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Christianity, not Paulinism

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Bluth Corporation
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Christianity, not Paulinism

Postby Bluth Corporation » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:18 pm

Because it often tends to turn into a threadjack, several have requested that I start a thread explaining what I mean by Christianity, so that the matter can be discussed without distracting from the main substance of the thread.

Essentially, my belief is that Paul and his followers corrupted the message of the Christ (manifested, but only imperfectly, in the person of Jesus). For whatever reason (Tolstoy offers a plausible and sympathetic explanation in The Gospel in Brief), they chose to emphasize the constructed myth of the divinity of Jesus's person over the truth of the divinity (in a non-theistic sense, such as we might say "this chocolate is divine!" though obviously with much more import) of the Christ's teachings, as transmitted (sometimes with errors) through the life and person of Jesus.

So the Christ is merely an abstraction, an ideal human being that serves as an example for all of us in living our own lives. Jesus came very close to this ideal--though not perfectly, as we shall see--and is the originator of the particular tradition (however corrupted it may have been by the Paulinists) in which I learned the teachings that will help me reach this ideal. Other traditions exist and are of course equally legitimate.

Now, the Christ is the example we should follow because it is the means by which we will be saved from destroying ourselves. The Christ shows us how to build a better world and live among one another peacefully and happily. Thus, any beliefs which conflict with this goal are literally incompatible with Christianity. Since there is in fact no god, supplication to a deity can do nothing towards building a better world--and it is a distraction from work that will actually have an effect. Thus, belief in a god is incompatible with being Christ-like; so atheism is not a part of Christianity. Of course, individual Christians may still fall short in this are as they do (myself included) in other areas. But ultimately, atheism is something a Christian should strive to embrace just like he should strive (whether or not he necessarily actually succeeds) to embrace the other attributes of Christness.

Now, it's pretty clear that Jesus was a theist. This is but one example of what I mean when I say that Jesus was only an imperfect manifestation of the Christ. He had his flaws, as do the rest of us. Jesus's imperfection indeed is one of the thing that makes him such a compelling teacher. Even if his imperfections aren't necessarily the same as my imperfections, I can certainly relate to the basic fact of being imperfect.

The Epistles are not part of Christianity because they are written under the presumption that the divinity is found in the person rather than in the teaching. Similarly, the Old Testament is not relevant to Christianity because it is simply the national mythology of the Hebrew people. It provides cultural context for understanding Jesus's specific actions, but it has no universal significance in and of itself. Finding Christianity requires focusing solely on the Gospels, edited to (a) remove the parts that are clearly physically impossible (e.g. the miracles) and (b) removing the parts where Jesus was not being the Christ.

I'm glad to answer whatever questions you may have. You might even ask a question that forces me to reconsider some things (others have in the past), or even everything.
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Lessnt
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Postby Lessnt » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:23 pm

Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:24 pm

That is genuinely interesting.

However, how do you know when Jesus was being "Christlike".
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:25 pm

Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

Not the Congressman from the Texas 14th.
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Lessnt
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Postby Lessnt » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:26 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

Not the Congressman from the Texas 14th.

That does not answer my question.

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Postby Dakini » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:26 pm

So basically, you're making a thread on the basis of "No true Scotsman"?

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Postby Weed » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:29 pm

Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

One of Jesus' crew. Went by the street name Paul the Apostle, or the Apostle Paul, but his real name was Saul of Tarsus. Some would say and Saint Paul.

EDIT: @OP: I regard the bible as fiction, and would no sooner model my life after Jesus than King Arthur. Both reported as pretty good guys. Just probably didn't do any of the good deeds they are credited for.

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Last edited by Weed on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aesthetica
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Postby Aesthetica » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:31 pm

More importantly what 'teachings' do you have left once you remove the Theist specific stuff, is there anything left that any rational Atheist would want to follow, hate gays, sell your cloak and buy a sword, Judea for the Judeans, Romans go home, etc...

Judaism Lite without the God? Seems a little pointless to be brutally honest.
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:31 pm

Lessnt wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Not the Congressman from the Texas 14th.

That does not answer my question.

Then your question was imprecise.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Aesthetica
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Postby Aesthetica » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:34 pm

Weed wrote:
Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

One of Jesus' crew. Went by the street name Paul the Apostle, or the Apostle Paul, but his real name was Saul of Tarsus. Some would say and Saint Paul.


No, Saul of Tarsus, a jew from Turkey, probably a judean Peoples Front activist, anti Roman agitator, inventor of Christianity version 3.0, the version without the dietary laws and genital mutilation of male babies, designed for the graeco-roman export market...

Nothing to do with Jesus (assuming such a person existed at all) in any way...
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Bluth Corporation
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Postby Bluth Corporation » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:35 pm

Aesthetica wrote:More importantly what 'teachings' do you have left once you remove the Theist specific stuff, is there anything left that any rational Atheist would want to follow, hate gays, sell your cloak and buy a sword, Judea for the Judeans, Romans go home, etc...

How does any of that remain, though? After all, as I said:
the Old Testament is not relevant to Christianity because it is simply the national mythology of the Hebrew people. It provides cultural context for understanding Jesus's specific actions, but it has no universal significance in and of itself.


Furthermore, not everything in what's left in the Gospels is necessarily something that's actually being promoted. Sometimes things are mentioned to condemn them, other times they're mentioned simply to set the scene.

EDIT: Also, it bears mentioning that Life of Brian is not a Bible lesson.
Last edited by Bluth Corporation on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:36 pm

Aesthetica wrote:More importantly what 'teachings' do you have left once you remove the Theist specific stuff, is there anything left that any rational Atheist would want to follow, hate gays


Actually, Jesus never mentioned that.
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Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Aesthetica
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Postby Aesthetica » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:43 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:
Aesthetica wrote:More importantly what 'teachings' do you have left once you remove the Theist specific stuff, is there anything left that any rational Atheist would want to follow, hate gays, sell your cloak and buy a sword, Judea for the Judeans, Romans go home, etc...

How does any of that remain, though? After all, as I said:
the Old Testament is not relevant to Christianity because it is simply the national mythology of the Hebrew people. It provides cultural context for understanding Jesus's specific actions, but it has no universal significance in and of itself.


Furthermore, not everything in what's left in the Gospels is necessarily something that's actually being promoted. Sometimes things are mentioned to condemn them, other times they're mentioned simply to set the scene.

EDIT: Also, it bears mentioning that Life of Brian is not a Bible lesson.


It's also worth mentioning that since we dont know the name of the terrorist organisation in question, a fake name is as good as any...

Again, once you remove the OT, and any favorable or supportive references to it's teachings, and discard everything after 33ad and the cruci-fiction, what actual teachings of the "non-theistic Christ" do you have left.

If you specified what your "christianity" teaches, then we would have a starting point for a debate, otherwise this is just the Huge Confusion of the Bluth Corporation...
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Postby Beldonia » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:46 pm

Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

St. Paul. You know, of Tarsus.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:48 pm

Dakini wrote:So basically, you're making a thread on the basis of "No true Scotsman"?

It's a natural extension of his posting habits concerning Christianity.
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Postby Aesthetica » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:53 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Aesthetica wrote:More importantly what 'teachings' do you have left once you remove the Theist specific stuff, is there anything left that any rational Atheist would want to follow, hate gays


Actually, Jesus never mentioned that.


Matthew:
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus says Ot laws including the anti-gay, the dietary restrictions etc, are part of his message...

Unless of course Bluth says this was one of Jesus' non-christ moments... :rofl:
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Postby New New York » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:54 pm

So you believe Jesus was a liar, or that the Gospel writers merely projected their own beliefs onto him?

(Personally, I think your position doesn't have a leg to stand on, but I'll be back after I get a chance to consider more fully what you are saying.)
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Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:54 pm

Can you define what you mean by "christ", since the literal meaning of "annointed" or "messias" can be used by anyone who has once used deoderant ?
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Lessnt
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Postby Lessnt » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:55 pm

Beldonia wrote:
Lessnt wrote:Who is Paul?
I know a Paul.
But is it the same Paul?

St. Paul. You know, of Tarsus.

I do not know this paul no.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:55 pm

Lessnt wrote:
Beldonia wrote:St. Paul. You know, of Tarsus.

I do not know this paul no.

You never heard of Saint Paul? Seriously, and I don't mean the city.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Postby Christian Democrats » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:59 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:Since there is in fact no god, supplication to a deity can do nothing towards building a better world--and it is a distraction from work that will actually have an effect. Thus, belief in a god is incompatible with being Christ-like; so atheism is not a part of Christianity. Of course, individual Christians may still fall short in this are as they do (myself included) in other areas. But ultimately, atheism is something a Christian should strive to embrace just like he should strive (whether or not he necessarily actually succeeds) to embrace the other attributes of Christness.

So you're a Christian atheist?
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Aesthetica
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Postby Aesthetica » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:00 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:Can you define what you mean by "christ", since the literal meaning of "annointed" or "messias" can be used by anyone who has once used deoderant ?


See there is another problem I have with Bluthianity...

Christ - from latin Christus - from greek Christos, a literal translation of hebrew Messiach, "Anointed King" or just "Anointed"...

The original usage implies anointed by the hebrew god, but Bluthianity leaves that out so, what anointed by who, with what, when and for how much, and what makes that worthy of being the founder of a religion, least of all a non-theistic religion...

"some bloke who wasn't important said some stuff that didn't matter, bow before the altar of a nobody..."

Makes even less sense to this Atheist than good old theistic-as-hell Pauline Christianity...
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:01 pm

Aesthetica wrote:
Meryuma wrote:
Actually, Jesus never mentioned that.


Matthew:
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus says Ot laws including the anti-gay, the dietary restrictions etc, are part of his message...

Unless of course Bluth says this was one of Jesus' non-christ moments... :rofl:


Well, he also said that the entire law is to love God and your neighbor, so it's ambiguous.
ᛋᛃᚢ - Social Justice Úlfheðinn
Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Lessnt
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Postby Lessnt » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Lessnt wrote:I do not know this paul no.

You never heard of Saint Paul? Seriously, and I don't mean the city.

Never.

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Beldonia
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Postby Beldonia » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:06 pm

Lessnt wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:You never heard of Saint Paul? Seriously, and I don't mean the city.

Never.

That surprises me. He's pretty dang famous. He was a saint credited with spreading Christianity. Of course, I oversimplify, but that's the general gist of it.

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