincing messages that will break apart the false ideas she holds high.

Finally - Flaming Guidelines

Remember don't go too far, play safe let them take it to the next level before you do.

Now fly safe and flame calmly.