Gaslighting

[Femnipotent]

It has been over two weeks since I first embarked on a journey to pull away from males and male-influence as much as possible in order to better deconstruct my femininity. One concept that has become increasingly important to me in understanding both reactions to my decision as well as the process of deconstruction itself is gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a term often used in the context of abusive relationships. I was aware of the dynamic before this process of withdrawal and reflection, but only within the context of the battered women I work with. The wiki article linked to explains it like this:

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

I think that when it comes to gender relations in our society (as well as a host of other complex relationships centered around race, class and so on) there is a social gaslighting going on. Some of it is consciously carried out, but in the main, just as is the case with many abusers, the gaslighting is almost unconscious. The men and women who engage in gendered violence (physical or psychological) use gaslighting as a tactic to make us believe that perhaps we're 'just imagining it', 'over-reacting', 'being sensitive', 'not seeing it properly'.

Gaslighting, I find, seems to work best when the person using this tactic is calm and seemingly rational. The gaslighter will rely on studies and statistics to convince you that wet is dry and has always been thus.

Trying to understand instances of gaslighting both in individual relationships and on a larger social scale is extremely difficult when you are a participant. This is why an abused woman for example has a very hard time being able to thwart gaslighting when her abuser is using it on her to convince her that she is responsible for her abuse, while an outside observer probably has little difficulty seeing this.

So I wanted to discuss the concept of and methods of gaslighting, as well as exploring how on earth you can go about identifying it on a social level when you are 'blinded by inclusion'.

Thoughts?

[Yavin 1221]

You know, until I read this, I was unsure of how to name the situation my friend went through. Gaslighting seems to fit with the way she was treated, and told things to convince her otherwise of what she knew was not true.

Well, I guess being "blinded by inclusion", one can ask a close friend to help examine the situation by being given details (whatever the person "included" feels comfortable saying"). I've been working on helping my friend see this type of thing from her situation...

[Alaje]

I completely agree with you on this topic, being immersed in a potentially harmful atmosphere is very hard to notice when it's been the norm for as long as you remember. It takes a lot of thinking outside the box to notice such things, and most people don't have the mental capacity to do that.

[Femnipotent]

You know, until I read this, I was unsure of how to name the situation my friend went through. Gaslighting seems to fit with the way she was treated, and told things to convince her otherwise of what she knew was not true.

Well, I guess being "blinded by inclusion", one can ask a close friend to help examine the situation by being given details (whatever the person "included" feels comfortable saying"). I've been working on helping my friend see this type of thing from her situation...

In individual situations that can work, and a great deal of the work we do with women is to examine past behaviours in a more critical light. However when there is social gaslighting going on, who is your 'close friend'? An ally? China? Some alien race?

[Yootwopia]

Any time people seek to pull statistics or studies out at me in a 'normal' argument, my brain usually goes onto "they are just saying total bullshit" mode. I guess it could be effective against people who are feeling a bit insecure and love revealed wisdom, though.

[Yavin 1221]

You know, until I read this, I was unsure of how to name the situation my friend went through. Gaslighting seems to fit with the way she was treated, and told things to convince her otherwise of what she knew was not true.

Well, I guess being "blinded by inclusion", one can ask a close friend to help examine the situation by being given details (whatever the person "included" feels comfortable saying"). I've been working on helping my friend see this type of thing from her situation...

In individual situations that can work, and a great deal of the work we do with women is to examine past behaviours in a more critical light. However when there is social gaslighting going on, who is your 'close friend'? An ally? China? Some alien race?

I guess "close friend" would be someone you can confide in. Perhaps a person you've known your whole life who has always been your friend. And, I guess, at times the viewpoint of someone nowhere near the situation can help an individual gain perspective on said situation. Like a psychologist, for example.

[Femnipotent]

I completely agree with you on this topic, being immersed in a potentially harmful atmosphere is very hard to notice when it's been the norm for as long as you remember. It takes a lot of thinking outside the box to notice such things, and most people don't have the mental capacity to do that.

It is amazing how insidious the process is, and how often it is an unconscious process in even the abuser's mind. I have come to accept that in many cases, the abuser engaged in gaslighting actually believes that their version of the events is the correct one. When you are discussing things like 'tone' or 'intent', how can you possibly refute the way someone sees the same events in a manner so differently from you?

When it occurs on a social level, and there are all these unexamined core beliefs about gender that influence people's reactions to certain situations and you want to change that, how do you go about deconstructing this so that:

a) you understand what is happening and,
b) other people engaging in the gaslighting see what they are doing and,
c) rather than justifying it, try to change?

It can take intense counselling to get an abuser to first see their own behaviours as abusive and then learn new ways to behave. How do you do that for a whole society? Is it even possible?

[Femnipotent]

I guess "close friend" would be someone you can confide in. Perhaps a person you've known your whole life who has always been your friend. And, I guess, at times the viewpoint of someone nowhere near the situation can help an individual gain perspective on said situation. Like a psychologist, for example.

Again in an individual situation that isn't too difficult. But if society as a whole is structured to 'gaslight' certain views or as more frequently is the case to ensure certain behaviours, then no one in that society can truly be trusted to be your impartial viewer.

[Call to power]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.

I'm not so sure gaslighting can take place in our society on a grand scale. Whilst I am aware certain attitudes towards for example gender can be ingrained I think the sheer amount of information sources we are exposed to in our modern world should be enough to offset this balance. An example was made in the book SuperFreakonomics that women in rural India suffered a dramatic drop both in domestic abuse and child marriage with the introduction of the tv show 'Friends' into their homes which exposed them to our western way of looking at gender equality (and smelly cats).

[Yavin 1221]

I guess "close friend" would be someone you can confide in. Perhaps a person you've known your whole life who has always been your friend. And, I guess, at times the viewpoint of someone nowhere near the situation can help an individual gain perspective on said situation. Like a psychologist, for example.

Again in an individual situation that isn't too difficult. But if society as a whole is structured to 'gaslight' certain views or as more frequently is the case to ensure certain behaviours, then no one in that society can truly be trusted to be your impartial viewer.

I've noticed that is the problem with most situations these days involving "abuse" that are brought to public eye.

I agree with you on all of this, of course. The "certain behaviours" I can see when an individual is reluctant to come forward about something that has happened to them, because they have seen so many cases in the public eye go unchanged because of "insufficient" or "inconclusive" evidence.

[Femnipotent]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.

I'm not so sure gaslighting can take place in our society on a grand scale. Whilst I am aware certain attitudes towards for example gender can be ingrained I think the sheer amount of information sources we are exposed to in our modern world should be enough to offset this balance. An example was made in the book SuperFreakonomics that women in rural India suffered a dramatic drop both in domestic abuse and child marriage with the introduction of the tv show 'Friends' into their homes which exposed them to our western way of looking at gender equality (and smelly cats).

I honestly take the position that the whole "we are too intelligent and sophisticated and free to fall for that" position you've described above is a very active and important part of social gaslighting.

Many abused women also end up not realising just how abusive their relationships are because they too consider themselves intelligent, sophisticated, and aware. That they end up in abusive relationships does not mean these qualities do not exist in them. However, they have not been prepared to see and avoid the abuse. They are smart women, gutsy women, but when abuse 'creeps up' on you slowly it's like slowly boiling a frog versus tossing one into already boiling water. You just don't notice because it's been normalised by then. They have been taught that only ignorant women 'who don't know any better' end up in abusive relationships. I suppose the comparison here would be that we are raised to believe that only 'ignorant' cultures and societies can be socially abusive.

On a social level if we believe 'no that can't happen because we're too wise', then we are wholly unprepared for the reality of social abuse.

[Yavin 1221]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.

I'm not so sure gaslighting can take place in our society on a grand scale. Whilst I am aware certain attitudes towards for example gender can be ingrained I think the sheer amount of information sources we are exposed to in our modern world should be enough to offset this balance. An example was made in the book SuperFreakonomics that women in rural India suffered a dramatic drop both in domestic abuse and child marriage with the introduction of the tv show 'Friends' into their homes which exposed them to our western way of looking at gender equality (and smelly cats).

I honestly take the position that the whole "we are too intelligent and sophisticated and free to fall for that" position you've described above is a very active and important part of social gaslighting.

Many abused women also end up not realising just how abusive their relationships are because they too consider themselves intelligent, sophisticated, and aware. That they end up in abusive relationships does not mean these qualities do not exist in them. However, they have not been prepared to see and avoid the abuse. They are smart women, gutsy women, but when abuse 'creeps up' on you slowly it's like slowly boiling a frog versus tossing one into already boiling water. You just don't notice because it's been normalised by then. They have been taught that only ignorant women 'who don't know any better' end up in abusive relationships. I suppose the comparison here would be that we are raised to believe that only 'ignorant' cultures and societies can be socially abusive.

On a social level if we believe 'no that can't happen because we're too wise', then we are wholly unprepared for the reality of social abuse.

^This.

[Rio Cana]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.
.

I thought the same thing.

Then I thought if it had anything to do with that old movie "Gaslight". Seems it does. Read this which you must copy and paste.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)

[Femnipotent]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.
.

I thought the same thing.

Then I thought if it had anything to do with that old movie "Gaslight". Seems it does. Read this which you must copy and paste.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)

The origin of the term and its reference to that movie is in the link I provided already.

[Lackadaisical2]

I agree, life has a male bias.

[Tahar Joblis]

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

I think that when it comes to gender relations in our society (as well as a host of other complex relationships centered around race, class and so on) there is a social gaslighting going on. Some of it is consciously carried out, but in the main, just as is the case with many abusers, the gaslighting is almost unconscious. The men and women who engage in gendered violence (physical or psychological) use gaslighting as a tactic to make us believe that perhaps we're 'just imagining it', 'over-reacting', 'being sensitive', 'not seeing it properly'.

False information about gender relations is presented socially; but that doesn't match very well the definition offered for gaslighting, which relies on intent. Delusion and denial are phenomena in their own right.

The common tactic of shifting blame to the abused is something I do expect most abusers do unconsciously. I have an ex who fits the definition of "verbally abusive" to a T (this, of course, has something to do with the reason why we're no longer together); and to gauge by what I heard in the pub the other week, this hasn't changed one bit. I'm fairly sure my ex is unaware of this close match; and know that my ex simply claims all the fault lies with the people my ex has dated. They're just "not good enough."

Gaslighting, I find, seems to work best when the person using this tactic is calm and seemingly rational. The gaslighter will rely on studies and statistics to convince you that wet is dry and has always been thus.

Deception using studies won't hold up very well if you actually critically examine studies.

For example, the popular "1 in 4" figure for women in college getting raped is based on fairly poorly worded surveys implicitly using a flawed definition of rape, and is certainly an inflated figure; and the actual rate of rapes that are reported is almost certainly a deflated figure. Claiming that five sixths of all domestic violence arrests are of men ignores police bias; more careful metrics reveal this bias and a general class of biases by which we class females as blameless and males as culpable under similar circumstances. Black crime rates look exceptionally high ... and then when you control for income and education, that difference fades to something rather less significant.

Trying to understand instances of gaslighting both in individual relationships and on a larger social scale is extremely difficult when you are a participant. This is why an abused woman for example has a very hard time being able to thwart gaslighting when her abuser is using it on her to convince her that she is responsible for her abuse, while an outside observer probably has little difficulty seeing this.

So I wanted to discuss the concept of and methods of gaslighting, as well as exploring how on earth you can go about identifying it on a social level when you are 'blinded by inclusion'.

Thoughts?

I think that the sorts of social delusion you're talking about are present, particularly when it comes to abuse of men by women; but I don't think it's a general rule. In many cases, we have plenty of denial that there is a problem (e.g., w.r.t. racism) but also plenty of people very loudly and vocally panicking about the problem.

My answer on the social level is rigorous and thoughtful empiricism. Science works, in other words. Empiricism is really the only way we can identify social delusion. On the personal level, identifying delusion requires keeping records, I think. Journals, diaries, logs, those sorts of things.

[Provosa]

But gaslighting happens in male-male and female-female relationships as well. It's the consequence of conditional love, aka "I love you, you're perfect, now change."

It's valuable to love yourself, and to recognize when someone is making judgments about your feelings that you have a right to be peeved about and defend yourself for. Not necessarily to be angry and swing your blade, but to unsheath it as a warning. Some personalities are always bound to make judgments though, and it's not always a bad thing. See Meyers-Briggs psychology. :]

[Femnipotent]

But gaslighting happens in male-male and female-female relationships as well. It's the consequence of conditional love, aka "I love you, you're perfect, now change."

Gaslighting happens in all forms of relationships, whether the relationship is romantic, whether it's between relatives or even friends. Any abusive relationship can feature gaslighting as a tactic of abuse.

It's valuable to love yourself, and to recognize when someone is making judgments about your feelings that you have a right to be peeved about and defend yourself for. Not necessarily to be angry and swing your blade, but to unsheath it as a warning. Some personalities are always bound to make judgments though, and it's not always a bad thing. See Meyers-Briggs psychology. :]

This does not get us anywhere closer to recognising gaslighting either on an individual or social level, nor does it help us stop it.

[Wikkiwallana]

Genuinely upset this topic isn't about gas powered lighting.

I'm not so sure gaslighting can take place in our society on a grand scale. Whilst I am aware certain attitudes towards for example gender can be ingrained I think the sheer amount of information sources we are exposed to in our modern world should be enough to offset this balance. An example was made in the book SuperFreakonomics that women in rural India suffered a dramatic drop both in domestic abuse and child marriage with the introduction of the tv show 'Friends' into their homes which exposed them to our western way of looking at gender equality (and smelly cats).

I honestly take the position that the whole "we are too intelligent and sophisticated and free to fall for that" position you've described above is a very active and important part of social gaslighting.

Many abused women also end up not realising just how abusive their relationships are because they too consider themselves intelligent, sophisticated, and aware. That they end up in abusive relationships does not mean these qualities do not exist in them. However, they have not been prepared to see and avoid the abuse. They are smart women, gutsy women, but when abuse 'creeps up' on you slowly it's like slowly boiling a frog versus tossing one into already boiling water. You just don't notice because it's been normalised by then. They have been taught that only ignorant women 'who don't know any better' end up in abusive relationships. I suppose the comparison here would be that we are raised to believe that only 'ignorant' cultures and societies can be socially abusive.

On a social level if we believe 'no that can't happen because we're too wise', then we are wholly unprepared for the reality of social abuse.

Can you provide some further examples? Because I'm just not seeing it.

Also, that frog analogy needs to end because it's not accurate. A frog will eventually get uncomfortable with the rising temperature and try to leave.

Edit: typo

[Femnipotent]

I think examples of social gaslighting would be the way that men (and women) are socialised to see women as overly emotional, non-rational beings. Thus when women bring up legitimate concerns about their position in society, they are gaslighted into believing that they are imagining it.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm really not sure you should be on NS if you're trying to get rid of male influence. Weren't you also going to get rid of TV or someshit?

[Galloism]

I think that when it comes to gender relations in our society (as well as a host of other complex relationships centered around race, class and so on) there is a social gaslighting going on. Some of it is consciously carried out, but in the main, just as is the case with many abusers, the gaslighting is almost unconscious. The men and women who engage in gendered violence (physical or psychological) use gaslighting as a tactic to make us believe that perhaps we're 'just imagining it', 'over-reacting', 'being sensitive', 'not seeing it properly'.

False information about gender relations is presented socially; but that doesn't match very well the definition offered for gaslighting, which relies on intent. Delusion and denial are phenomena in their own right.

The common tactic of shifting blame to the abused is something I do expect most abusers do unconsciously. I have an ex who fits the definition of "verbally abusive" to a T (this, of course, has something to do with the reason why we're no longer together); and to gauge by what I heard in the pub the other week, this hasn't changed one bit. I'm fairly sure my ex is unaware of this close match; and know that my ex simply claims all the fault lies with the people my ex has dated. They're just "not good enough."

Gaslighting, I find, seems to work best when the person using this tactic is calm and seemingly rational. The gaslighter will rely on studies and statistics to convince you that wet is dry and has always been thus.

Deception using studies won't hold up very well if you actually critically examine studies.

For example, the popular "1 in 4" figure for women in college getting raped is based on fairly poorly worded surveys implicitly using a flawed definition of rape, and is certainly an inflated figure; and the actual rate of rapes that are reported is almost certainly a deflated figure. Claiming that five sixths of all domestic violence arrests are of men ignores police bias; more careful metrics reveal this bias and a general class of biases by which we class females as blameless and males as culpable under similar circumstances. Black crime rates look exceptionally high ... and then when you control for income and education, that difference fades to something rather less significant.

Trying to understand instances of gaslighting both in individual relationships and on a larger social scale is extremely difficult when you are a participant. This is why an abused woman for example has a very hard time being able to thwart gaslighting when her abuser is using it on her to convince her that she is responsible for her abuse, while an outside observer probably has little difficulty seeing this.

So I wanted to discuss the concept of and methods of gaslighting, as well as exploring how on earth you can go about identifying it on a social level when you are 'blinded by inclusion'.

Thoughts?

I think that the sorts of social delusion you're talking about are present, particularly when it comes to abuse of men by women; but I don't think it's a general rule. In many cases, we have plenty of denial that there is a problem (e.g., w.r.t. racism) but also plenty of people very loudly and vocally panicking about the problem.

My answer on the social level is rigorous and thoughtful empiricism. Science works, in other words. Empiricism is really the only way we can identify social delusion. On the personal level, identifying delusion requires keeping records, I think. Journals, diaries, logs, those sorts of things.

You have a penis.

Your opinion is invalid.

This statement has been brought to you by the separatist feminism movement for gender equality.

[Galloism]

I'm really not sure you should be on NS if you're trying to get rid of male influence. Weren't you also going to get rid of TV or someshit?

She's done it by ignoring all posters with a penis.

This is done in the name of gender equality.

[Rennebourg]

... ... ... congrats?

[Dumb Ideologies]

That awkward moment when you realise there's a word for what you regularly do (in the context of control issues rather than violent abuse) in your relationships -and it is being mentioned in the context of abuse. Whoops.