Abortion(do guys have a say?)

[Hellenic Protectorates]

men only have to pay for their actual children. they get rights to their actual children too (at least i dont think a woman can force a man to pay for the abortion).

And if they didn't want it, they still have to pay for it
(cue "should kept his dick in his pants" )

Or in a box.

...amirite?

[Aesthetica]

No, I'm stating fact. Civil rights are handed down by the State to the people, and the State does not view the unborn as people. Thus, they do not have civil rights.

And by "stating a fact", you're making an Appeal to Law. You're merely relabeling it. The State doesn't "give" people rights. That's ridiculous. People have rights as a fact of the universe. Ever heard of the "Natural Rights of Man"?

Have I heard of the 'Natural Rights' of man, yeah I have.

Do I believe in them, hell no, because they don't exist, rights are an artificial concept created by human societies, not some unalterable fact of nature.

Taking an innocuous word, and murdering it's actual meaning by adding fallacious capitalization in order to turn it into some 'Universal Truth' (there's two classic examples for you right there) based on some 'Higher Authority' (and two more) is just some arrogant pseudo-intellectual way of creating a meaningless noise that pretends to be a real word, for use in propaganda, usually for particularly nauseating causes that can't stand up on their own two feet...

"It is my Natural Right to fuck bitches and make them have babies, without fear of the dirty ho's aborting my children, who will honor and obey me once they are too old for child support and I tell them I am their dad. I hold this Truth to be self evident..."

You talk about giving a fetus the deciding say in abort/dont abort, of course that means waiting until it's old enough to have learned to communicate and has developed enough reasoning capacity to understand the question and formulate an answer, so what, 10-15 years, which makes the question moot doesn't it, thus an auto-win for the rightwing-fruitcake/religious-fruitcake woman hater anti-choice alliance...

Libertarian not Religious, ok so you are a right wing woman hater rather than a religious woman hater, wow, that makes a BIG difference.

Men get an equal say in the decision the day they agree to have a rubber bladder surgically implanted into their guts for 9 months during the pregnancy, that is steadily inflated with saline, then have it cut out of them whole and still inflated when she goes into labour...

Half the say for half the labour (pun intended).

0/10 for pseudo intellectual word murdering fallacious fruitcake-alliance argument effort, must try very very much harder...

[GeneralHaNor]

And if they didn't want it, they still have to pay for it
(cue "should kept his dick in his pants" )

yup

because support is the right of the child.

If you can't be ethically consistent, don't bother

"Kept his dick in his pants" is as much and equally fallacious to "Kept her legs shut"

[Jedi8246]

The man has equal right.

If he is in a committed relationship with the woman, his opinion should be taken very seriously by her, and hers by him. The problem with this kind of thread is, people start talking as if the man and the woman involved have no history and have met exactly once, when they had sex and she became pregnant. Ultimately the decision should be hers, but of course he has input.

In this day and age, the circumstance you described is getting more and more common.

I think in marriages, this is a non-issue.

[Ashmoria]

yup

because support is the right of the child.

If you can't be ethically consistent, don't bother

"Kept his dick in his pants" is as much and equally fallacious to "Kept her legs shut"

*Shrug*

im not interested in children being denied the support of both parents.

[Farnhamia]

If he is in a committed relationship with the woman, his opinion should be taken very seriously by her, and hers by him. The problem with this kind of thread is, people start talking as if the man and the woman involved have no history and have met exactly once, when they had sex and she became pregnant. Ultimately the decision should be hers, but of course he has input.

In this day and age, the circumstance you described is getting more and more common.

I think in marriages, this is a non-issue.

The key word being "think." You should get out more.

[The Rich Port]

If he is in a committed relationship with the woman, his opinion should be taken very seriously by her, and hers by him. The problem with this kind of thread is, people start talking as if the man and the woman involved have no history and have met exactly once, when they had sex and she became pregnant. Ultimately the decision should be hers, but of course he has input.

In this day and age, the circumstance you described is getting more and more common.

I think in marriages, this is a non-issue.

Statistics, plox.

Before you say thread-breaking crap like that, you should back it up with SOMETHING.

I'll even take laughable sources.

Note: this is more for retaining our sanity in continuing to debate and will not count as an actual source.

[The Gregorach]

Who ever said I was sane or reasonable?

That was the joke xD

[Jedi8246]

In the 18th Century, this was all very true.

In this day and age, technology has made it where that is a rare exception, not the rule.

To those that can afford it.

In this particular day and age, it might not be as common as you might think.

I have family in medical fields. It is common as I think it is.

[Jedi8246]

The man has equal right.

dont you mean that men SHOULD have an equal right in your opinion?

in reality men have no right in the decision to have an abortion.

Yes they do.

[GeneralHaNor]

To those that can afford it.

In this particular day and age, it might not be as common as you might think.

I have family in medical fields. It is common as I think it is.

Wow, Appeal to Authority Via Third Party
I haven't seen that one in ages

[Newmoonrising]

In this day and age, the circumstance you described is getting more and more common.

I think in marriages, this is a non-issue.

Statistics, plox.

Before you say thread-breaking crap like that, you should back it up with SOMETHING.

I'll even take laughable sources.

Note: this is more for retaining our sanity in continuing to debate.

It's a burden on both. One has to prove that in general pregnancy is extremely debilitating and death of women because of childbirth is commonplace and the other has to show that it is not the case.

[The Gregorach]

Who ever said I was sane or reasonable?

I wasn't... I was being... Nvm.

And what's that?

[GeneralHaNor]

dont you mean that men SHOULD have an equal right in your opinion?

in reality men have no right in the decision to have an abortion.

Yes they do.

In which country, cause I'm sure if I said, "Your gettin an abortion, I don't want to be a father" and she said "Fuck you, I'm having this kid, and your paying for it"
Guess what happpens?
She has the Kid, and I pay for it.

That's fucked up, but that's reality.

[The Rich Port]

To those that can afford it.

In this particular day and age, it might not be as common as you might think.

I have family in medical fields. It is common as I think it is.

Shit, so do I.

THEY keep telling me how the biggest shock people get after having a baby is the bill for having one.

In-home births are becoming more common than hospital ones.

[Jedi8246]

yup

because support is the right of the child.

If you can't be ethically consistent, don't bother

"Kept his dick in his pants" is as much and equally fallacious to "Kept her legs shut"

I enjoy you. You make good points. Well done.

[Jedi8246]

Yes they do.

In which country, cause I'm sure if I said, "Your gettin an abortion, I don't want to be a father" and she said "Fuck you, I'm having this kid, and your paying for it"
Guess what happpens?
She has the Kid, and I pay for it.

That's fucked up, but that's reality.

I know that's reality. Just because the government says so, doesn't mean his right doesn't exist.

[GeneralHaNor]

In which country, cause I'm sure if I said, "Your gettin an abortion, I don't want to be a father" and she said "Fuck you, I'm having this kid, and your paying for it"
Guess what happpens?
She has the Kid, and I pay for it.

That's fucked up, but that's reality.

I know that's reality. Just because the government says so, doesn't mean his right doesn't exist.

As much as I love a good natural rights throwdown (and the absence of legal rights doesn't mean I don't have them, it simply means oppressors exist) it doesn't really help this debate

[The Rich Port]

Yes they do.

In which country, cause I'm sure if I said, "Your gettin an abortion, I don't want to be a father" and she said "Fuck you, I'm having this kid, and your paying for it"
Guess what happpens?
She has the Kid, and I pay for it.

That's fucked up, but that's reality.

Granted, I think dead-beat dad laws are a little weird...

But I'd be surprised if there has ever been a state-mandated abortion in the U.S.

[Farnhamia]

To those that can afford it.

In this particular day and age, it might not be as common as you might think.

I have family in medical fields. It is common as I think it is.

Sure, honey, and I'm Marie of Romania. But you're right, it's as common as you think it is.

[Arkinesia]

Then how is that right granted?

A granted right is not a right, it's a privilege, in this case you continue to have the privilege of existing, until your mother says otherwise.

So then would follow the question of whether or not a right to privacy is actually a natural inherent right like life, food, or water, and whether or not such a right extends to a potentially independent life.

To which I would say you'd have to jump through some pretty wacky hoops.

[Jedi8246]

I have family in medical fields. It is common as I think it is.

Shit, so do I.

THEY keep telling me how the biggest shock people get after having a baby is the bill for having one.

In-home births are becoming more common than hospital ones.

Maybe you should, oh I don't know, read your articles before saying they say things. Source I found within the article, proving you completely wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf

[Jedi8246]

I know that's reality. Just because the government says so, doesn't mean his right doesn't exist.

As much as I love a good natural rights throwdown (and the absence of legal rights doesn't mean I don't have them, it simply means oppressors exist) it doesn't really help this debate

No it doesn't. I suppose.

[GeneralHaNor]

In which country, cause I'm sure if I said, "Your gettin an abortion, I don't want to be a father" and she said "Fuck you, I'm having this kid, and your paying for it"
Guess what happpens?
She has the Kid, and I pay for it.

That's fucked up, but that's reality.

Granted, I think dead-beat dad laws are a little weird...

But I'd be surprised if there has ever been a state-mandated abortion in the U.S.

I'd be the first in line to call a "State-Mandated abortion" to be an unacceptable tyranny, of the "We need to burn this shit down right now" variety. I'm in know way advocate that the state be granted the power to abort against a mother or fathers will, in anyone's name.

I support the paper abortion, if the potential father makes it clear he doesn't want a child, and you insist on having it anyway, that's you declaring you don't need his support.

And I don't want to here about how support is the childs right, my father paid my mother not me, and she spent that money on booze and crack.

[GeneralHaNor]

A granted right is not a right, it's a privilege, in this case you continue to have the privilege of existing, until your mother says otherwise.

So then would follow the question of whether or not a right to privacy is actually a natural inherent right like life, food, or water, and whether or not such a right extends to a potentially independent life.

To which I would say you'd have to jump through some pretty wacky hoops.

Life, food, water, are only available to those that can afford them.
My water bill was pretty high last month.