Greek PM leaves future of the country to the people?

[Cosmopoles]

From the opposite aisle: hear, hear!

Financiers wobbling their jowls in anger at Greece's 'temerity' to look towards the democratic process is one of the ugliest sights of this year. When a call for democratic legitimacy is judged on the reaction within the stock market, you know you're through the looking glass.

Not as ugly a sight as witnessing a politician's attempt to fob off a tough decision in order to save his political career, potentially wrecking not just his own country's economy but that of a whole continent, being described as democratic legitimacy.

The Greek public want one decision but desire an outcome entirely different to what that decision will cause. I don't see how its 'democratic' to do what the people want but not give them what they want.

[Allrule]

From the opposite aisle: hear, hear!

Financiers wobbling their jowls in anger at Greece's 'temerity' to look towards the democratic process is one of the ugliest sights of this year. When a call for democratic legitimacy is judged on the reaction within the stock market, you know you're through the looking glass.

Not as ugly a sight as witnessing a politician's attempt to fob off a tough decision in order to save his political career, potentially wrecking not just his own country's economy but that of a whole continent

Actually, it could be much more than just Europe. The day after Papandreou announced the referendum, the Dow Jones fell by almost 300 points. Yes, by simply calling for a referendum, Papandreou caused a 300-point drop in the DJ average..

An economic collapse in Europe would almost certainly be disasterous for the US, and quite possibly the world.

[Keronians]

Not as ugly a sight as witnessing a politician's attempt to fob off a tough decision in order to save his political career, potentially wrecking not just his own country's economy but that of a whole continent

Actually, it could be much more than just Europe. The day after Papandreou announced the referendum, the Dow Jones fell by almost 300 points. Yes, by simply calling for a referendum, Papandreou caused a 300-point drop in the DJ average..

An economic collapse in Europe would almost certainly be disasterous for the US, and quite possibly the world.

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

[Greed and Death]

Actually, it could be much more than just Europe. The day after Papandreou announced the referendum, the Dow Jones fell by almost 300 points. Yes, by simply calling for a referendum, Papandreou caused a 300-point drop in the DJ average..

An economic collapse in Europe would almost certainly be disasterous for the US, and quite possibly the world.

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

Does this mean we Americans can blame this crisis on Europe foolishly buying Greek debt ???

Greece when an entire country is subprime.

[Keronians]

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

Does this mean we Americans can blame this crisis on Europe foolishly buying Greek debt ???

Greece when an entire country is subprime.

Yeah, unfortunately. Though America did spark the whole crisis off with its real estate bubble.

As for Greece, tell me about it. Greece is the one country where I can see NO undervalued bargains. All I see are subprime toxic assets left, right and centre. Even Portugal and Ireland have undervalued bargains.

[Allrule]

Actually, it could be much more than just Europe. The day after Papandreou announced the referendum, the Dow Jones fell by almost 300 points. Yes, by simply calling for a referendum, Papandreou caused a 300-point drop in the DJ average..

An economic collapse in Europe would almost certainly be disasterous for the US, and quite possibly the world.

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

Shit is about to go VERY VERY WRONG. The Greeks do NOT like the bailout plan, from what I can guess, and they'll probably give a big fat NO on the referendum. From there, the European economy will collapse, followed by the American economy, and then all hell will break loose.

Oh, and BY THE WAY, the referendum is planned for 2012? Coincidence? I think NOT!

[Greed and Death]

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

Shit is about to go VERY VERY WRONG. The Greeks do NOT like the bailout plan, from what I can guess, and they'll probably give a big fat NO on the referendum. From there, the European economy will collapse, followed by the American economy, and then all hell will break loose.

Oh, and BY THE WAY, the referendum is planned for 2012? Coincidence? I think NOT!

sounds like time to invest in ammunition futures.

[Keronians]

Not "possibly" the World. It would collapse the world economy. Europe collectively makes up 25% of world GDP.

Even assuming that the non-Eurozone countries in Europe, despite their exposure, would escape unscathed, that's still something like 20% of world GDP.

Shit is about to go VERY VERY WRONG. The Greeks do NOT like the bailout plan, from what I can guess, and they'll probably give a big fat NO on the referendum. From there, the European economy will collapse, followed by the American economy, and then all hell will break loose.

Oh, and BY THE WAY, the referendum is planned for 2012? Coincidence? I think NOT!

Ironically, 60% of Greeks plan to vote "no", but 70% of Greeks want to keep the Euro.

Do they realise that if they vote no, they're getting kicked out of the Euro?

[Keronians]

Shit is about to go VERY VERY WRONG. The Greeks do NOT like the bailout plan, from what I can guess, and they'll probably give a big fat NO on the referendum. From there, the European economy will collapse, followed by the American economy, and then all hell will break loose.

Oh, and BY THE WAY, the referendum is planned for 2012? Coincidence? I think NOT!

sounds like time to invest in ammunition futures.

>Most European countries have a ban on guns

>

[Allrule]

sounds like time to invest in ammunition futures.

>Most European countries have a ban on guns

>

Eh its gonna be de facto anarchy anyway, laws do fuck all in anarchy.

[Greed and Death]

sounds like time to invest in ammunition futures.

>Most European countries have a ban on guns

>

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

[Aeronos]

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

.... *is a teenage daughter*

[Allrule]

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

.... *is a teenage daughter*

[Keronians]

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

.... *is a teenage daughter*

*buys Aeronos*

[Allrule]

The cabinet has backed Papandreou's plan.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 00430.html

[Caninope]

>Most European countries have a ban on guns

>

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

Now, G&D, what did I tell you about human trafficking? I'm pretty sure I told you that drugs are much better.

[New Conglomerate]

The cabinet has backed Papandreou's plan.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 00430.html

For good reason, as a poster on a different comments blog said:

The Greek PM is clever. He is facing demonstrations and riots in the streets. The opposition party is being criticial without presenting an alternative. The referendum will force their hand. While polls show the Greeks don’t like the austerity or the bailout, they continue to give overwhelming support for membership in the EU and the euro.

So the PM is saying, “Man up and make a decision; stop whining.” Vote for the bailout and tough it out. Or vote against it, suffer a hard disorderly default, kiss your banks goodbye, and leave the EU. In poker terms, he is calling a bluff and saying show me your cards.

As for the rest of the EU, the threat of rejection may get the other governments to offer last-minute better terms to bribe the voters into voting yes.

If the PM loses, he resigns, Greece collapses, and he gets to both blame his opposition and dump the whole mess into the laps of the opposition. You think you can do better, show me the money!

[Tahar Joblis]

I'm not entirely sure what Greece's options really are at this point. The choices offered to Greece are default and crash in flames, or gut government services and slump into a long economic slough. There's not much on the table that looks good. (It's been suggested that austerity measures are actually a bad idea.)

It does seem politically keen of the PM, and I really don't see anything wrong with putting it to a vote. Basic democratic principles at work. It's not practical to put everything to referendum, but this is something of a rare scenario.

[New Chalcedon]

Greece will default. It's not a matter of 'if', but 'when'. We should be focussing on protecting the institutions that hold the majority of Greek debt and just let them default.

Why should we protect the banks? Not only did they know that Greece has a significant prospect of default (Greece's sovereign credit rating, so far as I am aware, has been crap for some time - the governmental equivalent of junk bonds), but Goldman Sachs was involved with (fraudulently) aiding Greece in balance-sheet cosmetics to hide their debt figures.

Repeat after me: Greece is NOT too big to fail.

Having said that, Krugman has a good (if pesimistic) analysis of why the Euro can, must and will fail. It boils down to "a lack of an effective lender of last resort, which renders individual governments hideously vulnerable to speculative attacks."

[New Chalcedon]

I'm not entirely sure what Greece's options really are at this point. The choices offered to Greece are default and crash in flames, or gut government services and slump into a long economic slough. There's not much on the table that looks good. (It's been suggested that austerity measures are actually a bad idea.)

It does seem politically keen of the PM, and I really don't see anything wrong with putting it to a vote. Basic democratic principles at work. It's not practical to put everything to referendum, but this is something of a rare scenario.

(1) Austerity in recessions is a bad idea. Unfortunately, with a debt-to-GDP of 120% and without the option of printing its own currency, Greece has little choice (the last is important because many nations will accept a tradeoff between higher inflation and lower unemployment in demand-weak situations).

(2) While it's fine & dandy to put things to a vote, the Greek people are being asked to choose between an austerity program that's (bluntly) brutal or national default. I'm pretty sure - under the circumstances - they'll choose the latter.

[Tahar Joblis]

I'm not entirely sure what Greece's options really are at this point. The choices offered to Greece are default and crash in flames, or gut government services and slump into a long economic slough. There's not much on the table that looks good. (It's been suggested that austerity measures are actually a bad idea.)

It does seem politically keen of the PM, and I really don't see anything wrong with putting it to a vote. Basic democratic principles at work. It's not practical to put everything to referendum, but this is something of a rare scenario.

(1) Austerity in recessions is a bad idea. Unfortunately, with a debt-to-GDP of 120% and without the option of printing its own currency, Greece has little choice (the last is important because many nations will accept a tradeoff between higher inflation and lower unemployment in demand-weak situations).

(2) While it's fine & dandy to put things to a vote, the Greek people are being asked to choose between an austerity program that's (bluntly) brutal or national default. I'm pretty sure - under the circumstances - they'll choose the latter.

And what's wrong with that? It's their choice to make, ultimately, and I'm not even sure it's not in their best interests in some choice of time frame.

Yes, referenda can get you into trouble sometimes, especially with poorly written and poorly understood legislation in low-turnout years or civil rights issues, but I don't feel like this falls under those categories.

[Greed and Death]

Yeah buy them here smuggle them in, Europe will be in such a civil war they will trade their teenaged daughters for weapons to fight the revolution.

.... *is a teenage daughter*

Hey hey, so your dad is looking for some guns
You came to the right place. please fill out his address and put on this school girl outfit and I will proceed to ship him all the fire arms he needs.

[Osterveim]

It seems that the Greeks have the very correct standpoint of sovereignty. But if they can vote on it, maybe they still have that sovereignty anyway.

^This.

[Allrule]

.... *is a teenage daughter*

Hey hey, so your dad is looking for some guns
You came to the right place. please fill out his address and put on this school girl outfit and I will proceed to ship him all the fire arms he needs.

KERONIANS GOT HER FIRST, YOU THIEVING RATBAG!

[Greed and Death]

Hey hey, so your dad is looking for some guns
You came to the right place. please fill out his address and put on this school girl outfit and I will proceed to ship him all the fire arms he needs.

KERONIANS GOT HER FIRST, YOU THIEVING RATBAG!

KERONIANS attempted to buy her.
That is clearly illegle.
I was merely giving her father guns and taking this girl under my "care".