Who Do You Think Is the Greatest Military Mind of All Time?

[Conserative Morality]

Eh, the European Aristocracy claimed they were hand picked by God to lead the rest. Romulus & Remus have nothing but mythical accounts to go by, the same as Yahweh, so it's not much of a source.

Someone apparently doesn't know much about the medieval system of Feudalism. Divine Right didn't come about until, God, what, the sixteenth century?

In Greece the elite wanted freedom, but didn't want to have to answer to "lesser" people, so they decided to exclude them from the process until the 6th century BC.

Guess when Athens became a Democracy.

[Die Kain Imperium]

NOT General Custard.

[LoL island]

Pol Pot wins for me on terms of fear

either him or good ol vlad

[Phsycotik Killers]

Alexander the great no doubt. Reasons why he conquered Greece,then Persia.I like to think that the only one who had a better strategic mind was Sun Tsu.

[Nazis in Space]

Alexander the great no doubt. Reasons why he conquered Greece,then Persia.I like to think that the only one who had a better strategic mind was Sun Tsu.

Well... Sun Tsu is a fictional character to which assorted simplicistic and frequently suicidal sayings are attributed, while Alexander used the accomplishments of his father to conquer a disunited Empire already in the process of disintegration and led by a hilariously incompetent emperor, managed to piss off his soldiers to the point where they went on strike, and then marched his entire army through a desert where the majority of them perished.

I'll admit, the two go pretty well together.

[Imperaturi]

Frederick the Great at Rossbach and Leuthen.

[Kirrig]

William the Conqueror, and the Normans as a whole.

[Caninope]

Not quite. I have both a separate word for the color red and the word color. That doesn't mean red isn't a color. Helots were a class of slaves.

Exactly. This means, since Red isn't your word for Color, that there are colors aside from Red. Which is what I'm saying. Using Helot populations as the total amount of slaves is like saying the amount of red pixels is the amount of pixels.

But there are slaves other than Helots. But, just like red is a color, Helots are slaves.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Exactly. This means, since Red isn't your word for Color, that there are colors aside from Red. Which is what I'm saying. Using Helot populations as the total amount of slaves is like saying the amount of red pixels is the amount of pixels.

But there are slaves other than Helots. But, just like red is a color, Helots are slaves.

My point is, whether or not Helots are slaves, there are slaves other than Helots. So, using Helot populations as evidence of total slave populations isn't accurate.

[Caninope]

But there are slaves other than Helots. But, just like red is a color, Helots are slaves.

My point is, whether or not Helots are slaves, there are slaves other than Helots. So, using Helot populations as evidence of total slave populations isn't accurate.

No, you're entirely right. It probably underestimates the number of Spartan slaves, which is what this arose over.

[Raw Nation]

Jean-Luc Picard.

NUFF SAID

[New England and The Maritimes]

My point is, whether or not Helots are slaves, there are slaves other than Helots. So, using Helot populations as evidence of total slave populations isn't accurate.

No, you're entirely right. It probably underestimates the number of Spartan slaves, which is what this arose over.

Mostly we were talking about Athens, as I recall. Farn mentioned there were about 3 to 4 slaves per citizen household on average. That'd be, then, 75-80% of the population being disenfranchised. Not what I'd call representational.

[Spendor]

Alexander the Great, of course.

Except Alex & his pop, Phil, were scared $#%&less of the Spartans:

Philip's message to the Spartans: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Sparta's response: "If."

Respecting Spartan eloquence, both Philip & Alexander stayed out of Sparta.

[The Corparation]

Jean-Luc Picard.

NUFF SAID

He's more of a diplomat then a fighter. Now Kirk, Kirk was a good military commander.

[Caninope]

No, you're entirely right. It probably underestimates the number of Spartan slaves, which is what this arose over.

Mostly we were talking about Athens, as I recall. Farn mentioned there were about 3 to 4 slaves per citizen household on average. That'd be, then, 75-80% of the population being disenfranchised. Not what I'd call representational.

3-4 slaves per citizen household is less than 75-80%. Assuming a low household size of 4 people, that's only 50% of the population in slavery. This indicates the slave population was closer to 1/3rd of the population. But a large part of the population was indeed disenfranchised, as women and children couldn't vote.

[Caninope]

Alexander the Great, of course.

Except Alex & his pop, Phil, were scared $#%&less of the Spartans:

Philip's message to the Spartans: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Sparta's response: "If."

Respecting Spartan eloquence, both Philip & Alexander stayed out of Sparta.

They ruled Sparta indirectly after they defeated Sparta in battle. Both of them.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Except Alex & his pop, Phil, were scared $#%&less of the Spartans:

Philip's message to the Spartans: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Sparta's response: "If."

Respecting Spartan eloquence, both Philip & Alexander stayed out of Sparta.

They ruled Sparta indirectly after they defeated Sparta in battle. Both of them.

The Spartans became complacent after their victory over Athens. All they were doing was coasting on their 700 year old reputation by the advent of Phillip. Reminds me of Prussia on the advent of Napoleon.

[Demonatrix]

Mostly we were talking about Athens, as I recall. Farn mentioned there were about 3 to 4 slaves per citizen household on average. That'd be, then, 75-80% of the population being disenfranchised. Not what I'd call representational.

3-4 slaves per citizen household is less than 75-80%. Assuming a low household size of 4 people, that's only 50% of the population in slavery. This indicates the slave population was closer to 1/3rd of the population. But a large part of the population was indeed disenfranchised, as women and children couldn't vote.

To vote in the assembly, IIRC, you had to be male, own property, and be "Athenian" which didn't just mean being born there, had to have two athenian parents, married, to each other.

It's worth noting however that 'slavery' in athens, and greece as a whole wasn't what most modern people think of when they hear the term. There were laws about how you treated slaves...

In Athens you even hear of skilled craftsmen, who were slaves being set up in shops by their owners, the 'slave' lived in the rooms above the shop with his family, ran the place like it was his own business, and paid a share of the profits to his owner.

The Spartans armed their Helots, for use as light troops.

[Caninope]

They ruled Sparta indirectly after they defeated Sparta in battle. Both of them.

The Spartans became complacent after their victory over Athens. All they were doing was coasting on their 700 year old reputation by the advent of Phillip. Reminds me of Prussia on the advent of Napoleon.

Complacent? No. They quickly lost their grip on things. They were too small and overextended themselves. Then the Battle of Leuctra really hurt them.

[Galloism]

I am.

Naturally.

[New England and The Maritimes]

3-4 slaves per citizen household is less than 75-80%. Assuming a low household size of 4 people, that's only 50% of the population in slavery. This indicates the slave population was closer to 1/3rd of the population. But a large part of the population was indeed disenfranchised, as women and children couldn't vote.

To vote in the assembly, IIRC, you had to be male, own property, and be "Athenian" which didn't just mean being born there, had to have two athenian parents, married, to each other.

It's worth noting however that 'slavery' in athens, and greece as a whole wasn't what most modern people think of when they hear the term. There were laws about how you treated slaves...

In Athens you even hear of skilled craftsmen, who were slaves being set up in shops by their owners, the 'slave' lived in the rooms above the shop with his family, ran the place like it was his own business, and paid a share of the profits to his owner.

The Spartans armed their Helots, for use as light troops.

They also raped and murdered their Helots at whim, used them as serfs to grow their grain, and in general treated them so badly that a sustained Helot revolt could last generations.

[Demonatrix]

Except Alex & his pop, Phil, were scared $#%&less of the Spartans:

Philip's message to the Spartans: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Sparta's response: "If."

Respecting Spartan eloquence, both Philip & Alexander stayed out of Sparta.

They ruled Sparta indirectly after they defeated Sparta in battle. Both of them.

Besides which, spartan power had declined sharply after the Thebans kicked the crap out of them at Leuctra, with the Sacred Band... 371bce? (must learn to auto-google rather than try and remember stuff)

[Inky Noodles]

The men behind Gallipoli

[Flat Beats]

George S. Patton, perhaps?
Sun Tsu, aye?
Alexander, ja?
Ghengis Khan, and on an interesting note he let those he overtook retain their cultural identity, yeah?
All those stereotypical Great General guys, and Kubilai Khan mayhaps?

[New England and The Maritimes]

The Spartans became complacent after their victory over Athens. All they were doing was coasting on their 700 year old reputation by the advent of Phillip. Reminds me of Prussia on the advent of Napoleon.

Complacent? No. They quickly lost their grip on things. They were too small and overextended themselves. Then the Battle of Leuctra really hurt them.

They dominated the Peloponnesus, which was the heartland of Greece. They didn't adapt to new tactics and their men obviously weren't disciplined enough to achieve victory at Leuctra.