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Best and Worst US Presidents of all time.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Altruistic Paladins
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Postby Altruistic Paladins » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:51 am

Of note, while I do have an opinion, I don't exactly feel like arguing right now. In a few hours, maybe, but now is not the time considering what time it is here. I may provide a brief explanation for a few, but that is when it doesn't seem like an traditional pick.

The Best in no particular order beyond order of presidency.

1. George Washington
2. Abraham Lincoln
3. Theodore Roosevelt
4. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
5. Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower (surprising, it is not like he is quoted in the signature as the first part of it, also of note, the high income brackets had about a 90% income tax, and they were completely fine with it)
6. John Fitzgerald Kennedy
7. Jimmy Carter (this is partly due to sympathy for his economic policies comming into effect under Reagan and him taking the credit for the economic upturn that was caused by them)

The "Worst," which I know is probably going to have a few controversial picks, so remember to agree to disagree and don't get mad, especially when a few had qualities I liked.

1. Andrew Jackson (namely due to his very questionable morality with evicting various native groups on the East Coast through the meaningfully named Trail of Tears, even when one of the five groups it was aimed at got the Supreme Court to rule in favor of them keeping their lands and staying, he still evicted them. I'm not exactly one to like this kind of questionable morality, including manslaughter and disobeying a Supreme Court decision.)
2. James Buchanon
3. Woodrow Wilson (yes, I liked his Fourteen Points, and I think they could have averted World War Two, whatever the effects on the world economy that would have had. This doesn't change what he did to gain the presidency was outright lying. In 1912, a large number of African Americans cast their votes for Woodrow Wilson hoping that he'd live up to his promises to support their issues. What did Wilson do after being elected? He further restricted the rights of African Americans, removed several of them from government positions they had held for years, and further increased segregation, including in departments that hadn't been segregated ever since 1863. When the blacks complained, he told them that "segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen." As a further insult to the African American voting base that helped him to his office, he also said, "If the colored people made a mistake in voting for me, they ought to correct it." The full segregation Wilson installed remained in place until Truman's administration. It is widely regarded that, had he not installed those policies in the first place, more equality for Blacks may have been gained much earlier. He had also come to the defense of a pure embodiment of evil known as the K.K.K., and he was considered racist even for his time. This alone would be enough for me to not like him, but there's more; I just don't feel like making this post longer to avoid making this post too long.)
4. Richard Nixon (he was a good president in some areas, but he commited a crime that never should have been pardoned.
5. Gerald R. Ford (for reasons of pardoning the criminal and helping cause an economic recession)
6. Ronald Reagan (for reasons of taking credit for the economic upturn caused by Jimmy Carter's economic policies comming into effect, and doing other such smart economic decisions as cutting taxes and raising spending at the exact same time, adding a massive amount of debt to the nation)
7. George W. Bush (despite how he seems to have sympathetic roots, I wish he had stuck with baseball. He just was a person who was not of the intelligence to lead the United States of America, and operated on poor intelligence considering the Casus Belli for the Iraq War)
Last edited by Altruistic Paladins on Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cromarty
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Postby Cromarty » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:14 am

Kvatchdom wrote:Best: JFK

Bay of Pigs. 16,000 troops in Vietnam. Ignored Civil Rights Movement. Failed in Laos and Cambodia. Failed in Africa. Caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Just what good did he do again?
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Puissancevise
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Postby Puissancevise » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:18 am

I like Clinton. :)

...but not bush. :( or obama :(
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Belvadaire
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Postby Belvadaire » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:24 am

Worst: All freemason Presidents
Good: very few, kennedy, lincoln, and others that was'nt part of a masonic organization
freemason started this crap ofthe economy, and wars do your own research 8)

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Emporer Pudu
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Postby Emporer Pudu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:33 am

Worst - Reagen for me. He was an imbecile when it came to our cold war strategy and under his reign the world came closer to nuclear destruction than ever in the history of the 20th century. Operation Able Archer anyone? The Soviet's were damn terrified of us, and with good reason. Reagan was flying nuclear armed bombers straight at Soviet airspace, turning around only at the last second. This is almost certainly why the Soviets were so quick to shoot down that Korean Air passenger jet - they thought it was another US bomber trolling them. Reagan refused to attend strategy meetings in which US brass would discuss our nuclear contingency plans, because he thought it was disturbing to talk about the "Apocalypse". Seriously?

Personally it is my opinion that the entire Cold War, especially Reagan's absolute departure from detante, was a calculated move by the United States "military-industrial complex" to allow for dramatically overspending on defense projects. There was almost no point in the so-called Cold War that the Soviets were legitimately more dangerous than we were, and these times are directly after the defeat of Nazi Germany, when the Red Army was still mobilized and sitting in Eastern Europe. The artificial hatred of the Soviets (who were obviously not angels themselves) and the inflated defense spending completely dominated decades of American thought and spending.

You might imagine, Eisenhower is among my favorite presidents of all time, along with my bro FD-Roosevelt.

Edit- Clinton was also a good president, even if his administration was distracted at the end by the scandal. He ran a surplus, he has to be up there for the modern presidents in almost any list.
Last edited by Emporer Pudu on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Misterfisher minions
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Postby Misterfisher minions » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:39 am

Best:
-Thomas Jefferson
-James Madison
- Ronnie Reagan

Worst:
-Roosevelt
-Carter
-Obama
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Revolutopia
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Postby Revolutopia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:39 am

Cromarty wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:Best: JFK

Bay of Pigs. 16,000 troops in Vietnam. Ignored Civil Rights Movement. Failed in Laos and Cambodia. Failed in Africa. Caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Just what good did he do again?


Why no means the greatest JFK does got to his name...
1.Despite your allegations regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis he was successful in handling it.
2.Started the Peace Corp
3.Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
4.Sent Federal troops and U.S Marshals to support attempts by African American students to integrate two Southern Universities.
5.Helped launch the initiative that LBJ later turned into the Civil Rights Act.
6.Created the Presidential Commission on the Status of Women, thus giving insight to women's rights
7.Helped propose what became the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, thus shifting the country's immigration policies to be more favorable to immigrants from the Americas and not only Europe.
8.Started the Space Race
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Emporer Pudu
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Postby Emporer Pudu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:45 am

Furthermore: Polk was a violent imperialist and Truman initiated a nuclear holocaust. Both were bad presidents. G. W. Bush was a stupid (literally) puppet and rabid ethnocentrist.

JFK was a good president in my opinion only on the laurels of the successful space program he helped energize. Was he president when we put the nuclear missiles in Turkey? That was a bad move, that's a big black mark on whoever did that.

George Washington was a great president, he knew America should mind it's business and not fcuk with the rest of the world, and we should have listened. Sorry George.

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Revolutopia
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Postby Revolutopia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:54 am

Emporer Pudu wrote:JFK was a good president in my opinion only on the laurels of the successful space program he helped energize. Was he president when we put the nuclear missiles in Turkey? That was a bad move, that's a big black mark on whoever did that.

That was Ike.
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:54 am

Best US President of all time: FDR. He effectively combated the Great Depression, gave covert aid to countries resisting Nazi tyranny, effectively prosecuted the wars in Europe and the Pacific (mostly by finding good generals and getting out of their way) and effectively brought the Presidency back down to earth after Hoover and Coolidges' aloof natures.

Worst US President of all time: George W. Bush. Presided over two recessions, defanged the regulatory agencies that may have predicted the bursting of the real estate bubble, started two wars without levying taxes to pay for them (a near-first in US history), turned the $1.5trn projected national debt into $12.5trn (I'm not penalizing him for the "technical and economic" adjustments - those are outside any President's control), accelerated the hollowing-out of America's middle class and then rewarded the very banks which had blown up the economy with unconditional bailouts.

Most over-rated President of all time: JFK. Granted, he was a good President - his resolve got America through the Cuban Missile Crisis and his efforts to establish an enlightened US leadership of the Americas would have been pivotal had the Democrats remained in power to pursue them. However, the Bay of Pigs fiasco, combined with Kennedy's initation of US involvement in Vietnam, mean that his Presidency hardly deserves the golden glow of perfection-that-never-was which has surrounded it since.

Most under-rated President of all time: James Garfield - a charismatic and energetic President whose administration was cut short by assassination. He had the courage to pursue civil service reform, civil rights and universal education.

The friendly but not effective President: Franklin Pierce. A genial, affable and popular person, he was unequal to the task - as perhaps any person would have been - of reconciling slaveowners and emancipationists.

The effective but not friendly President: Richard Nixon. His extensive ethical deficiencies aside, Richard Nixon was a highly-effective President. Indeed, many have wondered why he bothered to resort to dirty tricks to win 1972, given that it was already going to be a cakewalk for him. But Lord, that man had a foul mouth! Kinda like Bob Hawke in that regard - my grandfather once remarked that he ran into Hawke in Kingsford Smith Airport in the 1980s, and thereafter resolved never to vote for him again - "he turned the air blue" around him, apparently, and treated his ostensible friends rather roughly.

So, there it is. Reprobates, statesmen and dogs - six of the more remarkable Presidents of US history, IMO.
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Seibertron
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Postby Seibertron » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:57 am

Best: Have to say John F. Kennedy, because of the civil rights movement
Worst: Bush, Hoover, Buchanan
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Northern Lancashire
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Postby Northern Lancashire » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:58 am

Best: Reagan, Nixon, Jefferson
Worst: Carter, Hoover, Buchanan
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Annabon
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Postby Annabon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:00 am

The lepearchauns wrote:Best of all time...tough. FD Roosevelt is toward the top. He guided us out of the great depression and then through the deadliest attack and biggest war of our countries history
Honorable mention...I feel weird saying it...but Clinton was a darn good president. He kept a pretty solid economy through the 90s and mostly managed to avoid war. Thats all you can ask for nowadays.

Agree with this.
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Altruistic Paladins
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Postby Altruistic Paladins » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:01 am

Belvadaire wrote:Worst: All freemason Presidents
Good: very few, kennedy, lincoln, and others that was'nt part of a masonic organization
freemason started this crap ofthe economy, and wars do your own research 8)


I'd hate to bring this up, but there was evidence that Freemasons were victims of the same treatment given to the Jewish, including anti-masonic propoganda and genocide. Using a logical fallacy, I could say you agree with Hitler like one could do with those that support anti-hunting legislation agree with Hitler. Godwin's Law is pretty hilarious. Also of note, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a mason, and Hitler hated him the most out of the big three, and he is easily one of my favorite presidents. Some notable highlights of people who were masons are:

François-Marie Arouet "Voltaire"
Benjamin Franklin
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"
Earl Warren
Winston Churchill
George Washington
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt

I don't know about you, but Voltaire was one of the major influences of the governing philosophy of the United States; Benjammin Franklin was a founding father, philanthropist, and scientist that contributed greatly in any field he took part in; Samuel Clemens is one of the great American writers who practically defined American literature; Earl Warren was a justice whose decisions helped the Civil Rights Movement massively and defended the rights of the accused and due process; Winston Churchill was a great and snarky Prime Minister; George Washington was a god among men in terms of his leadership; Theodore Roosevelt was decades ahead of his time in how progressive he was and a badass, and Franklin Roosevelt pulled the United States out of the Great Depression and got her in fighting shape for World War Two. I don't know about you, but I'm sure I can't say being a mason has a negative impact in terms of leadership or influence, Also of note, Abraham Lincoln applied to be a mason, but soon stopped when he realized it could be seen as a political ploy, and thus said he'd avoid being a mason until he left the office, which didn't happen as he though unfortunately, so one of the great figures you mentioned was actually trying to become a mason and had a large enough amount of respect for them that he avoided any thinking that he was being superficial about it.
Last edited by Altruistic Paladins on Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:18 am

Revolutopia wrote:
Emporer Pudu wrote:JFK was a good president in my opinion only on the laurels of the successful space program he helped energize. Was he president when we put the nuclear missiles in Turkey? That was a bad move, that's a big black mark on whoever did that.

That was Ike.


Correct. Eisenhower placed them there in an attempt to cow Kruschchev into quietude; Kennedy withdrew them in a deal negotiated with the USSR, which saw Soviet missiles withdrawn from Cuba.
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Tmutarakhan
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Postby Tmutarakhan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:37 am

Dracoria wrote:
Tmutarakhan wrote:Many other presidents also failed to kill bin Laden! George Washington, for example, never killed any Muslims at all as far as I know :p


Aaaactually...The conflicts with Barbary pirates had begun even before Washington's election. Heck, during his presidency the USN was established primarily to defend US shipping from said piracy. So while he didn't directly kill any Muslims, he did set up for coming conflict with a Muslim state.

Well that was my only point there: he didn't kill bin Laden! (or even the bin Laden equivalent of his time)
Dracoria wrote:Kind of funny that Morocco was the first nation to recognize the US as independent from Britain - since this meant their sailors could attack US shipping without British intervention.

And Washington paid off the terrorists!
Ruridova wrote:Can agree with you on most of that, except for the stuff on Polk. Where I live(check signature), Polk, being the guy who brought my state into the Union, has pretty damn good press and the Mexican-American War a legitimate fight. You've got to remember most of those in Texas then were Americans who had come during the Empresario periods, and most felt American even during Mexican and Texan rule. So, yeah, everything you said but the stuff on Polk.

Well I'm glad we have California and Oregon, but think it a little unfortunate that we had to take Texas and Utah as part of the deal :p
I did say Polk's war was better than Bush's in the respect that we at least gained something from it (Bush's invasion of Iraq killed more American boys than bin Laden's attack on the WTC, plus an uncountable number of Iraqis, enough that all we have gained from it is resentment). But I can't really call it a "legitimate" fight; I am more inclined to the views of Grant and Sherman, that it was basically just a big kid on the schoolyard beating up a smaller one. However, I would rate Polk rather high because he honestly stated his intentions in the campaign, fulfilled his promises, and then stopped at one term; and for coming up with a great line in response to a reporter who wouldn't believe he wasn't running for re-election just because he had finished what he wanted to do, and demanded the real reason why he wasn't running: "Because this job gives me diarrhea!"
Anitgrum wrote:No Khurshchev placed nuclear missiles in Cuba in retaliation for the U.S placement of Jupiter missiles in Turkey.

No, no, no. The Jupiters were our oldest missiles; their placement in Turkey was planned by Truman and implemented by Eisenhower. Khrushchev raised them during the discussions because he wanted some quid-pro-quo for removing missiles from Cuba; Kennedy told him the Jupiters were being retired soon anyway and there were no plans to replace them, but that Khrushchev could tell the Politburo that was part of the deal if it would help; Khrushchev wanted that public, and Kennedy refused. There was no equivalency because (again: I don't think you understood what I was telling you before) there were tacit and explicit agreeements about which areas were US or USSR spheres of influence. Turkey was not analogous to Cuba: it would be more analogous if we had placed missiles in Lithuania, after supporting a rebellion there.
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Postby Risottia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:58 am

Altruistic Paladins wrote:Some notable highlights of people who were masons are:

François-Marie Arouet "Voltaire"
Benjamin Franklin
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"
Earl Warren
Winston Churchill
George Washington
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt


Also freemasons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licio_Gelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_E ... _of_Naples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilio_Massera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_L%C3%B3pez_Rega
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_ ... 1rez_Mason
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Sindona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Miceli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Cicchitto

So, you know, the freemasonry is just like any other human group. Full of good people and of total jerks.
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Altruistic Paladins
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Postby Altruistic Paladins » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:53 am

Risottia wrote:
Altruistic Paladins wrote:Some notable highlights of people who were masons are:

François-Marie Arouet "Voltaire"
Benjamin Franklin
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"
Earl Warren
Winston Churchill
George Washington
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt


Also freemasons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licio_Gelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_E ... _of_Naples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilio_Massera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_L%C3%B3pez_Rega
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_ ... 1rez_Mason
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Sindona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Miceli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Cicchitto

So, you know, the freemasonry is just like any other human group. Full of good people and of total jerks.


Exactly, I think it isn't going to hinder anybody at least, but there are great communities to be found in masonry. My main point was a counter to his anti-masonic paranoia commonly found in the kinds of groups one gererally doesn't want to associate with. Yes, there have been jerks and/or idiots in it; I was just saying it at the very least isn't doing any wrong to such great leaders as Theodore Roosevelt considering the great figures that were in it or were trying to join it.
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Postby Lesbia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:17 pm

A more serious answer, I think the best goes to Abraham Lincoln. (I remember reading something earlier in the year that ranked him as the best president by popular choice, followed by Washington.) Obviously, the historical presidencies of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson rank amongst the highest. Unlike some of you, I find the way George W. Bush handled things perfectly acceptable. I've only been alive for Bill Clinton, GWB, and Barack Obama, but Bush is definitely the best of those three, in my book. Of course, Obama's term has yet to end, but I don't see very much promise. (Then again, all of the promise from his administration is retracted in time and rendered a lie. Real "change.")
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:58 pm

Tmutarakhan wrote:You must be too young to remember the Cold War. There was an agreed demarcation of spheres of influence: the United States would not intervene on behalf of Hungary or Czechoslovakia because of the Yalta agreement, and contrariwise did not accept the USSR's right to make "allies" in the Western Hemisphere (the US had proclaimed since Monroe that everyone else should stay out of Latin America, and after the end of our Civil War that had been respected). For the USSR to go further and make Cuba into a nuclear base was a total provocation, which Khrushchev undertook only because JFK had decided not to react forcefully to the Berlin Wall, which Khrushchev mistook as a sign of weakness (and no, the East German government would not have built that wall if Khrushchev had told them not to; they had no more ability to resist Soviet tanks than Hungary or Czechoslovakia). The Politburo thought Khrushchev's "reckless adventurism" had damaged Soviet interests; they would have fired him more quickly, except that of course the conspirational wrangling for positions in the replacement government had to take place in quiet whispers, which took over a year.

If Khrushchev told them not to after they had already started, they'd look like puppets and fools even moreso than they already did. :roll:

And the Yalta Conference was not only ignored, but also included nothing about nonintervention.
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Nixon is a mixed bag. It's my contention that most of the "good" he did was quite honestly unintentional. To his credit, he brought peace to Vietnam, albeit in a much more roundabout way than Americans had wanted. His efforts did, however, bring him fierce opposition in Congress that eventually made the entire war, especially his expansion of such to force a peace, all for nothing.

The worst thing, and it's something I believe Nixon later stated was his "Only regret," was that he absolutely destroyed the last vestige of credibility in American politics. After the Watergate scandal and Nixon's resignation, public opinion was decidedly that "Politics is for crooks," which I think has led a lot to the situation we're in now. All these decent, honest men and women of the generation to be in power now saw Nixon's scandal and thought to themselves "Politics isn't for me, I can't become a liar and a cheat."
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Postby Keronians » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:40 pm

1. Abraham Lincoln
2. Franklin D Roosevelt
3. George Washington
4. Thomas Jefferson
5. Theodore Roosevelt

Bottom five:

5. William Henry Harrison
4. Martin Van Buren
3. Franklin Pierce
2. James Buchanan
1. Herbert Hoover
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It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.
George Orwell
· Private property
· Free foreign trade
· Exchange of goods and services
· Free formation of prices

· Market regulation
· Social security
· Universal healthcare
· Unemployment insurance

This is a capitalist model.

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Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 111674
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:05 pm

Keronians wrote:1. Abraham Lincoln
2. Franklin D Roosevelt
3. George Washington
4. Thomas Jefferson
5. Theodore Roosevelt

Bottom five:

5. William Henry Harrison
4. Martin Van Buren
3. Franklin Pierce
2. James Buchanan
1. Herbert Hoover

What's ironic is, the Presidency is the least successful thing Herbert Hoover ever did.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Soxastan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9808
Founded: May 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Soxastan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:28 pm

Best

1: George Washington
2: Abraham Lincoln
3: FDR
4: Theodore Roosevelt
5: LBJ

Honorable mentions: Nixon, Jefferson, and Eisenhower

Worst

1: Herbert Hoover
2: James Buchanan
3: Millard Fillmore
4: John Adams
5: John Quincy Adams

Dishonorable mentions: Reagan, Andrew Johnson, and Jackson

Most underrated: Nixon

Most overrated: Kennedy

Coolest voice: Kennedy

Most badass: TR

Best Facial hair: Taft

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Anitgrum
Diplomat
 
Posts: 914
Founded: Aug 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Anitgrum » Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:53 am

Tmutarakhan wrote:No, no, no. The Jupiters were our oldest missiles; their placement in Turkey was planned by Truman and implemented by Eisenhower. Khrushchev raised them during the discussions because he wanted some quid-pro-quo for removing missiles from Cuba; Kennedy told him the Jupiters were being retired soon anyway and there were no plans to replace them, but that Khrushchev could tell the Politburo that was part of the deal if it would help; Khrushchev wanted that public, and Kennedy refused. There was no equivalency because (again: I don't think you understood what I was telling you before) there were tacit and explicit agreements about which areas were US or USSR spheres of influence. Turkey was not analogous to Cuba: it would be more analogous if we had placed missiles in Lithuania, after supporting a rebellion there.


1No The Jupiter Missiles were originally planned to be deployed in France. However the French refused so they were instead placed in Italy and Turkey. All of which happen during the Eisenhower second term.
2That is horrible analogy Cuba was never part of the U.S. Estonia on the other hand was part of the USSR. A more accurate analogy would be if the US supported a regime change in Czecho- Slovakia and deployed missiles there.
Last edited by Anitgrum on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

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