Did Pres. Bush fake his idiocy?

[Des-Bal]

That torture was needed to extract information that might've saved the lives of thousands of Americans. I'd say it was worth it.

Torture is hilariously inefficient.

It might've prevented aliens from stealing Tom Sellecks moustache, we don't know because they won't release documents.

[Ashmoria]

Yes. That's the difference between a rule-of-law democracy and *insert your favourite psycho dictatorship here*.

That torture was needed to extract information that might've saved the lives of thousands of Americans. I'd say it was worth it.

too bad thats not the case.

it would be nice if we had gotten something for our evil behavior. but no, torture doesnt work.

... it didnt even work this time in the only way it does work--getting false confessions. they tried to get the detainees to tell them that 9/11 was connected to iraq and it failed.

[Der Teutoniker]

I must say before I go on, that I am no way of supporter of Pres. Bush and I believe that he and members of his administration needs to be charged and put on trial.

On trial for what?

To answer the primary question, he certainly was not an idiot. You can say he made a bunch of dumb choices, but that he made unpopular decisions is not necessarily a sign of low-intellect. Don't get me wrong, the man was awful in front of a camera. Not a great orator definitely. That is also not a sign of low-intellect, however.

He was unpopular, and not a great public speaker. And that's why most people think he was half-braindead.

Evil mastermind? lolno

[San-Silvacian]

So he successfully trolled his political opponents?

Just like how Reagan trolled the Russians in the Cold War.

[Des-Bal]

Just like how Reagan trolled the Russians in the Cold War.

Trickle down economics might be bull but the man could flamebait like a boss.

[Risottia]

Yes. That's the difference between a rule-of-law democracy and *insert your favourite psycho dictatorship here*.

That torture was needed to extract information that might've saved the lives of thousands of Americans. I'd say it was worth it.

I notice that even you have to use a "might have" for the results of torture.

So you would use actually an illegal and cruel method, in order to achieve a hypotetical positive outcome.
It's a Machiavellian fail.

[Kuwat]

He was and still is a complete idiot.

[Aquophia]

Anyone who says torture doesnt work clearly hasnt heard of this guy.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
What he revealed.

information about the four airplanes hijacked on 11 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers.

Photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers

A document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.


images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.
transcripts of chat sessions belonging to at least one of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.

three letters from Osama bin Laden

spreadsheets that describe money assistance to families of known al Qaeda members

a letter to the United Arab Emirates threatening attack if their government continued to help the United States

a document that summarized operational procedures and training requirements of an al Qaeda cell

a list of killed and wounded al Qaeda militants.

Normally, im not for torture, but these are not the kind of people you can just do the good cop bad cop routine on for information. Asking them nicely to disclose information to a cause they have sworn thier lives to simply wont work.

[Ashmoria]

Anyone who says torture doesnt work clearly hasnt heard of this guy.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
What he revealed.

information about the four airplanes hijacked on 11 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers.

Photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers

A document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.


images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.
transcripts of chat sessions belonging to at least one of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.

three letters from Osama bin Laden

spreadsheets that describe money assistance to families of known al Qaeda members

a letter to the United Arab Emirates threatening attack if their government continued to help the United States

a document that summarized operational procedures and training requirements of an al Qaeda cell

a list of killed and wounded al Qaeda militants.

Normally, im not for torture, but these are not the kind of people you can just do the good cop bad cop routine on for information. Asking them nicely to disclose information to a cause they have sworn thier lives to simply wont work.

none of that was gained under torture.

[Tagmatium]

I reckon it was mostly an act, coupled with bad speech writers.

[Aquophia]

Anyone who says torture doesnt work clearly hasnt heard of this guy.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
What he revealed.

information about the four airplanes hijacked on 11 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers.

Photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers

A document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.


images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.
transcripts of chat sessions belonging to at least one of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.

three letters from Osama bin Laden

spreadsheets that describe money assistance to families of known al Qaeda members

a letter to the United Arab Emirates threatening attack if their government continued to help the United States

a document that summarized operational procedures and training requirements of an al Qaeda cell

a list of killed and wounded al Qaeda militants.

Normally, im not for torture, but these are not the kind of people you can just do the good cop bad cop routine on for information. Asking them nicely to disclose information to a cause they have sworn thier lives to simply wont work.

none of that was gained under torture.

Sorry, wrong part. Thought the list seemed small. Its its in the article under list of confessions. He was waterboarded about 183 times.

[Der Teutoniker]

He was and still is a complete idiot.

A sound conclusion.

Based on... what exactly?

[Ashmoria]

none of that was gained under torture.

Sorry, wrong part. Thought the list seemed small. Its its in the article under list of confessions. He was waterboarded about 183 times.

yeah he was. which in and of itself is a clue that torture doesnt work.

much of that info was already known before we ever picked up KSM and the much was gotten after we picked him up and before he was tortured. nothing useful was obtained from waterboarding him and nothing on that list was "ticking time bomb" stuff.

in any case, the question was "what should george bush be tried for" and torture is a crime no matter how justified you might think it is.

[Der Teutoniker]

in any case, the question was "what should george bush be tried for" and torture is a crime no matter how justified you might think it is.

Was that legally the case when he "committed" that "crime"?

Legally, that's a pretty big distinction.

[Risottia]

He was and still is a complete idiot.

A sound conclusion.

Based on... what exactly?

Not being able to tell the inhabitants of a NATO country from a hair dye brand might be a hint.

[Der Teutoniker]

Not being able to tell the inhabitants of a NATO country from a hair dye brand might be a hint.

I almost gave a pretty snarky response - but I can respect the humor in the post.

Man he was a bad speaker, though. Hilarious, but, poor guy.

[Ashmoria]

in any case, the question was "what should george bush be tried for" and torture is a crime no matter how justified you might think it is.

Was that legally the case when he "committed" that "crime"?

Legally, that's a pretty big distinction.

well i suppose the courts would decide whether or not he is guilty but since he has made public statements saying that he personally authorized torture that would meet the test of whether or not he ought to be charged.


....

was WHAT legally the case? that torture is an international war crime? its been illegal for many many years.

[Des-Bal]

I almost gave a pretty snarky response - but I can respect the humor in the post.

Man he was a bad speaker, though. Hilarious, but, poor guy.

If you judged everyone's intelligence based on how they act when they address everyone in the united states talk show hosts would be the smartest people on earth and we all know that isn't true.

[Risottia]

Not being able to tell the inhabitants of a NATO country from a hair dye brand might be a hint.

I almost gave a pretty snarky response - but I can respect the humor in the post.

Whew.

Man he was a bad speaker, though. Hilarious, but, poor guy.

His speeches contained a worrying amount of non-sequiturs, though. I was so much driven by his own ideology (and by that "plain anti-intellectual American" image) that he looked quite impervious to logics.

[Kazomal]

Either way, he sure faked two elections.

[Risottia]

Either way, he sure faked two elections.

OR someone did that job for him.
Running for PotUS doesn't exactly involve JUST the candidates...

[Seibertron]

He wanted to become unpopular? By pretending to be stupid

[Der Teutoniker]

If you judged everyone's intelligence based on how they act when they address everyone in the united states talk show hosts would be the smartest people on earth and we all know that isn't true.

I'm sorry, I wasn't saying that at all.

In a previous post I made it clear that simply being a poor public speaker was not at all indicative of low intellect.

Some people are great at public speaking, some aren't. It seems like it would be effectively unrelated to intelligence in general.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

You're not very original yourself with this "all this bad stuff he did must mean he was actually extremely cunning" argument.

I think he just relied too much on his staff and viewed the world a bit too simply.

What about jumping to conclusions, as well?

[Der Teutoniker]

was WHAT legally the case? that torture is an international war crime? its been illegal for many many years.

Well, then there should be a trial.

I guess I don't understand why there wouldn't be. Perhaps someone should send an e-mail to the UN.

Or the idea of international crimes can just go away because, well, they don't really make sense to me.