Pro-Choice arguments.

[JJ Place]

Humans discovered the concept of murder. Humans did not create the concept of murder.


Without understanding the the idea of murder, murder is still murder. The non-understanding of a concept in no manner affects the actuality of the concept. Children might not understand the concept of murder, might not hold a definition or terminology of the concept, regardless, the concept of remains in existence, with select individuals un-aware of the concept.


That's quite an arrogant and homo-centric view-point. What makes you believe humans are the sole species to tag the concept of murder, definite the concept, and apply words to the definition? Humans create their own definitions and terminologies; they cannot alter the very existences of the Cosmos with belief and perception.



You'll find your quite wrong, should ever communication with Inter-Galactic societies be completed.

Once the little green men show up I'll admit defeat...

Your choice. The chances are that these individuals will not be little green men, however; these individuals will be as diverse as those you already know.

This argument is going nowhere.

I know of this.

You cannot convince me of anything.

Not my intention.

I cannot convince you.

Neither my intention.

When neither person budges, the debate ends.

Not true; how can you be certain we were having a debate, rather than a casual conversation?

Although that just means we have two differing opinions that we believe

You might believe, I don't believe. I only know.

in passionately, and I can live with that.
Been fun...I'm out.

Suit yourself, Krilo.

[JJ Place]

DUI deaths are manslaughter. Even if they were "charged" with murder the murder charges would be dropped. Malice means you intend to harm somebody even if you're not thinking about it. It can either be manslaughter or second degree murder. Either way malice is involved and you are completely wrong about this. Your opinion that abortion is murder is completely wrong.

That's why 1) people are actually convicted of murder in fatal DUI crashes, and 2) I am legally entitled to believe whatever I want, even if you still believe in not-so-definitive-definitions.

You're legally entitled to be incorrect; your right to be wrong shall not be infringed.

[Ceannairceach]

What? Yes their was. This is a debate; He debated. But, you pointing out left and right that you have the right to your opinion proves nothing, does nothing, and is nothing in this debate.

So there was no need for me to voice my opinion, but a need for him to voice his?

Your "opinion" was that you had a right to voice your opinion, a point that is nonsensical to this debate.

[Nova Caesaraugusta]

"I know that this is most likely going to end up being a loosing battle, but I am trying to convince my parents (who are strongly conservative) that allowing women to choose to have abortions is right. They refuse to listen to anything I say, simply dismissing my arguments without listening to them.

My question to you, NS, is what are some of the strongest pro-choice arguments out there?

thanks for the help

p.s. if you are against abortion, feel free to chime in too."


Consciousness is what makes us human, and it's what makes us different from the rest of life. Why are you eating CHICKEN FETUSES every day? What makes us so much better than them? Or the ants you step on?

Here's a comparison. There are three parts of the spectrum...

Pro-Life (Conservative American) - Pro-Choice (Canada)- Population Control (China)

Two parts of this spectrum are authouritarian, but as always the center is the most moderate and the most accepting and the most reasonable. What makes Pro-Lifers any less authouritarian than China's current crooked regime? FORCE is the problem, because FORCE destroys democracy, so if your parents are really strong on American "liberty and democracy" then you can mention that.

The question is then this... Is a fetus a human being? Does it have a right to live, and as much as the parent?

If life begins at conception...

Then any woman who has... initiated meiosis at least once must be a serial killer (that's from George Carlin by the way) because many of the fertilized eggs do not reach the next phase. Also, that cell is simply a multiplying organism and that means that your entire body is made up of living people... If god had a plan for everyone, by the way, then his plan would have to have been pro abortion because so many fetuses are aborted.

If life begins when the fetus first develops...

Then take this situation

I cloned myself (not that I would ever do this ) but didn't give my clone a brain, and I live out my life outside etc. and the clone "lives" on life support inside for it's life, but a decision comes where a friend of mine could be in danger or have a really hard life if the clone develops a brain, although it hasn't yet, Does it make more sense to argue that the clone should be kept on life support or that we should take it off life support?

That's an argument from a male perspective though, so maybe I shouldn't be involved in the debate but it seems to me that too many people are persecuted (figuratively & literally) for having abortions or, as in many authouritarian countries, for not having them.

CHOICE
over
ENFORCEMENT

[Bwana Mungo]

I understand why a woman would want to get abort an unborn baby if she got it on accident. But i'm still very against it. Murdering unborn babies is just...ugh how can anyone stand for this. Killing babies! I mean come on! It's just sick....

[The Germania Alliance]

So there was no need for me to voice my opinion, but a need for him to voice his?

Your "opinion" was that you had a right to voice your opinion, a point that is nonsensical to this debate.

It's a fact that I have a right to voice my opinion, and it's in my opinion that abortion is murder. It's also fact that he has the right to tell me I'm wrong, even if I'm not.

Again, I didn't have to voice my opinion, nor did he, and to that extent I agree with you.

[Ceannairceach]

I understand why a woman would want to get abort an unborn baby if she got it on accident. But i'm still very against it. Murdering unborn babies is just...ugh how can anyone stand for this. Killing babies! I mean come on! It's just sick....

Not murder, its legal.
Not babies; Babies imply born. Fetuses or embryos are far more appropriate terms.

[Wiztopia]

They don't have a lack of ethics either.

Yes there is, it's just negligible so as to almost not exist.

No it is entirely non existent. They do not have a lack of ethics at all for getting an abortion.

I understand why a woman would want to get abort an unborn baby if she got it on accident. But i'm still very against it. Murdering unborn babies is just...ugh how can anyone stand for this. Killing babies! I mean come on! It's just sick....

I agree. Killing babies is indeed sick. Killing fetuses isn't.

[Krilo]

Perhaps there's another sense that the dictionary editors missed, though.


Not matching up perfectly with the dictionary definition does not make a particular usage of a word wrong. I suspect you didn't actually read my above post. Dictionaries are not definitive. They are references for readers, to help a reader figure out what someone might probably mean when he uses a word--but they're not absolutely reliable. They certainly don't dictate to writers how they must use a word.

It doesn't matter. Abortion is not murder and never will be murder. People who say so are usually morons who just hump their bibles and make up bullshit that the bible even mentions abortion. Abortion is not murder no matter how you put it. Morally, ethically, dictionary, legal, etc. Anybody who says so is just plain 100% wrong.

That comment doesn't help your argument much. In simpler terms: don't call names stupid!
Seriously though, attacking entire groups of people based on their religion is a dick move. Hitler did it, and no one likes Hitler.

[Wiztopia]

It doesn't matter. Abortion is not murder and never will be murder. People who say so are usually morons who just hump their bibles and make up bullshit that the bible even mentions abortion. Abortion is not murder no matter how you put it. Morally, ethically, dictionary, legal, etc. Anybody who says so is just plain 100% wrong.

That comment doesn't help your argument much. In simpler terms: don't call names stupid!
Seriously though, attacking entire groups of people based on their religion is a dick move. Hitler did it, and no one likes Hitler.

No it isn't. Hitler killed 6 million Jews because of their religion. Did I kill 6 million Christians? Also neo-nazi's like Hitler.

[New England and The Maritimes]

That comment doesn't help your argument much. In simpler terms: don't call names stupid!
Seriously though, attacking entire groups of people based on their religion is a dick move. Hitler did it, and no one likes Hitler.

No it isn't. Hitler killed 6 million Jews because of their religion. Did I kill 6 million Christians? Also neo-nazi's life Hitler.

It was their race. I don't think the Gestapo cared how often you went to temple.

[Wiztopia]

No it isn't. Hitler killed 6 million Jews because of their religion. Did I kill 6 million Christians? Also neo-nazi's life Hitler.

It was their race. I don't think the Gestapo cared how often you went to temple.

Close enough. The point is there is nothing wrong at all about attacking an entire religion.

[Krilo]

It was their race. I don't think the Gestapo cared how often you went to temple.

Close enough. The point is there is nothing wrong at all about attacking an entire religion.

[Wiztopia]

Close enough. The point is there is nothing wrong at all about attacking an entire religion.

Nice contribution.

[Krilo]

Nice contribution.

Your welcome. I thought about it for awhile.

[Wiztopia]

Nice contribution.

Your welcome. I thought about it for awhile.

I can tell. You made this thread much better with that post.

[Rhutlandia]

I understand why a woman would want to get abort an unborn baby if she got it on accident. But i'm still very against it. Murdering unborn babies is just...ugh how can anyone stand for this. Killing babies! I mean come on! It's just sick....

Not murder, its legal.
Not babies; Babies imply born. Fetuses or embryos are far more appropriate terms.

First off: I have never, ever heard a woman with a wanted pregnancy call the child within her a fetus or an embryo. I have heard this reference only when there was an unwanted pregnancy or there was something that caused an early termination of the pregnancy. It really depends on what they want their memory of the pregnancy to be.

Now: There is a point at which the baby is, well, a baby and no longer considered a fetus. And this is before the baby is born.

[Bluth Corporation]

Not murder, its legal.
Not babies; Babies imply born. Fetuses or embryos are far more appropriate terms.

First off: I have never, ever heard a woman with a wanted pregnancy call the child within her a fetus or an embryo. I have heard this reference only when there was an unwanted pregnancy or there was something that caused an early termination of the pregnancy. It really depends on what they want their memory of the pregnancy to be.

Okay, and? That's a very personal decision.

Now: There is a point at which the baby is, well, a baby and no longer considered a fetus. And this is before the baby is born.

Not in all cases, as you yourself just acknowledged.

[Ceannairceach]

First off: I have never, ever heard a woman with a wanted pregnancy call the child within her a fetus or an embryo. I have heard this reference only when there was an unwanted pregnancy or there was something that caused an early termination of the pregnancy. It really depends on what they want their memory of the pregnancy to be.

Now: There is a point at which the baby is, well, a baby and no longer considered a fetus. And this is before the baby is born.

What they call it hardly has any effect on what it is.

Fine, agreed. This does not dissuade from the fact that, at the point in which most women pursue abortions, they would not be considered babies.

[Pesda]

That comment doesn't help your argument much. In simpler terms: don't call names stupid!
Seriously though, attacking entire groups of people based on their religion is a dick move. Hitler did it, and no one likes Hitler.

No it isn't. Hitler killed 6 million Jews because of their religion. Did I kill 6 million Christians? Also neo-nazi's like Hitler.

Why do you keep generalising? It's offensive that you call all pro-lifers ignorant Nazis.

[Wiztopia]

Not murder, its legal.
Not babies; Babies imply born. Fetuses or embryos are far more appropriate terms.

First off: I have never, ever heard a woman with a wanted pregnancy call the child within her a fetus or an embryo. I have heard this reference only when there was an unwanted pregnancy or there was something that caused an early termination of the pregnancy. It really depends on what they want their memory of the pregnancy to be.

Now: There is a point at which the baby is, well, a baby and no longer considered a fetus. And this is before after the baby is born.

Fixed to make the post factual.

No it isn't. Hitler killed 6 million Jews because of their religion. Did I kill 6 million Christians? Also neo-nazi's like Hitler.

Why do you keep generalising? It's offensive that you call all pro-lifers ignorant Nazis.

Jesus Christ. Read those posts over again. Not even God facepalming could show how much you didn't read the posts.

[Pesda]

Why do you keep generalising? It's offensive that you call all pro-lifers ignorant Nazis.

Jesus Christ. Read those posts over again. Not even God facepalming could show how much you didn't read the posts.

You implied that pro-lifers are neo-Nazis, and said earlier that pro-lifers were ignorant. That may not be what you were trying to say, but it looked like that.

[Obesitopia]

Its an undeniable fact that abortion is not murder.

How isn't it murder? Abortion is ending the life of a baby, just before it gets the chance to be "born." What makes it less worthy to live than anyone who's already alive? It is murder.

[Dyakovo]

How isn't it murder? Abortion is ending the life of a baby, just before it gets the chance to be "born." What makes it less worthy to live than anyone who's already alive? It is murder.

It meets none of the criteria to be murder. Its not illegal, there is no malice aforethought, and no person is killed.

[Pesda]

How isn't it murder? Abortion is ending the life of a baby, just before it gets the chance to be "born." What makes it less worthy to live than anyone who's already alive? It is murder.

and no person is killed.

But that isn't undeniable as Wiztopia said.