Pregnant mom arrested for forgetting to pay for sandwich

[Unslavery]

DELETE MY SHAME

Well, he can't now that you've quoted it.

I didn't quote what I said! xD

[Dakini]

No, a restaurant is a different set up than a grocery store.

But you agree that it is often the norm to go into a business, eat "their" food, and not pay until the end, right?

At restaurants, yes. At grocery stores, no. These are two very different businesses.

And still, what she did is more like ordering food at a restaurant, eating it and then forgetting to pay.

That's all it is to me, when people eat in the grocery store. If they try to leave without paying, they're stealing, and that's wrong. But if they pay for everything before they leave, there's nothing wrong with it, any more than it is wrong for me to eat a burger and THEN pay for it when I go to the pub.

Except, of course, that the business model for restaurant is very different from the business model for grocery store. Just because they're both selling food doesn't mean that they both have the same standards.

Also, I've never left a restaurant and "forgot" to pay on my way out.

Me neither, but I'm inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt from time to time. It's like the Spiderman Rule: Everybody gets one. If somebody makes a habit of that sort of thing, I've got no problem calling them out, but if somebody makes one minor mistake and is willing to apologize and pay for it, then I don't see the point in treating them like crap over $5 of merchandise. You'll spend more making a stink out of it, and lose more business by being a jerk, than you would by just telling them to watch it in the future and letting them go on their way.

If stores took $5 losses a couple of times a day, they'd totally feel it in their bottom line. If everyone who walked out the door ate a sandwich before hitting the cashier and forgot to pay for it, the store would notice it. Why should this one lady get special treatment because she forgot?

I mean, shoplifting is usually a note on the record and a small fine. It's not a large crime, that's why people don't tend to do serious jail time for it, but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be punished for theft because it was "just $5".

[Unslavery]

Nope, under UK law at least, not sure how it is in the US or elsewhere, it's theft.

Well since it's not going away:
I think it's a flawed judgment.

If your bank makes a mistake and deducts £20 from your account total, and subsequently rectifies the error, you cannot pursue a case of theft, because you have no way of demonstrating that the 'pretend' £20 of which you have been deprived is materially different from the 'pretend' £20 which is repaid. (Ignoring potential damages due to loss of interest etc.)

Now, I still think that it is wrong and illegal to borrow £1050 without permission. But in the case, could the victim even provide proof that the returned money was not identical to the borrowed money? (That is to say: does the case for the prosecution not rely entirely on the testimony of the accused?)

If I take a pound coin from my pocket, and concurrently swap it with a pound coin in the till, that is supposedly theft. But I cannot see that my employer has been in any way harmed.

[The Rich Port]

Nope, under UK law at least, not sure how it is in the US or elsewhere, it's theft.

Well since it's not going away:
I think it's a flawed judgment.

If your bank makes a mistake and deducts £20 from your account total, and subsequently rectifies the error, you cannot pursue a case of theft, because you have no way of demonstrating that the 'pretend' £20 of which you have been deprived is materially different from the 'pretend' £20 which is repaid.

Now, I still think that it is wrong and illegal to borrow £1050 without permission. But in the case, could the victim even provide proof that the returned money was not identical to the borrowed money?

If I take a pound coin from my pocket, and concurrently swap it with a pound coin in the till, that is supposedly theft. But I cannot see that my employer has been in any way harmed.

I think the law is antiquated.

Used to be, coins were graded by the metals they contained, and these metals varied from coin to coin. No coin was the same, so one coin worth the same as another wasn't the same coin materially. Therefore, not an identical replacement. Therefore, theft.

[Arkinesia]

Not convinced by this. It's still legal tender. Unless the employer can demonstrate that the stolen note differed materially from the replacement, I can't see the case going anyway. If the stolen note was noteworthy (of sentimental value or historical interest), then maybe.

Nope, under UK law at least, not sure how it is in the US or elsewhere, it's theft.

In the US shoplifting is generally supposed to be treated with a concerted effort to allow the shoplifter to pay before pressing charges.

[Dakini]

Nope, under UK law at least, not sure how it is in the US or elsewhere, it's theft.

In the US shoplifting is generally supposed to be treated with a concerted effort to allow the shoplifter to pay before pressing charges.

Source?

In general, if someone leaves the store with unpaid merchandise, they are arrested for shoplifting because that's what they just did.

[-St George]

Nope, under UK law at least, not sure how it is in the US or elsewhere, it's theft.

In the US shoplifting is generally supposed to be treated with a concerted effort to allow the shoplifter to pay before pressing charges.

Shoplifting isn't what I was talking about >.>

[Tekania]

I find it stupid how such a petty crime as forgetting to pay for a sandwich can lead into such a great ordeal. Being handcuffed and separated from her child is stupid. Yet in reality she not guilty of theft:

'A person is guilty of theft, if he (or she) dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.'

Guilt / innocence isn't a factor... probable cause, however is. In cases like this where they have intercepted someone outside the store, they already have documented the acts of the person taking and pocketing an item and then leaving the store with it.

[Xsyne]

What if your business is selling newspapers on the high street? If people can just take what they want and assume immunity from prosecution, then you won't survive very long.

So, the question is not whether it was taken without paying.

It's whether someone is willing to pay the store.

This woman is.

A shoplifter would not be.

Why the store doesn't just take the $5 is what baffles me.

Yes. a shoplifter who is caught would totally refuse to pay and get the police involved and be forced to pay a fine much larger than the cost of item stolen when they instead could offer to pay for the item and not have to deal with the police or pay a fine or have every employee at the store told "watch out for this person", making it vastly more difficult to shoplift in the future. This is a perfectly rational decision.

[Dakini]

What if your business is selling newspapers on the high street? If people can just take what they want and assume immunity from prosecution, then you won't survive very long.

So, the question is not whether it was taken without paying.

It's whether someone is willing to pay the store.

This woman is.

A shoplifter would not be.

Why the store doesn't just take the $5 is what baffles me.

A shoplifter would have to be really stupid to not offer to pay for something they shoplifted when caught.

[The Black Forrest]

Tad over-reactive.

What shoplifter spends $50 to steal $5?

Most stores tend to understand if you try to compensate.

When my girl was tiny; she loved peaches and invariable she would manage to get her hands on one and start eating.

I would grab one of comparable size if not bigger and put it in a separate bag. When it came time to leave, just explained it and they rang up two.

Mistakes happen.

Hmmm. I wonder if I can detain store people for arrest when the registers "forget" sales prices......

[Dakini]

Hmmm. I wonder if I can detain store people for arrest when the registers "forget" sales prices......

No, but you can tell them the shelf price and they'll correct it. Some stores even have policies where if a sale has expired, but the sale sticker is still on the shelf, they'll give you one of the sale items for a penny in addition to selling the others at the (expired) sale price.

[Shihon]

The was well within their rights to hold the couple and call police, however it was not good business. Had the store allowed the couple to simply pay and walk away there's a chance that they would've told their friends how customer friendly it was. In this case, it's almost guaranteed that this couple will tell everyone they know how ridiculous the store is, so the original loss of $5 which could've been easily recovered is now supplemented by a whole host of people who will simply boycott the store because of its strict policies. So regardless of the validity of their actions, the store did more harm than good in regards to its public image, especially when you consider that this story has shown up on the news, and was probably featured in local news.

[Tekania]

So, the question is not whether it was taken without paying.

It's whether someone is willing to pay the store.

This woman is.

A shoplifter would not be.

Why the store doesn't just take the $5 is what baffles me.

Yes. a shoplifter who is caught would totally refuse to pay and get the police involved and be forced to pay a fine much larger than the cost of item stolen when they instead could offer to pay for the item and not have to deal with the police or pay a fine or have every employee at the store told "watch out for this person", making it vastly more difficult to shoplift in the future. This is a perfectly rational decision.

For all we know that store has a large shoplifting issue and takes a hardline due to it, prosecuting each occurrence.

[The Black Forrest]

Hmmm. I wonder if I can detain store people for arrest when the registers "forget" sales prices......

No, but you can tell them the shelf price and they'll correct it. Some stores even have policies where if a sale has expired, but the sale sticker is still on the shelf, they'll give you one of the sale items for a penny in addition to selling the others at the (expired) sale price.

Some are good at extending expired especially if it's only a day or two and they recognize you.

My comment was my thinking of a story awhile ago where the larger chains where caught making "mistakes" that generated thousands of dollars. The reported commented there were never any mistakes that benefited the consumer and he advised always check your receipt as you can't take it for granted they will have it correct.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting they are all crooks.......

[Dakini]

No, but you can tell them the shelf price and they'll correct it. Some stores even have policies where if a sale has expired, but the sale sticker is still on the shelf, they'll give you one of the sale items for a penny in addition to selling the others at the (expired) sale price.

Some are good at extending expired especially if it's only a day or two and they recognize you.

My comment was my thinking of a story awhile ago where the larger chains where caught making "mistakes" that generated thousands of dollars. The reported commented there were never any mistakes that benefited the consumer and he advised always check your receipt as you can't take it for granted they will have it correct.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting they are all crooks.......

Source?

Stores around here are generally quite good about getting the prices right or correcting them when they're not. I've never had a problem (or if I have, it's easy enough to say "well, I don't need this too badly" and they can put it back on the shelf).

I've noticed that sometimes I'll be charged for the incorrect fruit, but this mistake is usually small and happens as often where my lower priced fruit was mistaken for something more expensive as the other way around. I also rarely notice until I've got home because the difference is so small.

[The Black Forrest]

Some are good at extending expired especially if it's only a day or two and they recognize you.

My comment was my thinking of a story awhile ago where the larger chains where caught making "mistakes" that generated thousands of dollars. The reported commented there were never any mistakes that benefited the consumer and he advised always check your receipt as you can't take it for granted they will have it correct.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting they are all crooks.......

Source?

It was a TV thing from awhile ago. It's wasn't an outright fraud type of thing. Just small change here and there and the amounts were not blaring obvious. Some would question the effort to regain it. The issues was when the consumer numbered in the 1000s and the change added up quick.

Mind you this was awhile ago so I can't give you a direct source. In fact my scraggly memory recalled a subsequent story where the chain said it was register programming and they would fix that.

So take it for what you will.

Stores around here are generally quite good about getting the prices right or correcting them when they're not. I've never had a problem (or if I have, it's easy enough to say "well, I don't need this too badly" and they can put it back on the shelf).

They are pretty much around here too. I had one who tagged it for a price which was good and then tried to retag it with the "correct" price. They tried to argue but they tend to retreat quick is your volume steadily increases in a busy setting.

[Azakhia]

Nein. AFAIK, citizen's arrest laws are valid for all felonies (except in NC), and some states have provisions for misdemeanors too. And in walking out the store, she committed the crime.

Dude, pass me what you got going over there. No state allows a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor that isn't disturbing the peace.

Honestly, it's an intuitive thing. Citizens can't go jumping on every "criminal" that commits one of (literally) dozens of misdemeanors.

"Look, that guy looks to be a bit drunk! Tackle him!" I mean, what could go wrong; right?

Then think again, because Caninope is correct.

When you hide or conceal the merchandise, that is considered shoplifting. When you walk out of the store with the concealed or unpaid (for those that grab and run), then it becomes larceny of property.

And what does this have to do with the post?

North Carolina General Statutes § 15A-404 Detention of offenders by private persons

Legal Research Home > North Carolina Lawyer

(a) No Arrest; Detention Permitted. No private person may arrest another person except as provided in G.S. 15A‑405. A private person may detain another person as provided in this section.

(b) When Detention Permitted. A private person may detain another person when he has probable cause to believe that the person detained has committed in his presence:

(1) A felony,

(2) A breach of the peace,

(3) A crime involving physical injury to another person, or

(4) A crime involving theft or destruction of property.

(c) Manner of Detention. The detention must be in a reasonable manner considering the offense involved and the circumstances of the detention.

(d) Period of Detention. The detention may be no longer than the time required for the earliest of the following:

(1) The determination that no offense has been committed.

(2) Surrender of the person detained to a law‑enforcement officer as provided in subsection (e).

(e) Surrender to Officer. A private person who detains another must immediately notify a law‑enforcement officer and must, unless he releases the person earlier as required by subsection (d), surrender the person detained to the law‑enforcement officer. (1973, c. 1286, s. 1.)

Sections: Previous 15A-302 15A-303 15A-304 15A-305 15A-401 15A-402 15A-403 15A-404 15A-405 15A-406 15A-501 15A-502 15A-503 15A-504 15A-505 Next

Last modified: March 28, 2010

Now ask yourself. If I come to visit you at your home, and I try to take your TV or computer; would you try to stop me from stealing your property from your home?

[Bottle]

But you agree that it is often the norm to go into a business, eat "their" food, and not pay until the end, right?

At restaurants, yes. At grocery stores, no. These are two very different businesses.

Well, not where I grew up. Stores that sell food aren't considered so completely different from restaurants I guess.

Hopefully now you can understand why teaching your children to pay before leaving won't cause them to become shoplifters or career criminals...same reason you didn't become those things after learning to go to restaurants.

If stores took $5 losses a couple of times a day, they'd totally feel it in their bottom line. If everyone who walked out the door ate a sandwich before hitting the cashier and forgot to pay for it, the store would notice it. Why should this one lady get special treatment because she forgot?

I mean, shoplifting is usually a note on the record and a small fine. It's not a large crime, that's why people don't tend to do serious jail time for it, but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be punished for theft because it was "just $5".

You're still acting as though I'm saying the store should have let her go without paying. What I've actually been saying is that a store should probably not waste time and money prosecuting somebody who immediately apologizes for a mistake and offers to pay. Note: there is no "loss" to the store in that situation, while there IS a loss to the store if they choose to spend time and money on the prosecuting of the customer.

[Dakini]

At restaurants, yes. At grocery stores, no. These are two very different businesses.

Well, not where I grew up. Stores that sell food aren't considered so completely different from restaurants I guess.

Hopefully now you can understand why teaching your children to pay before leaving won't cause them to become shoplifters or career criminals...same reason you didn't become those things after learning to go to restaurants.

I didn't say that teaching your children that it's fine to do the illegal thing of eating food you haven't paid for in a grocery store will lead them to a life of other crimes. Please, show me where I said that instead of putting words in my mouth, thanks.

It is still illegal and it is still shoplifting here. And here, we have a culture that encourages obeying laws... silly thing that. Silly thing again that restaurants are different from grocery stores. Who would have thought that.

Additionally, if I went to Subway, a "restaurant" where you have to pay before eating and ate my sandwich without paying for it, I would be stealing the sandwich. Even if I intended to pay for it once I stopped being so gosh-darned famished, but especially if I ate it, didn't pay and walked out of the store.

If stores took $5 losses a couple of times a day, they'd totally feel it in their bottom line. If everyone who walked out the door ate a sandwich before hitting the cashier and forgot to pay for it, the store would notice it. Why should this one lady get special treatment because she forgot?

I mean, shoplifting is usually a note on the record and a small fine. It's not a large crime, that's why people don't tend to do serious jail time for it, but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be punished for theft because it was "just $5".

You're still acting as though I'm saying the store should have let her go without paying. What I've actually been saying is that a store should probably not waste time and money prosecuting somebody who immediately apologizes for a mistake and offers to pay. Note: there is no "loss" to the store in that situation, while there IS a loss to the store if they choose to spend time and money on the prosecuting of the customer.

No, you're saying that people should not be punished for shoplifting so long as they offer to pay. Anyone can steal from a store and then claim that they forgot and offer to pay, even if they intended to steal from the store. I mean, if there's no punishment for getting caught as long as you can pay for the item you purchased, why wouldn't more people shoplift? You can always return the item later if you really didn't want it and were just stealing for the hell of it.

[Four-sided Triangles]

Glad to see most people here haven't managed to mature beyond stage 4 moral development.

[The Black Forrest]

Glad to see most people here haven't managed to mature beyond stage 4 moral development.

Morality is subjective.

[Four-sided Triangles]

Morality is subjective.

Do you even know what I'm talking about? Do you even know what it is I'm referencing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_K ... evelopment

Have fun.

[Caninope]

Nein. AFAIK, citizen's arrest laws are valid for all felonies (except in NC), and some states have provisions for misdemeanors too. And in walking out the store, she committed the crime.

Dude, pass me what you got going over there. No state allows a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor that isn't disturbing the peace.

Honestly, it's an intuitive thing. Citizens can't go jumping on every "criminal" that commits one of (literally) dozens of misdemeanors.

"Look, that guy looks to be a bit drunk! Tackle him!" I mean, what could go wrong; right?

"Breach of the Peace" is a rather broad and nebulous term. Drunk and disorderly conduct actually falls under that too.

[Bales Rant]

Glad to see most people here haven't managed to mature beyond stage 4 moral development.

Morality is subjective.

No, it's immoral!