Christians-

[CanuckHeaven]

There is no salvation, no forgiveness. I would like to illustrate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo7QeGSQd_w

Dear Father....forgive me for watching part of that.....whatever it was.

It was marilyn manson's the reflecting god.

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

[Maurepas]

A guy holds a gun to your head and says "You have 60-70 years to bow down to me."

See, I take issue with anyone who would damn someone to eternal torment in a fiery hell because they chose not to "bow down" to him...

Thats not a choice, its extortion...

[Non Aligned States]

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

Silly Canuck. It's the reflecting god. Not reflecting god. That means you can't see god cause all you see is reflections.

[Maurepas]

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

Depends on which god is your god, I think Marilyn Manson certainly gave a good representation of this guy:

[Allbeama]

I'm of the view that one should state that "gods love" is conditional, because that's how it looks. If you are required to act a certain way to receive the benefit of his love it is not unconditional and certainly not universal. It seems god hates those who disobey and loves those who submit. And also it seems that a morality based on what god likes is arbitrary and therefore not moral, to put it another way, Judaeo-Christian values are seemingly amoral. So I equate submission to an amoral ruler's authority with tyranny.

See, He loves you unconditionally, but you have to make a choice. It's your choice to go to Hell or not, regardless of His love. It's like going to a party at a person who you went to high school with 20 years ago. If you were nice to them, they'll let you in. If you weren't then you won't get invited. Simple as that. God loves you, but you need to make that choice to believe and not go the Hell, regardless. It's up to you, not Him.

That's not much of choice though, If someone points a gun at your head and commands you to kneel before him and you do was that your own free will motivating that decision?

And yet, people still don't believe. It is a choice, because you can choose one or the other before it happens. You have ample time. Let me edit your analogy:

A guy holds a gun to your head and says "You have 60-70 years to bow down to me."

But, like I said, we shall all find out when we die. Like it says in the Bible, God is a jealous God, and will not have any Gods before him. I hate it when people say they're "Atheist". You're not Atheist. You follow something, whether it be family, money, job, etc. These are other Gods in His eyes.

And don't bother telling me that jealousy is a sin. God is allowed since He created us.

You don't get it do you? It's a choice but not a free one, its one made under duress by an authority figure, so you are subject ultimately to a will outside yourself. Any sane person given the choice of getting shot or bowing in this case would bow, so the default assumption is I should believe its in my self-interest to believe. I am submitting to you that your God doesn't really grant us much of a choice, and that his ideology is inherently authoritarian and in no way free. Your first story about humans establishes this. Adam disobeyed the will of God and was expelled from paradise. God's will essentially being that human's live in ignorance of morality. Why is that? Could it be so that we couldn't realize that morality shouldn't come from an entity that is amoral, but from our own rational minds? I am saying to you that god is essentially a cosmic dictator who desires dominion of human thought, and I argue in favor of free human thought, unshackled by the Invisible Tyrant.

[Allbeama]

Dear Father....forgive me for watching part of that.....whatever it was.

It was marilyn manson's the reflecting god.

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

Its because you have no satire sense, maybe?

[CanuckHeaven]

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

Silly Canuck. It's the reflecting god. Not reflecting god. That means you can't see god cause all you see is reflections.

Whatever....it is still a horrible was of energy.

[Allbeama]

Sorry, but I didn't see any reflection of God whatsoever.

Silly Canuck. It's the reflecting god. Not reflecting god. That means you can't see god cause all you see is reflections.

Whatever....it is still a horrible was of energy.

I was pretty much showing where I got the "no forgiveness, no salvation" thing from.

[Buxtahatche]

All you wish to do is antagonize...
But, what the hell... I'll bite.

You are WRONG about how it works.
He can't 'just say' anything and get into heaven.

The person in question MUST BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS. He must experience true sorrow and regret at his sins, and must honestly and humbly repent for them. The offender must earnestly offer himself up to God, through Jesus Christ, as the vile being that he is and beg forgiveness with honest intent to change in his heart.

Should he meet this requirement, he is just as 'saved' as any other man, even if he dies in that instant.
However, 'saying' and 'meaning' are two entirely different things, as everyone knows.

[Allbeama]

All you wish to do is antagonize...
But, what the hell... I'll bite.

You are WRONG about how it works.
He can't 'just say' anything and get into heaven.

The person in question MUST BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS. He must experience true sorrow and regret at his sins, and must honestly and humbly repent for them. The offender must earnestly offer himself up to God, through Jesus Christ, as the vile being that he is and beg forgiveness with honest intent to change in his heart.

Should he meet this requirement, he is just as 'saved' as any other man, even if he dies in that instant.
However, 'saying' and 'meaning' are two entirely different things, as everyone knows.

are you talking to me? I understand you actually have to believe, but I see that requirement on my own intellect as tyranny by a cosmic dictator. I realize the difference between saying and meaning. In fact it is this reason I feel that free thought is subjugated when you believe in God's authority. Because your own reason has to fall by the wayside and be replaced with faith, and submission.

[Clamparapa]

Let's put it this way. God made this world, He can make any rule He wants. And frankly, it's not such a bad thing to believe. I mean, if that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." You'd be like, "Sure thing man." But this'll soon turn into bickering, so I'll leave it at that. It's your choice; no one can make it for you. And although the threat sounds terrible, the reward is even better. Just believe in him, place your life in his hands, don't worry about what attacks you in life, and lead a good life by Biblical standards. You don't have to be a Saint, but at least be a decent person and follow the Commandments, among other things. That's really all there is. Going to Church and reading His Word are secondary and allow you to gain more knowledge about Him and his promises, along with a few more things. Anyways, I'll leave it to the others to bicker.

[Allbeama]

Let's put it this way. God made this world, He can make any rule He wants. And frankly, it's not such a bad thing to believe. I mean, if that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." You'd be like, "Sure thing man." But this'll soon turn into bickering, so I'll leave it at that. It's your choice; no one can make it for you. And although the threat sounds terrible, the reward is even better. Just believe in him, place your life in his hands, don't worry about what attacks you in life, and lead a good life by Biblical standards. You don't have to be a Saint, but at least be a decent person and follow the Commandments, among other things. That's really all there is. Going to Church and reading His Word are secondary and allow you to gain more knowledge about Him and his promises, along with a few more things. Anyways, I'll leave it to the others to bicker.

I would say I can be a more moral person by following my own will.
If that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." I'd be like, "give me immortality first and we have a deal!" In other words give me a reason that is real, rational, and not arbitrary for following, and I will. Until then I choose my own way.

[Maurepas]

Let's put it this way. God made this world, He can make any rule He wants. And frankly, it's not such a bad thing to believe. I mean, if that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." You'd be like, "Sure thing man." But this'll soon turn into bickering, so I'll leave it at that. It's your choice; no one can make it for you. And although the threat sounds terrible, the reward is even better. Just believe in him, place your life in his hands, don't worry about what attacks you in life, and lead a good life by Biblical standards. You don't have to be a Saint, but at least be a decent person and follow the Commandments, among other things. That's really all there is. Going to Church and reading His Word are secondary and allow you to gain more knowledge about Him and his promises, along with a few more things. Anyways, I'll leave it to the others to bicker.

I would say I can be a more moral person by following my own will.
If that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." I'd be like, "give me immortality first and we have a deal!" In other words give me a reason that is real, rational, and not arbitrary for following, and I will. Until then I choose my own way.

Im not sure Id take that choice even then, its not exactly an "amazing, eternal life" if he's always got that gun to your head...

[Allbeama]

Let's put it this way. God made this world, He can make any rule He wants. And frankly, it's not such a bad thing to believe. I mean, if that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." You'd be like, "Sure thing man." But this'll soon turn into bickering, so I'll leave it at that. It's your choice; no one can make it for you. And although the threat sounds terrible, the reward is even better. Just believe in him, place your life in his hands, don't worry about what attacks you in life, and lead a good life by Biblical standards. You don't have to be a Saint, but at least be a decent person and follow the Commandments, among other things. That's really all there is. Going to Church and reading His Word are secondary and allow you to gain more knowledge about Him and his promises, along with a few more things. Anyways, I'll leave it to the others to bicker.

I would say I can be a more moral person by following my own will.
If that guy with the gun said, "Bow to me and I'll give you an amazing, eternal life." I'd be like, "give me immortality first and we have a deal!" In other words give me a reason that is real, rational, and not arbitrary for following, and I will. Until then I choose my own way.

Im not sure Id take that choice even then, its not exactly an "amazing, eternal life" if he's always got that gun to your head...

That's a good point. I would have to say take the gun off the table, too, because knowing those omnipotent types its a gun that kills immortals.

I want to add as well, that I see God/Satan as a gun built by men thousands of years ago to subjugate the minds and wills of their fellow humans, and not that God is holding Hell as a gun, but that could be kind of a box within a box...

[Maurepas]

That's a good point. I would have to say take the gun off the table, too, because knowing those omnipotent types its a gun that kills immortals.

I want to add as well, that I see God/Satan as a gun built by men thousands of years ago to subjugate the minds and wills of their fellow humans, and not that God is holding Hell as a gun, but that could be kind of a box within a box...

Prettymuch until we both have a gun and are on an even footing in this relationship, Im just not trusting enough to take shit...

Not that any of it is factual to begin with anyway,

[Allbeama]

That's a good point. I would have to say take the gun off the table, too, because knowing those omnipotent types its a gun that kills immortals.

I want to add as well, that I see God/Satan as a gun built by men thousands of years ago to subjugate the minds and wills of their fellow humans, and not that God is holding Hell as a gun, but that could be kind of a box within a box...

Prettymuch until we both have a gun and are on an even footing in this relationship, Im just not trusting enough to take shit...

Not that any of it is factual to begin with anyway,

You keep adding things to my viewpoint...I would like a God Gun too...and it is all fictional anyway...too bad an awesome God Gun would be a fun toy.

[Colonic Immigration]

Have no idea what you are talking about. I don't really care either.

[Anti-Social Darwinism]

Has the "Christian's are filth" guy been warned or anything? Because that was not cool.

He's a standard troll. He was calling members of the military trash on another thread. If he continues his trollish ways, I'm sure there'll be modly action.

[Colonic Immigration]

Has the "Christian's are filth" guy been warned or anything? Because that was not cool.

"They're all trash".

[Dyakovo]

They can't just mumble "Lord forgive me" before being blown away by police. You've got to really mean it.

He's God, he knows when you don't 'mean' it.

aye, its a prayer not a magical incantation.

I think The Godly Nations has been reading a little too much Left Behind, where that prayer pretty much is a magical incantation.

What, really, is the difference?

[Allbeama]

Have no idea what you are talking about. I don't really care either.

To what are you referring at the moment? Specifically what post?

[Colonic Immigration]

Have no idea what you are talking about. I don't really care either.

To what are you referring at the moment? Specifically what post?

The OP

[Coahuilha]

What the hell is sola fata? Get your terminology straight.

Scripture is extremely clear that all sins may be forgiven. If the plea is sincere, the sins will be forgiven.

[Allbeama]

Have no idea what you are talking about. I don't really care either.

To what are you referring at the moment? Specifically what post?

The OP

what happened is TGN walked into a wild west saloon started a fight and then proceeded to back slowly out of the bar and let the ensuing violence and chaos follow its own natural course most likely for his own amusement.

[Domain Gehenna]

A guy holds a gun to your head and says "You have 60-70 years to bow down to me."

See, I take issue with anyone who would damn someone to eternal torment in a fiery hell because they chose not to "bow down" to him...

Thats not a choice, its extortion...

I hear that, and I'm glad someone else brought that to the table. Its like telling your child that if they don't love you, you are going to flush their cat down the toilet.