Why would god hate an athiest?

[Farnhamia]

I'm not going to indulge him, Farn.

I know what I do for a living, you know what I do for a living, and we can both be amused at the contention that I know 'absolutely nothing' about Norse paganism.

It might not, however, be appreciated that in addition to what I do for a living, I used to live in Iceland - where, as it happens, I once met the self-proclaimed High Priest of Odin. Though it might be more relevant to note that the Poetic Edda is a standard part of the school curriculum.

His continued attempts to explain away, or adapt, his extensive factual errors as either irrelevant, or by covering up factual errors by making further factual errors (such as stating that a date of 1277 - which itself doesn't relate to any significant event in Dante's life given Signor Alighieri was born in c.1265 - is somehow relevant to a statement that a work written from 1308-1321 is 14th-century in date) have by now so undermined his credibility that I don't see any point in wasting my time by countering the multiple factual errors of someone who clearly knows so little about something he thinks he knows so much about.

But I did get a laugh out of the contention that a statement by the not terribly important Florentine historian Filippo Villani (his uncle was far more important) should be taken as an official position on the Divine Comedy as Catholic dogma. An awful lot of people over the last few centuries have referred to Shakespeare and Mozart as in some manner 'divinely inspired'; I eagerly await Sanguinthium's argument that Titus Andronicus demonstrates that eating your children after they've been baked into a pie is an accepted part of Anglican doctrine, or that the Masonic opera Die Zauberflöte is held in equal regard in Catholic doctrine to the Catholic requiem mass.

Unlike Queen Victoria, I am very much amused, and hope that Sanguinthium will continue to provide us with this level of rich entertainment for some days to come.


---------------------------------------------------------------------



I realise Johz meant that to be gently sarcastic, but I would stress that - from my position - there's nothing grudging about it. There are several atheist or non-Christian posters who have contributed to this thread who have consistently shown - in this thread and in others - that while they oppose Christianity, they do so from a position of knowledge about those aspects they oppose, usually combined with a willingness to be corrected when they make a factual error, or perhaps to learn more about a specific issue that interests them, even where it's obvious they'll continue to disagree both with that issue specifically and Christianity generally. They have amply earned my respect, even though it's obvious there are some things over which we will no doubt always disagree.

They're certainly not going to dig themselves a hole of factual error, and then make that hole ever-deeper by spending 30 something pages continuing to repeat those factual errors, or attempting to explain away the factual errors by making even more factual errors.

you seem to omit about 2/3 of my post, mr mod- thou are ignorant! did you even read my sources?


repost time!

anyway, just because YOU claim it to be legend doesnt mean that nobody believes it. my local priest said he exhumed to remains of Trajen. in his ashes. wonder how that one worked besides...

the Bible wrote:"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)



Baldr is not anything close to Nordic Jesus.

Baldr predates Christianity in scandinavia. Thor is the only Norse god who would qualify as a Jesus is either Tyr or Thor, and neither of them were even trying to pretend to be peaceful.

Hitler, However was a christian.
Do try to stop trolling me- its starting to bug me.

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

[Dyakovo]

Do try to stop trolling me- its starting to bug me.

No-one is "trolling you".

Trolling: Posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). While Trolls often make these posts strictly in an attempt to provoke negative comment, it is still trolling even if you actually hold those beliefs. Intent is difficult to prove over the internet, so mods will work under their best assumptions.

Note that posts of opinions you disagree with does not automatically equate with trolling. Disagreements are expected, as long as they are done in a civil manner. Max Barry has made it clear that he welcomes all opinions in civil debate, even those that are highly unpopular or minority-held. Make your case without the invective, if you want to avoid banishment as a Troll.

[Sanguinthium]

you seem to omit about 2/3 of my post, mr mod- thou are ignorant! did you even read my sources?


repost time!

anyway, just because YOU claim it to be legend doesnt mean that nobody believes it. my local priest said he exhumed to remains of Trajen. in his ashes. wonder how that one worked besides...

the Bible wrote:"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)



Baldr is not anything close to Nordic Jesus.

Baldr predates Christianity in scandinavia. Thor is the only Norse god who would qualify as a Jesus is either Tyr or Thor, and neither of them were even trying to pretend to be peaceful.

Hitler, However was a christian.
Do try to stop trolling me- its starting to bug me.

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

something about hell, i dont remember either. at this point, im just having fun

Do try to stop trolling me- its starting to bug me.

No-one is "trolling you".

Trolling: Posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). While Trolls often make these posts strictly in an attempt to provoke negative comment, it is still trolling even if you actually hold those beliefs. Intent is difficult to prove over the internet, so mods will work under their best assumptions.

Note that posts of opinions you disagree with does not automatically equate with trolling. Disagreements are expected, as long as they are done in a civil manner. Max Barry has made it clear that he welcomes all opinions in civil debate, even those that are highly unpopular or minority-held. Make your case without the invective, if you want to avoid banishment as a Troll.

If you can't win, change the rules.
If you can't change the rules, ignore them.

ive been looking for somewhere to incorperate this on NSG for so long...

[The Archregimancy]

Hitler, However was a christian.
Do try to stop trolling me- its starting to bug me.

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

This one was a little out of left field, wasn't it? Not sure where that one came from. Who on earth was bringing up Hitler?

Happily, though, this is yet another topic I can correct Sanguinthium over, since I've written on it extensively in previous threads. These spoilers also happen to use academic citations by leading historians rather than the patently biased webpage Sanguinthium is using. Where does he find this stuff?

Anyway:

Hitler was a christian, and was raised Catholic. He did not regularly attend church (while campaigning for election he did, and with a passion) but he certainly believed in the bible, and even wrote so in Mein Kampf.

There have been at least two threads over the last two days that try to draw a direct link between Hitler and Christianity, and much of the debate has been spectacularly ill-informed. With the assistance of actual quotes - something which most people contributing don't seem to believe are necessary - I'll attempt to offer a more nuanced perspective.

Yes, Hitler may have been raised Catholic - but since Austria was a Catholic nation with a strong Catholic presence in education, it would have been unusual if he wasn't. Stating that Hitler was raised Catholic is stating the bleedingly obvious.

The real question is whether he remained Catholic/Christian.

On the question of Catholicism, we can state unequivocally that he was opposed to the Catholic church - and Christianity in general - once he was in power. One of the most recent scholarly biographies of Hitler is Ian Kershaw's highly praised two volume effort, and I offer you the following quote, emphasis added, from page 424 of volume 2, Hitler 1936-1945; Nemesis (which I pasted to another thread yesterday).

"Despite Hitler's own repeatedly expressed wish for calm in relations with the [Catholic and Lutheran] Churches as long as the war lasted - the reckoning with Christianity, in his view, had to wait for the final victory - a wave of anti-Church agitation, accompanied by an array of new measures, had taken place during the first half of 1941. The activism appears in the main to have come from below, as anti-Church radicals exploited wartime needs to try and break the vexing hold ... which the Churches continued to have on the population. But it certainly had encouragement from above, particularly through Bormann and the Party Chancellery. In a confidential circular to all Gauleiter in June 1941, Bormann had expressely declared that Christianity and National Socialism were incompatible."

Volume 1 offers more examples than volume 2, but regrettably that's in my office, and I'm typing this at home. Nonetheless, Kershaw offers several explicit example of the hostility of both Hitler specifically and Nazism generally towards Christianity; including Catholicism. A quick check of the index of either book will supply further examples.

What might Mein Kampf and Hitler's speeches have to say about his attitudes before he was in power? I've done an admittedly quick check, and certainly Hitler explicitly referred to himself as a Christian in some political speeches. However, I can't find a single example of Hitler explicitly referring to himself as a Christian that post-dates the Munich Beer Hall Putsch of 1923. This seems to signal a change in his willingness to say "I am a Christian".

Mein Kampf is a more nuanced issue. Anyone parsing the book will be able to find references to God and a creator. Here's a couple of typical examples (from the 1999 Mariner Books edition):

"The world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free.” (pg 622)
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." (pg 125)

Attempts to find quotes that explicitly state that Hitler is a Christian, is supporting Christianity, or believes his values are compatible with Christianity or inspired by Christianity are harder to come by. I couldn't find one, though again my check was fairly brief. What you will find are individual quotes praising some aspect of historical Christianity rather than current Christian beliefs. An example might include:

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

Not so much a ringing endorsement of Christian faith that; more an attempt to use (or mis-use, depending on perspective) the rise of Christianity as an example of why Hitler believed negotiation should be rejected in favour of fanatical doctrinal belief.

The totality of the evidence, suggests that while Hitler was raised a Catholic, and was happy to state that he was a Christian in the earliest days of the Nazi Party prior to the Beer Hall Putsch, by the time he came to power his hostility towards both Christianity and Catholicism was overt. However, he considered winning the war more important than eradicating the Catholic and Lutheran churches, and delayed the 'final reckoning' with Christianity as a result. It may seem inconceivable to some of the younger contributors here, but an individual's personal beliefs and political perspectives can evolve over time.

However - and this is an important point - stating that Hitler was actively opposed to Christianity by the late 1930s is not the same as stating that he was an atheist. Here the evidence is at best ambiguous, and multiple interpretations are possible. There can be little doubt that, post-1936, Hitler believed that he had been chosen by 'providence' to lead Germany to inevitable victory (though by late 1944, he knew the war was lost). His public and private pronouncements often make reference to divine favour and a creator even while anti-Christian oppression was growing in Nazi Germany. While again the evidence is inconclusive, it's by no means unreasonable to assume that Hitler may have continued to believe in a divine presence even while eventually rejecting Christianity. Given that a significant number of people on NS express similar beliefs (summed up as "I was raised a Christian, but I'm not anymore, in fact I feel some hostility towards the Church, but I still believe in some sort of God") that surely shouldn't be too hard a possibility to grasp.

they say a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.

is that what your trying to do?

Not at all. As GeneralHaNor has pointed out, I'm merely citing the latest academic work - all of it reputable - on Hitler's complex interaction with Catholicism.

But let's say the quotes I kept using in this thread aren't good enough for you; or perhaps my constant repetition of the same 2009 post suggests that I don't have anything else to add to the topic....

Maybe you'd instead like some citations from Michael Burleigh's The Third Reich: A New History, which also happened to be the winner the 2001 BBC Samuel Johnson Prize for Non-Fiction. Perhaps that might count as an additional reputable source?

Burleigh devotes an entire chapter to the vexed issue of the Nazis and religion ("Men of God", pp. 717-728).

The introductory paragraph, on page 717, reads (with emphasis added):

National Socialism, like other totalitarian dictatorships, parodied many of the eschatological and liturgical attributes of redemptive religions, while being fundamentally antagonistic towards the Churches: rivals, the Nazis saw it, in the subtle, totalising control of minds. However, the overwhelmingly Christian character of the German people meant that that Hitler dissembled his personal views behind preachy invocations of the Almighty, and distanced himself from the radically irreligious in his own Party, even though his own views were probably more extreme. During the Weimar period, he periodically traduced the Roman Catholic Centre Party for engaging in coalitions with 'atheist internationalists' in the SPD. In reality, his views were a mixture of materialist biology, a faux-Nietzschean contempt for core, as distinct from secondary, Christian values, and a visceral anti-clericism.

Still on page 718, Burleigh states, in reference to Hitler's own speeches on the issue (again, my emphasis added):

This is probably where things tended, with Greiser's Godless Warthegau [the previously Polish, and before that previously Prussian, region around Poznan] functioning as the laboratory for future policy. For policies inhibited by reasons of state in Germany and Austria, not to speak of France or Norway, could be implemented with radical impunity in occupied Poland, particularly since Roman Catholicism was so integral to a Polish nationhood the Nazis sought to extirpate. A densely rich spiritual scene was rapidly reduced to a desert. By 1941, almost all of the churches and chapels in the diocese of Posen-Gnesen were closed, and 11 per cent of the Catholic clergy had been murdered. Virtually all of the remainder had been deported or imprisoned. Many of them suffered martyrdom in Nazi concentration camps.

But what about all of those Hitler quotes about 'God' and 'the Almighty' you bleat? We've already partially dealt with these in my previous post, but Burleigh is even more explicit here. On page 719, he addresses this by noting that when Hitler said things like "the national government sees in the Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of society" in his opening speech to the Reichstag, or when Protestants were told that the 'nominally Catholic' Hitler 'thought like a Protestant', this was just a short- to medium-term political tactic used to help gain and consolidate power in an overwhelmingly Christian country.

You want a quick one sentence summary of the above?

Newsflash! Totalitarian dictator says one thing in public for purely cynical political reason, then reveals his actual policy to his inner circle in private!

NSG must be overwhelmed with stunned amazement.

You asked me what I'm trying to do... In these posts, I'm not trying to associate atheism or anti-theism (not quite the same thing) with Hitler in order to associate atheism with Nazism. I consider that argument as misleading as stating that Hitler was Catholic or Christian, and associating Nazism with theism. The latter two arguments are generally stressed by atheists and theists who want to somehow associate Hitler's genocidal regime with their opponents. This is a distraction. Hitler carried out his atrocities because he was a fundamentally warped and evil man, which he probably would have been regardless of his beliefs (or lack thereof). But nonetheless Hitler was clearly opposed to Christianity generally and Catholicism specifically by the time he came to power, whatever his pre-WWI beliefs might have been.

In any case, the real mistake you seem to be making is in assuming that I'm trying to directly associate Hitler with atheism, and somehow attempting to traduce atheism by doing so. I'm doing no such thing, as my post at the top of this page makes clear, and as do other comments in my older Kershaw-based post. I consider arguing over the nature of Hitler's precise beliefs in an attempt to suggest that either atheism or theism contributed to making him an evil shit to be a distraction. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Hitler may have had some sort of nebulous belief in a form of divine 'providence', though short of bringing Herr Shicklgruber back from the dead, we'll never know either way, will we? Goebbels wrote in his diaries in 1939 that Hitler was simultaneously "profoundly anti-Christian" and "deeply religious", so his inner circle didn't find the two concepts entirely incompatible.

Nonetheless, that Hitler was anti-Christian generally and anti-Catholic specifically, and that he planned on a full-frontal attack on Christianity within the German Reich after achieving victory, and that the attack had already been launched in some geographic areas of the Reich, is entirely accepted and substantiated by the overwhelming majority of modern historians.

Now, if you have reputable academic sources that argue otherwise - and random unsubstantiated websites by non-academics with an axe to grind very much don't count - or if you can provide cited research of your own which might demonstrate why I should take you more seriously than Sir Ian Kershaw, Baron Bullock (who was also, as it happens, a vice-chancellor of Oxford University), Michael Burleigh, Albert Speer, Martin Bormann, and Joseph Goebbels, then you're very welcome to provide it here. In the meantime, I know whom I find more convincing.

Next!

[Farnhamia]

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

something about hell, i dont remember either. at this point, im just having fun

No-one is "trolling you".

If you can't win, change the rules.
If you can't change the rules, ignore them.

ive been looking for somewhere to incorperate this on NSG for so long...

So you're the one who's trolling.

[Sanguinthium]

something about hell, i dont remember either. at this point, im just having fun




If you can't win, change the rules.
If you can't change the rules, ignore them.

ive been looking for somewhere to incorperate this on NSG for so long...

So you're the one who's trolling.

not quite.. im not trying to piss anyone off i just 'changed' the rules to favor me

[Sanguinthium]

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

This one was a little out of left field, wasn't it? Not sure where that one came from. Who on earth was bringing up Hitler?

Happily, though, this is yet another topic I can correct Sanguinthium over, since I've written on it extensively in previous threads. These spoilers also happen to use academic citations by leading historians rather than the patently biased webpage Sanguinthium is using. Where does he find this stuff?

Anyway:

There have been at least two threads over the last two days that try to draw a direct link between Hitler and Christianity, and much of the debate has been spectacularly ill-informed. With the assistance of actual quotes - something which most people contributing don't seem to believe are necessary - I'll attempt to offer a more nuanced perspective.

Yes, Hitler may have been raised Catholic - but since Austria was a Catholic nation with a strong Catholic presence in education, it would have been unusual if he wasn't. Stating that Hitler was raised Catholic is stating the bleedingly obvious.

The real question is whether he remained Catholic/Christian.

On the question of Catholicism, we can state unequivocally that he was opposed to the Catholic church - and Christianity in general - once he was in power. One of the most recent scholarly biographies of Hitler is Ian Kershaw's highly praised two volume effort, and I offer you the following quote, emphasis added, from page 424 of volume 2, Hitler 1936-1945; Nemesis (which I pasted to another thread yesterday).

"Despite Hitler's own repeatedly expressed wish for calm in relations with the [Catholic and Lutheran] Churches as long as the war lasted - the reckoning with Christianity, in his view, had to wait for the final victory - a wave of anti-Church agitation, accompanied by an array of new measures, had taken place during the first half of 1941. The activism appears in the main to have come from below, as anti-Church radicals exploited wartime needs to try and break the vexing hold ... which the Churches continued to have on the population. But it certainly had encouragement from above, particularly through Bormann and the Party Chancellery. In a confidential circular to all Gauleiter in June 1941, Bormann had expressely declared that Christianity and National Socialism were incompatible."

Volume 1 offers more examples than volume 2, but regrettably that's in my office, and I'm typing this at home. Nonetheless, Kershaw offers several explicit example of the hostility of both Hitler specifically and Nazism generally towards Christianity; including Catholicism. A quick check of the index of either book will supply further examples.

What might Mein Kampf and Hitler's speeches have to say about his attitudes before he was in power? I've done an admittedly quick check, and certainly Hitler explicitly referred to himself as a Christian in some political speeches. However, I can't find a single example of Hitler explicitly referring to himself as a Christian that post-dates the Munich Beer Hall Putsch of 1923. This seems to signal a change in his willingness to say "I am a Christian".

Mein Kampf is a more nuanced issue. Anyone parsing the book will be able to find references to God and a creator. Here's a couple of typical examples (from the 1999 Mariner Books edition):

"The world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free.” (pg 622)
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." (pg 125)

Attempts to find quotes that explicitly state that Hitler is a Christian, is supporting Christianity, or believes his values are compatible with Christianity or inspired by Christianity are harder to come by. I couldn't find one, though again my check was fairly brief. What you will find are individual quotes praising some aspect of historical Christianity rather than current Christian beliefs. An example might include:

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

Not so much a ringing endorsement of Christian faith that; more an attempt to use (or mis-use, depending on perspective) the rise of Christianity as an example of why Hitler believed negotiation should be rejected in favour of fanatical doctrinal belief.

The totality of the evidence, suggests that while Hitler was raised a Catholic, and was happy to state that he was a Christian in the earliest days of the Nazi Party prior to the Beer Hall Putsch, by the time he came to power his hostility towards both Christianity and Catholicism was overt. However, he considered winning the war more important than eradicating the Catholic and Lutheran churches, and delayed the 'final reckoning' with Christianity as a result. It may seem inconceivable to some of the younger contributors here, but an individual's personal beliefs and political perspectives can evolve over time.

However - and this is an important point - stating that Hitler was actively opposed to Christianity by the late 1930s is not the same as stating that he was an atheist. Here the evidence is at best ambiguous, and multiple interpretations are possible. There can be little doubt that, post-1936, Hitler believed that he had been chosen by 'providence' to lead Germany to inevitable victory (though by late 1944, he knew the war was lost). His public and private pronouncements often make reference to divine favour and a creator even while anti-Christian oppression was growing in Nazi Germany. While again the evidence is inconclusive, it's by no means unreasonable to assume that Hitler may have continued to believe in a divine presence even while eventually rejecting Christianity. Given that a significant number of people on NS express similar beliefs (summed up as "I was raised a Christian, but I'm not anymore, in fact I feel some hostility towards the Church, but I still believe in some sort of God") that surely shouldn't be too hard a possibility to grasp.

Not at all. As GeneralHaNor has pointed out, I'm merely citing the latest academic work - all of it reputable - on Hitler's complex interaction with Catholicism.

But let's say the quotes I kept using in this thread aren't good enough for you; or perhaps my constant repetition of the same 2009 post suggests that I don't have anything else to add to the topic....

Maybe you'd instead like some citations from Michael Burleigh's The Third Reich: A New History, which also happened to be the winner the 2001 BBC Samuel Johnson Prize for Non-Fiction. Perhaps that might count as an additional reputable source?

Burleigh devotes an entire chapter to the vexed issue of the Nazis and religion ("Men of God", pp. 717-728).

The introductory paragraph, on page 717, reads (with emphasis added):



Still on page 718, Burleigh states, in reference to Hitler's own speeches on the issue (again, my emphasis added):



But what about all of those Hitler quotes about 'God' and 'the Almighty' you bleat? We've already partially dealt with these in my previous post, but Burleigh is even more explicit here. On page 719, he addresses this by noting that when Hitler said things like "the national government sees in the Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of society" in his opening speech to the Reichstag, or when Protestants were told that the 'nominally Catholic' Hitler 'thought like a Protestant', this was just a short- to medium-term political tactic used to help gain and consolidate power in an overwhelmingly Christian country.

You want a quick one sentence summary of the above?

Newsflash! Totalitarian dictator says one thing in public for purely cynical political reason, then reveals his actual policy to his inner circle in private!

NSG must be overwhelmed with stunned amazement.

You asked me what I'm trying to do... In these posts, I'm not trying to associate atheism or anti-theism (not quite the same thing) with Hitler in order to associate atheism with Nazism. I consider that argument as misleading as stating that Hitler was Catholic or Christian, and associating Nazism with theism. The latter two arguments are generally stressed by atheists and theists who want to somehow associate Hitler's genocidal regime with their opponents. This is a distraction. Hitler carried out his atrocities because he was a fundamentally warped and evil man, which he probably would have been regardless of his beliefs (or lack thereof). But nonetheless Hitler was clearly opposed to Christianity generally and Catholicism specifically by the time he came to power, whatever his pre-WWI beliefs might have been.

In any case, the real mistake you seem to be making is in assuming that I'm trying to directly associate Hitler with atheism, and somehow attempting to traduce atheism by doing so. I'm doing no such thing, as my post at the top of this page makes clear, and as do other comments in my older Kershaw-based post. I consider arguing over the nature of Hitler's precise beliefs in an attempt to suggest that either atheism or theism contributed to making him an evil shit to be a distraction. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Hitler may have had some sort of nebulous belief in a form of divine 'providence', though short of bringing Herr Shicklgruber back from the dead, we'll never know either way, will we? Goebbels wrote in his diaries in 1939 that Hitler was simultaneously "profoundly anti-Christian" and "deeply religious", so his inner circle didn't find the two concepts entirely incompatible.

Nonetheless, that Hitler was anti-Christian generally and anti-Catholic specifically, and that he planned on a full-frontal attack on Christianity within the German Reich after achieving victory, and that the attack had already been launched in some geographic areas of the Reich, is entirely accepted and substantiated by the overwhelming majority of modern historians.

Now, if you have reputable academic sources that argue otherwise - and random unsubstantiated websites by non-academics with an axe to grind very much don't count - or if you can provide cited research of your own which might demonstrate why I should take you more seriously than Sir Ian Kershaw, Baron Bullock (who was also, as it happens, a vice-chancellor of Oxford University), Michael Burleigh, Albert Speer, Martin Bormann, and Joseph Goebbels, then you're very welcome to provide it here. In the meantime, I know whom I find more convincing.

Next!

no, he was christian.

How the Nazi Regime converted the people:

a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession...”

b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

Nazi Belt Bucklef) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.

g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.

-1 for Godwinning the thread.

What was the question? I've forgotten.

This one was a little out of left field, wasn't it? Not sure where that one came from. Who on earth was bringing up Hitler?

Happily, though, this is yet another topic I can correct Sanguinthium over, since I've written on it extensively in previous threads. These spoilers also happen to use academic citations by leading historians rather than the patently biased webpage Sanguinthium is using. Where does he find this stuff?

Anyway:

There have been at least two threads over the last two days that try to draw a direct link between Hitler and Christianity, and much of the debate has been spectacularly ill-informed. With the assistance of actual quotes - something which most people contributing don't seem to believe are necessary - I'll attempt to offer a more nuanced perspective.

Yes, Hitler may have been raised Catholic - but since Austria was a Catholic nation with a strong Catholic presence in education, it would have been unusual if he wasn't. Stating that Hitler was raised Catholic is stating the bleedingly obvious.

The real question is whether he remained Catholic/Christian.

On the question of Catholicism, we can state unequivocally that he was opposed to the Catholic church - and Christianity in general - once he was in power. One of the most recent scholarly biographies of Hitler is Ian Kershaw's highly praised two volume effort, and I offer you the following quote, emphasis added, from page 424 of volume 2, Hitler 1936-1945; Nemesis (which I pasted to another thread yesterday).

"Despite Hitler's own repeatedly expressed wish for calm in relations with the [Catholic and Lutheran] Churches as long as the war lasted - the reckoning with Christianity, in his view, had to wait for the final victory - a wave of anti-Church agitation, accompanied by an array of new measures, had taken place during the first half of 1941. The activism appears in the main to have come from below, as anti-Church radicals exploited wartime needs to try and break the vexing hold ... which the Churches continued to have on the population. But it certainly had encouragement from above, particularly through Bormann and the Party Chancellery. In a confidential circular to all Gauleiter in June 1941, Bormann had expressely declared that Christianity and National Socialism were incompatible."

Volume 1 offers more examples than volume 2, but regrettably that's in my office, and I'm typing this at home. Nonetheless, Kershaw offers several explicit example of the hostility of both Hitler specifically and Nazism generally towards Christianity; including Catholicism. A quick check of the index of either book will supply further examples.

What might Mein Kampf and Hitler's speeches have to say about his attitudes before he was in power? I've done an admittedly quick check, and certainly Hitler explicitly referred to himself as a Christian in some political speeches. However, I can't find a single example of Hitler explicitly referring to himself as a Christian that post-dates the Munich Beer Hall Putsch of 1923. This seems to signal a change in his willingness to say "I am a Christian".

Mein Kampf is a more nuanced issue. Anyone parsing the book will be able to find references to God and a creator. Here's a couple of typical examples (from the 1999 Mariner Books edition):

"The world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free.” (pg 622)
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." (pg 125)

Attempts to find quotes that explicitly state that Hitler is a Christian, is supporting Christianity, or believes his values are compatible with Christianity or inspired by Christianity are harder to come by. I couldn't find one, though again my check was fairly brief. What you will find are individual quotes praising some aspect of historical Christianity rather than current Christian beliefs. An example might include:

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

Not so much a ringing endorsement of Christian faith that; more an attempt to use (or mis-use, depending on perspective) the rise of Christianity as an example of why Hitler believed negotiation should be rejected in favour of fanatical doctrinal belief.

The totality of the evidence, suggests that while Hitler was raised a Catholic, and was happy to state that he was a Christian in the earliest days of the Nazi Party prior to the Beer Hall Putsch, by the time he came to power his hostility towards both Christianity and Catholicism was overt. However, he considered winning the war more important than eradicating the Catholic and Lutheran churches, and delayed the 'final reckoning' with Christianity as a result. It may seem inconceivable to some of the younger contributors here, but an individual's personal beliefs and political perspectives can evolve over time.

However - and this is an important point - stating that Hitler was actively opposed to Christianity by the late 1930s is not the same as stating that he was an atheist. Here the evidence is at best ambiguous, and multiple interpretations are possible. There can be little doubt that, post-1936, Hitler believed that he had been chosen by 'providence' to lead Germany to inevitable victory (though by late 1944, he knew the war was lost). His public and private pronouncements often make reference to divine favour and a creator even while anti-Christian oppression was growing in Nazi Germany. While again the evidence is inconclusive, it's by no means unreasonable to assume that Hitler may have continued to believe in a divine presence even while eventually rejecting Christianity. Given that a significant number of people on NS express similar beliefs (summed up as "I was raised a Christian, but I'm not anymore, in fact I feel some hostility towards the Church, but I still believe in some sort of God") that surely shouldn't be too hard a possibility to grasp.

Not at all. As GeneralHaNor has pointed out, I'm merely citing the latest academic work - all of it reputable - on Hitler's complex interaction with Catholicism.

But let's say the quotes I kept using in this thread aren't good enough for you; or perhaps my constant repetition of the same 2009 post suggests that I don't have anything else to add to the topic....

Maybe you'd instead like some citations from Michael Burleigh's The Third Reich: A New History, which also happened to be the winner the 2001 BBC Samuel Johnson Prize for Non-Fiction. Perhaps that might count as an additional reputable source?

Burleigh devotes an entire chapter to the vexed issue of the Nazis and religion ("Men of God", pp. 717-728).

The introductory paragraph, on page 717, reads (with emphasis added):



Still on page 718, Burleigh states, in reference to Hitler's own speeches on the issue (again, my emphasis added):



But what about all of those Hitler quotes about 'God' and 'the Almighty' you bleat? We've already partially dealt with these in my previous post, but Burleigh is even more explicit here. On page 719, he addresses this by noting that when Hitler said things like "the national government sees in the Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of society" in his opening speech to the Reichstag, or when Protestants were told that the 'nominally Catholic' Hitler 'thought like a Protestant', this was just a short- to medium-term political tactic used to help gain and consolidate power in an overwhelmingly Christian country.

You want a quick one sentence summary of the above?

Newsflash! Totalitarian dictator says one thing in public for purely cynical political reason, then reveals his actual policy to his inner circle in private!

NSG must be overwhelmed with stunned amazement.

You asked me what I'm trying to do... In these posts, I'm not trying to associate atheism or anti-theism (not quite the same thing) with Hitler in order to associate atheism with Nazism. I consider that argument as misleading as stating that Hitler was Catholic or Christian, and associating Nazism with theism. The latter two arguments are generally stressed by atheists and theists who want to somehow associate Hitler's genocidal regime with their opponents. This is a distraction. Hitler carried out his atrocities because he was a fundamentally warped and evil man, which he probably would have been regardless of his beliefs (or lack thereof). But nonetheless Hitler was clearly opposed to Christianity generally and Catholicism specifically by the time he came to power, whatever his pre-WWI beliefs might have been.

In any case, the real mistake you seem to be making is in assuming that I'm trying to directly associate Hitler with atheism, and somehow attempting to traduce atheism by doing so. I'm doing no such thing, as my post at the top of this page makes clear, and as do other comments in my older Kershaw-based post. I consider arguing over the nature of Hitler's precise beliefs in an attempt to suggest that either atheism or theism contributed to making him an evil shit to be a distraction. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Hitler may have had some sort of nebulous belief in a form of divine 'providence', though short of bringing Herr Shicklgruber back from the dead, we'll never know either way, will we? Goebbels wrote in his diaries in 1939 that Hitler was simultaneously "profoundly anti-Christian" and "deeply religious", so his inner circle didn't find the two concepts entirely incompatible.

Nonetheless, that Hitler was anti-Christian generally and anti-Catholic specifically, and that he planned on a full-frontal attack on Christianity within the German Reich after achieving victory, and that the attack had already been launched in some geographic areas of the Reich, is entirely accepted and substantiated by the overwhelming majority of modern historians.

Now, if you have reputable academic sources that argue otherwise - and random unsubstantiated websites by non-academics with an axe to grind very much don't count - or if you can provide cited research of your own which might demonstrate why I should take you more seriously than Sir Ian Kershaw, Baron Bullock (who was also, as it happens, a vice-chancellor of Oxford University), Michael Burleigh, Albert Speer, Martin Bormann, and Joseph Goebbels, then you're very welcome to provide it here. In the meantime, I know whom I find more convincing.

Next!

and again you miss my baldr post. why do you ignore me when i correct you with logic? i think i know my own faith (from a Swede-American also) better than you do.

[The Rich Port]

Considering how galactically gigantic God's scope of life might be, I doubt he cares whether I think he exists.

What does it matter what others think? If you know something is true, then it's true, regardless of the proof. Hell, some people don't believe in things there IS proof for (*cough*EVOLUTION*cough*). Not believing in something so completely unthinkable and unimaginable as an omnipotent superbeing that created everything and anything, including himself (though that part I don't believe) is easy to understand, especially if the people who invented him were particularly making shit up on the day that they thought him up.

Personally, I think most religions were invented by people high off their asses. The idea is intriguing, but the methods by which this "knowledge" were acquired are suspect at best.

While I still believe in God, I'm not going to blame others for not believing in him. And I doubt God even cares OR notices.

[Dyakovo]

So you're the one who's trolling.

not quite.. im not trying to piss anyone off i just 'changed' the rules to favor me

Unless you're Max Barry you are incapable of changing the rules.

[Dyakovo]

no, he was christian.

Yeah, that's a real reliable source right there...

[The Rich Port]

no, he was christian.

Yeah, that's a real reliable source right there...

Honestly. It's like asking Dwight Eisenhower if Hitler was a jerk.

What the fuck do you THINK he's going to say?

[Farnhamia]

Yeah, that's a real reliable source right there...

Honestly. It's like asking Dwight Eisenhower if Hitler was a jerk.

What the fuck do you THINK he's going to say?

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

[Dyakovo]

Honestly. It's like asking Dwight Eisenhower if Hitler was a jerk.

What the fuck do you THINK he's going to say?

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

Except he isn't the only one according to the abrahamaic holy books...

[The Rich Port]

Honestly. It's like asking Dwight Eisenhower if Hitler was a jerk.

What the fuck do you THINK he's going to say?

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

I find it ironic, really.

Knowing how big the universe is now and how small people thought it was back then, I wonder why God picked us over... I dunno, the Asari, in Quadrant C5 of the AER21 Galaxy that -> way, who are uber hot unisex chicks and totally peaceful.

The Jews and the Christians are narrow-minded for believing only what is in The Bible. Of the holy texts, I consider it particularly lesser. Compared to, say, the Hindu texts ( ), Buddhist philosophy teachings, or even the fucking Qur'an, it only tells stories rather than instruct and guide. It's very open-to-interpretation like a novel, or more nipped and picked than the other texts. Granted, the Hindus have thousands of sects, but they all have the same under-current (dharma).

Why anyone falls into the pits of misconception (in particular, assuming yours is the only faith and the only correct faith) is flabbergasting.

[Farnhamia]

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

Except he isn't the only one according to the abrahamaic holy books...

True, but his attitude is that he's the only one who counts. All the rest are just "idols" worshipped by idolators. Point taken, though.

[Sanguinthium]

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

I find it ironic, really.

Knowing how big the universe is now and how small people thought it was back then, I wonder why God picked us over... I dunno, the Asari, in Quadrant C5 of the AER21 Galaxy that -> way, who are uber hot unisex chicks and totally peaceful.

The Jews and the Christians are narrow-minded for believing only what is in The Bible. Of the holy texts, I consider it particularly lesser. Compared to, say, the Hindu texts ( ), Buddhist philosophy teachings, or even the fucking Qur'an, it only tells stories rather than instruct and guide. It's very open-to-interpretation like a novel, or more nipped and picked than the other texts. Granted, the Hindus have thousands of sects, but they all have the same under-current (dharma).

Why anyone falls into the pits of misconception (in particular, assuming yours is the only faith and the only correct faith) is flabbergasting.

1. how do you get this information... are you.. an ALIEN!!!??

2. god creates entire universe and earth. other couple billion stars, planets just accessories. or, if you come with the 'american dad' train of thought, they are 'side projects' XD

3. i prefer to Koran to just about any religious text; it makes for a damn good read for one, and the fact that it contradicts itself much less than the bible (although the Koran being about 300-500 pages depending on publisher, and the bible pushing 3000 gives much less room for error)

buddhist texts are ok, but just confuse me
Hinduism is just over my head

From what I know about Ike, he'd just look at you and move on to something with actual relevance to anything.

Why would God hate an atheist? I don't think that he would. Assuming we're talking about the God of Abraham, who covers Judaism and Christianity and Islam, he wants everyone to worship him, in return for which he makes various promises. His reason for this is that he is the only god there is, and he's loving and kind and merciful, so worshipping him should be a no-brainer. If a person denies his existence, that makes God sad and there are consequences, which make the non-believer even sadder, because they're going to be denied the wonderfulness of his ... wonderfulness. All this assuming you buy into the whole "I'm the only one" schtick.

Except he isn't the only one according to the abrahamaic holy books...

i always read it as saying people were douches and worshiped them, but they dont exist. like "where is baal when the Babylonians invade" or "dagon wont save you from the Phoenicians!"

i really am amazed at how quickly OT jews convert around.

[Farnhamia]

I find it ironic, really.

Knowing how big the universe is now and how small people thought it was back then, I wonder why God picked us over... I dunno, the Asari, in Quadrant C5 of the AER21 Galaxy that -> way, who are uber hot unisex chicks and totally peaceful.

The Jews and the Christians are narrow-minded for believing only what is in The Bible. Of the holy texts, I consider it particularly lesser. Compared to, say, the Hindu texts ( ), Buddhist philosophy teachings, or even the fucking Qur'an, it only tells stories rather than instruct and guide. It's very open-to-interpretation like a novel, or more nipped and picked than the other texts. Granted, the Hindus have thousands of sects, but they all have the same under-current (dharma).

Why anyone falls into the pits of misconception (in particular, assuming yours is the only faith and the only correct faith) is flabbergasting.

1. how do you get this information... are you.. an ALIEN!!!??

2. god creates entire universe and earth. other couple billion stars, planets just accessories. or, if you come with the 'american dad' train of thought, they are 'side projects' XD

3. i prefer to Koran to just about any religious text; it makes for a damn good read for one, and the fact that it contradicts itself much less than the bible (although the Koran being about 300-500 pages depending on publisher, and the bible pushing 3000 gives much less room for error)

buddhist texts are ok, but just confuse me
Hinduism is just over my head

Except he isn't the only one according to the abrahamaic holy books...

i always read it as saying people were douches and worshiped them, but they dont exist. like "where is baal when the Babylonians invade" or "dagon wont save you from the Phoenicians!"

i really am amazed at how quickly OT jews convert around.

Convert around to what?

back on the point of Yahweh-exclusiveness or not that Dya brought up, that exclusiveness doesn't really come into Judaism until the reforms under King Josiah of Judea. I had run across that the other day but had forgotten.

[Sanguinthium]

no, he was christian.

Yeah, that's a real reliable source right there...

Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

1. how do you get this information... are you.. an ALIEN!!!??

2. god creates entire universe and earth. other couple billion stars, planets just accessories. or, if you come with the 'american dad' train of thought, they are 'side projects' XD

3. i prefer to Koran to just about any religious text; it makes for a damn good read for one, and the fact that it contradicts itself much less than the bible (although the Koran being about 300-500 pages depending on publisher, and the bible pushing 3000 gives much less room for error)

buddhist texts are ok, but just confuse me
Hinduism is just over my head




i always read it as saying people were douches and worshiped them, but they dont exist. like "where is baal when the Babylonians invade" or "dagon wont save you from the Phoenicians!"

i really am amazed at how quickly OT jews convert around.

Convert around to what?

back on the point of Yahweh-exclusiveness or not that Dya brought up, that exclusiveness doesn't really come into Judaism until the reforms under King Josiah of Judea. I had run across that the other day but had forgotten.

from what i read, the jews would just worship yahweh for a few years, after being invaded then liberated, then they would flip to other gods like say, Moloch or Dagon, and get invaded, and the cycle would repeat.

[The Rich Port]

epic snip of pointlessness

Don't try to prove anything about Christians by using Hitler.

2.1 billion people are also Christians. Are they also Nazis?

You might as well say people with blonde hair and blues eyes are also all Nazis.

[Farnhamia]

Yeah, that's a real reliable source right there...

Quotes from Hitler:

Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

Which has what to do with the question whether God would hate an atheist? See also, Topic, Staying On.

[Sanguinthium]

epic snip of pointlessness

Don't try to prove anything about Christians by using Hitler.

2.1 billion people are also Christians. Are they also Nazis?

You might as well say people with blonde hair and blues eyes are also all Nazis.

1. i was trying to re-vitalize this thread by Godwining it

2. my point is that HITLER did what he did because of Christianity.

[Farnhamia]

Don't try to prove anything about Christians by using Hitler.

2.1 billion people are also Christians. Are they also Nazis?

You might as well say people with blonde hair and blues eyes are also all Nazis.

1. i was trying to re-vitalize this thread by Godwining it

2. my point is that HITLER did what he did because of Christianity.

1. The thread didn't need revitalizing.
2. That's debatable and the debate should happen elsewhere.

[The Rich Port]

Don't try to prove anything about Christians by using Hitler.

2.1 billion people are also Christians. Are they also Nazis?

You might as well say people with blonde hair and blues eyes are also all Nazis.

1. i was trying to re-vitalize this thread by Godwining it

2. my point is that HITLER did what he did because of Christianity.

1.) Godwin once, shame on me. Godwin twice, shame on you.

2.) Most likely, he did not. Most likely, he USED such ideologies and viewpoints to craft the illusion of Aryanism and broadcast it to the people. However, there is a measurable difference between being a Christian and being a Nazi.

[Sanguinthium]

1. i was trying to re-vitalize this thread by Godwining it

2. my point is that HITLER did what he did because of Christianity.

1. The thread didn't need revitalizing.
2. That's debatable and the debate should happen elsewhere.

alright, ill wait.. for now

1. i was trying to re-vitalize this thread by Godwining it

2. my point is that HITLER did what he did because of Christianity.

1.) Godwin once, shame on me. Godwin twice, shame on you.

2.) Most likely, he did not. Most likely, he USED such ideologies and viewpoints to craft the illusion of Aryanism and broadcast it to the people. However, there is a measurable difference between being a Christian and being a Nazi.

read the quotes.. and we are supposed to leave this for another thread

[Farnhamia]

1. The thread didn't need revitalizing.
2. That's debatable and the debate should happen elsewhere.

alright, ill wait.. for now

Why wait? Go start a thread on whether Hitler was acting out of his deeply-held Christian principles or merely because he was an asshole who used whatever excuse he could find to gain and hold power until his country was bombed and invaded and partitioned and ground into the dust.