Abortion(do guys have a say?)

[Galloism]

but he did show how it IS equitable because men also abandon babies under safe haven laws.

Shhh! Don't let reality intrude on his little rant..

Rant?

Hmm, not seeing a rant, really.

If informing people about reality is a "rant" I guess...

[Ookawauso]

Because it is the most moral one, and in fact, as far as I know every mainstream religion forbids murder except under special conditions, so because neither of us has taken a survey, or searched for one I will assume i have the majority.

its moral TO YOU.

for the majority of american its not immoral to decide that they dont want to bring a child into the world right now. the vast majority of US abortions are done at under 10 weeks. no harm/no foul.

the now dead feotus is harmed

[Dyakovo]

Violating a woman's bodily autonomy for the sake of a mindless clump of cells is moral?

Not killing a person is moral.

So you agree that vilolating a woman's bodily autonomy is not moral/ethical?

[Ashmoria]

its moral TO YOU.

for the majority of american its not immoral to decide that they dont want to bring a child into the world right now. the vast majority of US abortions are done at under 10 weeks. no harm/no foul.

the now dead feotus is harmed

no

it was never alive. it felt no pain. its growth was stopped before it ever came close to being a baby.

[Erinkita]

Violating a woman's bodily autonomy for the sake of a mindless clump of cells is moral?

Not killing a person is moral.

Since a person isn't killed in abortion, that's neither here nor there.
You gonna answer the question?

[Ookawauso]

Ethically justifiable means that it can be justified morally.
"Justifiable means having the ability to be justified" - worst definition i have ever seen.

What is wrong with that definition?

Kerr nonlinearity means Kerr nonlinearity. Do you now understand what Kerr nonlinearity is without using any other source?

[GeneralHaNor]

the now dead feotus is harmed

no

it was never alive. it felt no pain. its growth was stopped before it ever came close to being a baby.

That really depends on when you killed it, nerve endings start attaching to the brain at around 12 weeks

[Tekania]

If it helps I can provide examples of fathers abandoning their children at safe-haven's as well. But you know, it really all just a racket to extort money from us poor poor poor men.

Burn that strawman. Burn it good.

I never said it was a racket - just inequitable. Do try to address the points I've actually raised, rather than ones you make up on the fly.

Oh, I won't doubt there is some inequality to it all. But then, I don't expect things which are inherently unequal to be equal.

And the racket jibe wans't directed at you , just so you know.

[Dyakovo]

its moral TO YOU.

for the majority of american its not immoral to decide that they dont want to bring a child into the world right now. the vast majority of US abortions are done at under 10 weeks. no harm/no foul.

the now dead feotus is harmed

So? When you get a cancerous tumor removed, the now dead tumor is harmed...
Both are human, neither is a person.

[Ashmoria]

no

it was never alive. it felt no pain. its growth was stopped before it ever came close to being a baby.

That really depends on when you killed it, nerve endings start attaching to the brain at around 12 weeks

but most abortions are done earlier than that.

[Dyakovo]

no

it was never alive. it felt no pain. its growth was stopped before it ever came close to being a baby.

That really depends on when you killed it, nerve endings start attaching to the brain at around 12 weeks

They were specifically referring to a foetus at 10 weeks...

[Erinkita]

Sorry. Typo.
You're the one being kept alive.
I'm serious. You obviously have no problem with one person temporarily using, with often few permanent negative, another's body for their own physical benefit to stay alive without the other's consent.

I may agree to that statemeant if all it means is (in the reverse where i would keep you alive) me stuck in a room conected to you via some machine with a few wires, and people brought me food ect.
however, again that situation is not plausable

Whether you would agree to do it or not is irrelevent. People should not be forced into a situation whereby their body is used for another's benefit without their consent.

[Ookawauso]

1) Oh, well thats all cleared up then. I dont need any evidence at all.not even a definition youjust made up
2) AGAIN FOETUS' DO NOT ATTACK PEOPLE, DON'T COMMIT CRIMES, AND POLICE DON'T NEED TO KILL THEM IN THEIR LINE OF DUTY SO IT IS NOT LEGALLY SPEAKING JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE.
3) Oh, sorry i misunderstood. although as a related side note a person can be a problem, but are not, themselves A problem. although as an unrelated side note my favourite animal is a leopard.

1: Personhood
2: Pregnancy can cause irreparable harm to a woman's body, thus it can be said that a foetus is "attacking" the woman. Although this was a side point not directly related to the discussion at hand. You said "and if it was a person (which it is) no one has the right to kill it." I was showing you that you were wrong in your statement that someone never has a right to kill another person.

1) you said a feotus does not meat the criteria, what criteria?
2) the feotus does not do it intentionally, and in fact most of it is done by the womans own body (i think).
You were showing i was wrong with an incorrect statemeant you have yet to concede was wrong?

[Ookawauso]

3) Oh, sorry i misunderstood. although as a related side note a person can be a problem, but are not, themselves A problem. although as an unrelated side note my favourite animal is a leopard.

no really, people ARE problems.

the thing is that with actual people you can do something (or nothing) about it.

so if your husband beats you, you can divorce him. if your brother is a manipulative asshole you can stop supporting him and let him end up living under an overpass (madonna).

Gramatically you are still wrong, however if you realy beleive that whatever, it your choice and harms no one.

[Galloism]

Burn that strawman. Burn it good.

I never said it was a racket - just inequitable. Do try to address the points I've actually raised, rather than ones you make up on the fly.

Oh, I won't doubt there is some inequality to it all. But then, I don't expect things which are inherently unequal to be equal.

And the racket jibe wans't directed at you , just so you know.

Well, I don't expect biological equality, as that's... Pretty well impossible with current technology.

I do, however, wish the law have equal treatment without regard to things like race, financial standing, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

I'm a hopeless idealist. What can I say?

[Dyakovo]

1: Personhood
2: Pregnancy can cause irreparable harm to a woman's body, thus it can be said that a foetus is "attacking" the woman. Although this was a side point not directly related to the discussion at hand. You said "and if it was a person (which it is) no one has the right to kill it." I was showing you that you were wrong in your statement that someone never has a right to kill another person.

1) you said a feotus does not meat the criteria, what criteria?
2) the feotus does not do it intentionally, and in fact most of it is done by the womans own body (i think).
You were showing i was wrong with an incorrect statemeant you have yet to concede was wrong?

1: I already listed them, but I'm feeling generous today... So I'll provide them again...

The ability to act in the world.
The capacity for introspection and the ability to reconcile oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.
Having a notion of past and future.

2: Intentional or not it happens. Pregnancy carries with it some very real risks that no woman should be forced to undergo against her will.

[GeneralHaNor]

That really depends on when you killed it, nerve endings start attaching to the brain at around 12 weeks

They were specifically referring to a foetus at 10 weeks...

I was addressing only that line, and only that, the things before are in material
At some point "it" will feel pain, intense pain the likes I which can only be imagined.
I'm not gonna quibble with definitions, as that seems pointless, alive/not alive, Person/not person, Baby/Parasite...all seems rather irrelevant to me.

[Ookawauso]

Not killing a person is moral.

So you agree that vilolating a woman's bodily autonomy is not moral/ethical?

CONFUSING ME!
please if you really think its a good point spell it out to me.
how is the woman being violated
and what do youmean autonomy? i understand it to mean something like
'the capacity of a rational individual to make an informed, un-coerced decision'

[Ookawauso]

the now dead feotus is harmed

no

it was never alive. it felt no pain. its growth was stopped before it ever came close to being a baby.

every cell was alive therefor so was it.

ok so i'll just give some fatel poison tonight, but you wont feel any pain, so its alright.

[Osirian Systems]

Replying to the original question: Yes, it is a woman's choice whether she goes to her doctors and asks for an abortion but it's also my choice whether I go in there with a coathanger and tear shit up.

[Ookawauso]

Not killing a person is moral.

Since a person isn't killed in abortion, that's neither here nor there.
You gonna answer the question?

yes a person is killed thats what abortion is

[Erinkita]

Replying to the original question: Yes, it is a woman's choice whether she goes to her doctors and asks for an abortion but it's also my choice whether I go in there with a coathanger and tear shit up.

Charming.

[Ookawauso]

the now dead feotus is harmed

So? When you get a cancerous tumor removed, the now dead tumor is harmed...
Both are human, neither is a person.

unlike a feotus a tumor is likely to kill you.
and the tumor will never become self aware

[Erinkita]

Since a person isn't killed in abortion, that's neither here nor there.
You gonna answer the question?

yes a person is killed thats what abortion is

The criteria for personhood has already been given to you twice. At this point, you're just putting your hands over your ears and going LALALALALALALALA.
I notice you still haven't answered my question.

[GeneralHaNor]

Replying to the original question: Yes, it is a woman's choice whether she goes to her doctors and asks for an abortion but it's also my choice whether I go in there with a coathanger and tear shit up.

that's only slightly less dangerous then letting them "trip" down a flight of stairs