Abortion(do guys have a say?)

[Eridanuus]

I would just like to say there have been some really interesting arguments made, and points raised. Lets just continue to make sure to debate the topic then slipping into a firefighting troll contest.

It would be devastating to have an abortion though I assume most people wouldnt make the decision lightly without feeling terrible about it. With such a burden and still continuing with the act you would assume it is done mostly for 'good' reasons.

[Norstal]

I would just like to say there have been some really interesting arguments made, and points raised. Lets just continue to make sure to debate the topic then slipping into a firefighting troll contest.

It would be devastating to have an abortion though I assume most people wouldnt make the decision lightly without feeling terrible about it. With such a burden and still continuing with the act you would assume it is done mostly for 'good' reasons.

It would be more devastating NOT to have an abortion.

[Tahar Joblis]

so as i say your "solution" isnt "fair" at all.

the woman's solution--have a real abortion--removes both her and the father's detriments. the man's solution--a paper abortion-- removes his detriments and increases hers.

"Increases hers" only inasmuch as it doesn't permit her to bill an unwilling man for one sixth of his income for eighteen years for having had sex with her.

She still has the option herself to opt out of parenthood subsequent to birth; and she still, adding only "paper abortion" mechanisms, has greater control over the scenario than the biological father does.

[Tahar Joblis]

Is it in his body?

That is one of the worst arguments...ever. Women think that they can force a man to pay child support, but then they turn around and use this argument to support abortion rights. This is one of the main reasons our society is so screwed up right now. It is now acceptable to accept responsibility when it is convenient, and when it isn't, just go to court and get someone else to pay for it. The best idea I ever heard came from a woman and went like this:
If a woman gets pregnant, she should legally be forced to tell the father and allow him to make all decisions jointly concerning the child. If the father doesn't want anything to do with the child, then two things happen. He must either pay for the abortion, or he can have no access to the child after he/she is born. Simultaneously, since the father clearly wants nothing to do with the child, he would not have to pay a single dime in child support. Ever. The woman made the decision to have a child and keep it, knowing that the man doesn't want a child, and she should be the one to bear all costs and reap all the rewards of child-rearing. Additionally, if a man finds out that a woman aborted his child without his consent, she should have to pay him 18 years of court-ordered child support. As this individual pointed out, women are always complaining about equal rights, but when it comes to children, they demand, and receive, special rights. The time has come to level the playing field.

I suppose you would also want to prosecute women who miscarry?

... trying to reverse the financial aspects of the scenario by having women pay child support for having an abortion instead of men paying child support because women failed to have abortions doesn't make it any more fair.

[Alexanderoga]

Whats with this irrational fear of being turned into an incubator slave woman?

[Wiztopia]

Whats with this irrational fear of being turned into an incubator slave woman?

What's with this irrational sexism where people want to tell women what to do with their own body?

[Alexanderoga]

Whats with this irrational fear of being turned into an incubator slave woman?

What's with this irrational sexism where people want to tell women what to do with their own body?

There could exist plenty of ways to handle a pregnancy in which one party is unwilling to become a parent without forced abortions or incubators.
A woman's body is her own. A man's money and dna should be too. These aren't mutually exclusive.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

There could exist plenty of ways to handle a pregnancy in which one party is unwilling to become a parent without forced abortions or incubators.

Do any of these allow the women to stop the use of her uterus whenever she chooses?

[Shadowlandistan]

Guys should NOT have a say either way because it's not our bodies. Abortion rights should be granted only to women because they're the ones carrying the burden of child birth (or abortion).

[Khelshar]

I found worlds best argument FOR abortion:
Abortion is just the POSSIBILITY for having it, in case you need to remove the child. It is not like you MUST have an abortion, it is just the possibility to do it.

[Alexanderoga]

There could exist plenty of ways to handle a pregnancy in which one party is unwilling to become a parent without forced abortions or incubators.

Do any of these allow the women to stop the use of her uterus whenever she chooses?

Yeah. That's pretty much what I said, or do you mean can she, by sheer force of will, abort the fetus at any moment?

[Glorious Freedonia]

Men do not have a say but they should. Regardless of all of the psychobabble or what not the consent to doing that nasty little activity of vaginal sex certainly does not equal consent to becoming a father or that such consent should make a man obligated to support a love child. However, although I am emotionally sympathetic to a man whose wife wants an abortion when he wants her to have the baby, I really do not think that we should do anything about it other than like give him a hug or a card or something.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Do any of these allow the women to stop the use of her uterus whenever she chooses?

Yeah. That's pretty much what I said, or do you mean can she, by sheer force of will, abort the fetus at any moment?

I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying at all. How can one handle a pregnancy in which the mother is unwilling to be a participant without abortion or incubators?

[Wiztopia]

What's with this irrational sexism where people want to tell women what to do with their own body?

There could exist plenty of ways to handle a pregnancy in which one party is unwilling to become a parent without forced abortions or incubators.
A woman's body is her own. A man's money and dna should be too. These aren't mutually exclusive.

A man does not own a woman's body. He especially does not own the fetus.

[Tekania]

There could exist plenty of ways to handle a pregnancy in which one party is unwilling to become a parent without forced abortions or incubators.
A woman's body is her own. A man's money and dna should be too. These aren't mutually exclusive.

A man's money and dna is his own.... That's how we find out who the child's male biological parent is and ensure the child is receiving care from his/her biological parents.

[Alexanderoga]

Yeah. That's pretty much what I said, or do you mean can she, by sheer force of will, abort the fetus at any moment?

I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying at all. How can one handle a pregnancy in which the mother is unwilling to be a participant without abortion or incubators?

FORCED being the keyword in that sentence. A man only would want the women carrying his child to have an abortion if he did not want to become a father. If he were released of all parental rights and responsibility then there would be no issue. I think other posters on this topic have called this a paper abortion. I don't really know.
A man who doesn't want his unborn child aborted could come to some agreement with the child bearer to have her carry through with the pregnancy and relinquish parental rights and responsibilities afterwards. This agreement would likely entail an exorbitant amount of monetary compensation for the child bearer's services and could only occur WITH HER CONSENT. This probably wouldn't happen often but the man is given a chance to appeal to the women in some way and body sovereignty is maintained.
it would be a nice change of pace to see a man paying child support to have brought a child into this world that he desperately wanted rather than paying a women to take care of a child that neither truly wanted. I also think if neither want to keep it than the cost should be split evenly for abortions or fees incurred during adoptions or what have you.
This isn't a perfect solution and will likely be picked to pieces, but the idea is the man has some rights and the woman can't be made to do anything.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

FORCED being the keyword in that sentence. A man only would want the women carrying his child to have an abortion if he did not want to become a father. If he were released of all parental rights and responsibility then there would be no issue. I think other posters on this topic have called this a paper abortion. I don't really know.

Totally ignores the child that route.

[Alexanderoga]

FORCED being the keyword in that sentence. A man only would want the women carrying his child to have an abortion if he did not want to become a father. If he were released of all parental rights and responsibility then there would be no issue. I think other posters on this topic have called this a paper abortion. I don't really know.

Totally ignores the child that route.

If a woman without a willing partner is prepared to be a mother she should be prepared to be a single mother. Whether or not someone is unfit to be a parent is an entirely new argument.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Totally ignores the child that route.

If a woman without a willing partner is prepared to be a mother she should be prepared to be a single mother. Whether or not someone is unfit to be a parent is an entirely new argument.

Yeah. Like I said.

[Alexanderoga]

If a woman without a willing partner is prepared to be a mother she should be prepared to be a single mother. Whether or not someone is unfit to be a parent is an entirely new argument.

Yeah. Like I said.

Then we agree?

[The Burgundy Plains]

If he makes her have the baby, the son of a bitch had better stay with her or raise the kid himself.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Yeah. Like I said.

Then we agree?

Nope. Unless you believe, as I do, that the whole paper abortion deal is complete balls.

[Alexanderoga]

Then we agree?

Nope. Unless you believe, as I do, that the whole paper abortion deal is complete balls.

darn

Why is it balls?

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Nope. Unless you believe, as I do, that the whole paper abortion deal is complete balls.

darn

Why is it balls?

Ignores the welfare of the child, acts as financial coercion on the woman, and is not an equaliser at all

[Alexanderoga]

darn

Why is it balls?

Ignores the welfare of the child, acts as financial coercion on the woman, and is not an equaliser at all

If the child is unable to be cared for properly than the mother doesn't have to give birth. People have babies that shouldn't. Taking away the right to breed is the only sure fire solution to that problem and no one wants that.
It is an equalizer. Both men and women would have the ability to choose to be a parent. Not sure what you mean by financial coercion.