Engaging in separatist feminism

[Demonatrix]

I'm afraid the argument goes both ways, really.

Which really just shows how flawed the concept is.

It shows what happens when people start trying to apply the arbitary rules of 'logic' with it's carefully crafted premise list, and orderly conclusion, to something as uncarefully crafted as real life.

Logic is no substitute for actual thought.

[The Deleted Chris]

I'm afraid the argument goes both ways, really.

Which really just shows how flawed the concept is.

It shows what happens when people start trying to apply the arbitary rules of 'logic' with it's carefully crafted premise list, and orderly conclusion, to something as uncarefully crafted as real life.

Logic is no substitute for actual thought.

Quite true.

[Femnipotent]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

[Four-sided Triangles]

It shows what happens when people start trying to apply the arbitary rules of 'logic' with it's carefully crafted premise list, and orderly conclusion, to something as uncarefully crafted as real life.

Logic is no substitute for actual thought.

Nonsense. You're just equivocating on what logic actually is. You must be more rigorous.

[Skibereen]

I'm afraid the argument goes both ways, really.

Which really just shows how flawed the concept is.

It shows what happens when people start trying to apply the arbitary rules of 'logic' with it's carefully crafted premise list, and orderly conclusion, to something as uncarefully crafted as real life.

Logic is no substitute for actual thought.

Rock and roll.
Youre my new favorite poster on the internet.

[Trotskylvania]

did you read what i wrote.

she will still relate to them as men using her own societal programming. she is trying to get away from that to see what she is/how she would behave in a situation where there are no men to worry about in any way including her own ways.

its 6 months, not forever. she isnt going to set up a quebecois matriarchy.

So before I get sidetracked trying to catch up, I went shopping and attempted to use that 'filter' that I imagine Orthodox Jewish men using, you know except I was trying to use it on me.

Okay that was extremely difficult. First of all I found myself being hyper aware of every man that I walked by. I realised just how many I was surrounded by. That was awkward, so I focused first on the ground, then when that didn't work I looked to the side when I passed, and when that didn't work I tried to shift my attention to the women around me instead. At which point I became hyper aware of the way those women were dressed.

Our market is very small and cramped so avoiding men was not really an option. Going to have to figure out how to filter better. It was nerve-wracking.

How is ignoring men and "male influence" going to advance a feminist struggle?

Furthermore, what does this even mean in the first place? What kind of patriarchy does Joe Pedestrian impose on you merely being conscious of him? And where do you draw the line? You're just trying to separate your life away from direct contact with men, whether personally or through media. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of the daily items you sue were designed and manufactured by teams that included men. Presumably, their "male influence" would extend to that as well.

[The Emerald Legion]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

Why not do both?

[New Sapienta]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

Well then why should I worry about what happens to women because of this "patriarchy"

[The Deleted Chris]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

The Patriarchy comprising who precisely?

[Jakaragua]

The Patriarchy comprising who precisely?

Males and with a minority of consenting females, I 'supose.

[Trotskylvania]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

Quick! Banish the male puppy out of the separatist commune!

[Norstal]

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

Yeah, it kinda is your duty do both if you truly believe such problems exist...

[Trotskylvania]

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

Yeah, it kinda is your duty do both if you truly believe such problems exist...

This debate is convoluted enough without injecting duty ethics into it.

[The Deleted Chris]

The Patriarchy comprising who precisely?

Males and with a minority of consenting females, I 'supose.

Curious. Nobody has ever sent me a membership card, invite to the AGM, or a striped tie with a nifty motif of downtrodden women, and I shudder to think how behind I am on my subs to the "Nasty Phallocrats Club".

[Norstal]

Yeah, it kinda is your duty do both if you truly believe such problems exist...

This debate is convoluted enough without injecting duty ethics into it.

Isn't she for equality? She would be compelled not to see men as men or women as women, but to see them both as people.

[Conserative Morality]

This debate is convoluted enough without injecting duty ethics into it.

But they belong, so if convoluted is the path we must go down, so be it! It is our duty as Generalites!

[Galloism]

I've been lerking through this thread and wish to ask something.

You say society constantly stereotypes women into gender roles they must preform, and that through media, and personal experience this is proven?

Fair enough, in fact, I agree with you.

But would you agree that society also stereotypes men? I mean, just look at those beer commercials, and the need for men to be "manly" and soak up the pain. Not to mention I have seen several media samples and been told by several women, that men are dumb.
Would you say this is fair?

Of course the patriarchy forces men into gender roles as well, but guess what. It's not my job to fix that for men before I am allowed to deal with what the patriarchy does to me.

The logical outgrowth of this being that it's not the concern of men that women are forced into gender roles until such time as they correct the gender roles they're forced into.

I don't think any feminist groups should want that, given the current tilt of the power structure in the world. If it's all right with you, I'll care about both, thanks.

[Gauthier]

And so this misandric Men Are Pigs rant goes on for 37 pages...

[Trotskylvania]

This debate is convoluted enough without injecting duty ethics into it.

But they belong, so if convoluted is the path we must go down, so be it! It is our duty as Generalites!

Once more into the breach, I guess.

[Jakaragua]

Femnipotent -

Have you ever taken a look at the socialist or Marxist schools of feminism? As I've read through this thread it seems you've had some trouble during your time in the movement. Personally, I think we should identify the class basis of patriarchy, and seek to combat them both simultaneously, because - to me - patriarchy cannot be truly overthrown while capitalism remains, and capitalism will never be properly dissolved until its ideological dregs (Wheather they be racism, sexism, heteronormativity etc. are obliterated.

I can understand you not wanting men joining yourself in activism, but should you deny them a role to play in emancipating both men and women from patriarchal oppression?

I may look a narrow-minded male foaming at the mouth, but I hope I'm not on your ignore list...

[Galloism]

And so this misandric Men Are Pigs rant goes on for 32 pages...

I think I'm ignored at this point...

Probably for having a thought on the subject that didn't toe the line.

[Demonatrix]

The Patriarchy comprising who precisely?

Males and with a minority of consenting females, I 'supose.

I posted a list based on the OP's posts, and her stated targets for 'ignore' on page 35 of this thread, if you are unsure of who her 'patriachy' is comprised of...

[The Emerald Legion]

And so this misandric Men Are Pigs rant goes on for 32 pages...

I think I'm ignored at this point...

Probably for having a thought on the subject that didn't toe the line.

Wait a minute... I just noticed... Does your darth vader have a curly mustache?!

[Galloism]

I think I'm ignored at this point...

Probably for having a thought on the subject that didn't toe the line.

Wait a minute... I just noticed... Does your darth vader have a curly mustache?!

Yes. Mwahaha.

[Dilange]

Feminism = Female dominance.

Sorry but I like men and women having equality (I fight for it), but when someone mentions feminism it makes me cringe. Feminism has changed over the past few years from equality to WOMEN RUN EVERYONE.