Is the American Dream dead?

[Beiluxia]

Yay! You can cite the handful of modern examples that managed to break through. Great.

Yet this is a nation of 350+ million people. And the vast majority can't. Worse yet? Even fewer of them can today than when Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and your grandfather got here.

I was responding to the original comment that rags to riches was a mith which it is not, secondly the United States has a population of 318 million, thirdly, the reason why this is so is because people realise the more they work the more they will be taxed, but if yous tay poor not only do you not get to work, but you get free healthcare, free education, free drugs, free wealthfare money to do with as you please, while if you become a member of the middle class or the bourgeoisie you get taxed more and more until you reach the upper class where your tax rate goes from 65% to a steady 30%, federal statistics show that 47% of AMericans do not pay Federal income taxes due to poor economic statuses, children, ect.

1.From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Social_system

Despite this formal opportunity for social mobility, recent research suggests that Britain and particularly the United States have less social mobility than the Nordic countries and Canada. These authors state that "the idea of the US as ‘the land of opportunity’ persists; and clearly seems misplaced."

And before you say Wikipedia is not well-sourced, here is the direct source from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#cite_note-guardian_article-9 which directly leads to a legitimate news article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity

The report focused on how education affected the life chances of British children compared with those in other countries. It put the UK and the US at the bottom of a social mobility league table of eight European and North American countries, with Norway at the top followed by Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany and Canada.

Proving that the American Dream has been greatly exaggerated.

2. That's about right.

3. That is entirely untrue. Poor people may get benefits but they DO NOT get free healthcare, nobody can just walk into a dentist's office and ask for a free checkup in the US. Poor people don't get free drugs, again you can't just go to the pharmacy with a prescription and expect to be handed to you a bottle of pills for free. Poor people don't get welfare (wealthfare??? what?) money to do what they please, that's totally against what welfare stands for in healthcare. I would also like to see credible sources that say about half of the US doesn't need to pay income taxes because they avoid it.

[Genivaria]

I was responding to the original comment that rags to riches was a mith which it is not, secondly the United States has a population of 318 million, thirdly, the reason why this is so is because people realise the more they work the more they will be taxed, but if yous tay poor not only do you not get to work, but you get free healthcare, free education, free drugs, free wealthfare money to do with as you please, while if you become a member of the middle class or the bourgeoisie you get taxed more and more until you reach the upper class where your tax rate goes from 65% to a steady 30%, federal statistics show that 47% of AMericans do not pay Federal income taxes due to poor economic statuses, children, ect.

1.From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Social_system

Despite this formal opportunity for social mobility, recent research suggests that Britain and particularly the United States have less social mobility than the Nordic countries and Canada. These authors state that "the idea of the US as ‘the land of opportunity’ persists; and clearly seems misplaced."

And before you say Wikipedia is not well-sourced, here is the direct source from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#cite_note-guardian_article-9 which directly leads to a legitimate news article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity

The report focused on how education affected the life chances of British children compared with those in other countries. It put the UK and the US at the bottom of a social mobility league table of eight European and North American countries, with Norway at the top followed by Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany and Canada.

Proving that the American Dream has been greatly exaggerated.

2. That's about right.

3. That is entirely untrue. Poor people may get benefits but they DO NOT get free healthcare, nobody can just walk into a dentist's office and ask for a free checkup in the US. Poor people don't get free drugs, again you can't just go to the pharmacy with a prescription and expect to be handed to you a bottle of pills for free. Poor people don't get welfare (wealthfare??? what?) money to do what they please, that's totally against what welfare stands for in healthcare. I would also like to see credible sources that say about half of the US doesn't need to pay income taxes because they avoid it.

He was just banned so you'll be waiting awhile.

[AiliailiA]

Plainly the tax burden on the richest 1% isn't discouraging them from making money ("being successful").

Here's another chart from the article Saarkhan linked to before:



You can see that the highest-income earners pay more than their share, but it's not much more.

Seems to me that raising taxes on the highest income earners isn't going to change the underlying trend of concentrating wealth. Financial assets will keep growing, profits from banking will keep growing at the expense of all productive industry ... and it simply wont make any difference what is done about wages. The assets are owned already.

We should be looking at a Tobin tax, or some other method of systemically limiting the growth of the financial sector.

[Beiluxia]

if you are going to start that arguement that someone for private property rights would be pro-slavery back in the 1800s please refraim from that liberal arguement, he/she is obviously referring to the fact that he/she would like to have his/her daughters sell lemondae on the front lawn without being stopped by a police officer because they don't have a $500 permit.

Excuse me, but, can you please stop calling everything you hate "liberal", please? Thanks.

^This. Reminds me of the time when Rush Limbaugh said he "knew the Global Warming thingy was a hoax because it was BACKED BY LIBERALS!"

[Beiluxia]

1.From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Social_system

And before you say Wikipedia is not well-sourced, here is the direct source from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#cite_note-guardian_article-9 which directly leads to a legitimate news article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity

Proving that the American Dream has been greatly exaggerated.

2. That's about right.

3. That is entirely untrue. Poor people may get benefits but they DO NOT get free healthcare, nobody can just walk into a dentist's office and ask for a free checkup in the US. Poor people don't get free drugs, again you can't just go to the pharmacy with a prescription and expect to be handed to you a bottle of pills for free. Poor people don't get welfare (wealthfare??? what?) money to do what they please, that's totally against what welfare stands for in healthcare. I would also like to see credible sources that say about half of the US doesn't need to pay income taxes because they avoid it.

He was just banned so you'll be waiting awhile.

sorry for this newb question, but by "ban" you mean he has been kicked out replying on this thread?

[Yuktova]

"You have to be asleep to believe in the American Dream" - George Carlin

oh look, it is one of those wall street protestors who sit on their ass and do nothing all day excpet whine and complain about how bad they got it. Hello crazy marxist bigot

I'm not any Marxist, socialist, communist, capitalist, fascist, or whatever new -ism is out there. I'm part of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement. And I certainly am not a bigot. And we're all a bit crazy, aren't we?

Hey, at least I'm saying my views, and actually trying to make a sustainable Earth for everyone, unlike most idealogies out there.

[Genivaria]

He was just banned so you'll be waiting awhile.

sorry for this newb question, but by "ban" you mean he has been kicked out replying on this thread?

Ye........I honestly have no idea.

[Genivaria]

oh look, it is one of those wall street protestors who sit on their ass and do nothing all day excpet whine and complain about how bad they got it. Hello crazy marxist bigot

I'm not any Marxist, socialist, communist, capitalist, fascist, or whatever new -ism is out there. I'm part of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement. And I certainly am not a bigot. And we're all a bit crazy, aren't we?

Hey, at least I'm saying my views, and actually trying to make a sustainable Earth for everyone, unlike most idealogies out there.

BROTHER! *Glomps*

[The Black Forrest]

Well I don't equate "rags to riches" with the American Dream. His story. His story is a "Rags to Riches" story. He came to this country with nothing. His children are doing great things. One daughter went to Stanford has an MBA and is not semi-retired after a stint with Deloitte and Touche. That's in just one generation.

To suggest it's a myth says it never happens.

Ahhh...fair point. Fair point. I retract that bit.

Finally, American Dream when I was growing was simply getting an education, a job, a wife and a home. They didn't preach wealth like they do today.

When I was in school (late 80's-2004), the American Dream was taught (both as a historical concept and as an existent concept still going today) that anyone could become part of the elites. It was contrasted with the static social hierarchies of Europe, and particularly England. Everywhere else in the world (or at least the world worth talking about, it would seem), you were tied to the class you were born into. Here? You could work hard and make it.

Maybe it's become a misrepresentation?

Perhaps, but from what I have seen historically, it has always been what I outlined.

Actually now that you mention it; I seem to recall that as well. My view was mainly my families teachings.

So I will join the Carlin camp now.

[Beiluxia]

sorry for this newb question, but by "ban" you mean he has been kicked out replying on this thread?

Ye........I honestly have no idea.

oh well.

[AiliailiA]

However to Distruzio, your bit about the soldiers was out of taste, its the politicians who should be hung and shot down the streets by the soldiers they forced into action in secret wars that cause alot of the debt we have to day that is running the economy underground. The Soldiers are not thieves and murderers, as I said, your call was out of taste.

There is a distinction between soldiers who signed up to defend their country (and for the pay and benefits of course) before the Iraq and Afghantistan wars, and those who signed up with those wars going on.

The former you can say were betrayed by politicians sending them to an unnecessary war. But the latter cannot possibly have been unaware of what war they would fight in when they signed up.

[Sarkhaan]

Plainly the tax burden on the richest 1% isn't discouraging them from making money ("being successful").

Here's another chart from the article Saarkhan linked to before:

(Image)

You can see that the highest-income earners pay more than their share, but it's not much more.

They paid their share if we are just looking at income. But what is more important is taxes paid in relation to disposable income. It's great that the super-wealthy pay close to their share when we look at just the numbers, but those in the lowest income group are paying taxes not out of their disposable income, but out of money that goes to things like food and shelter. The wealthy can cover their taxes entirely out of their disposable income.

Seems to me that raising taxes on the highest income earners isn't going to change the underlying trend of concentrating wealth. Financial assets will keep growing, profits from banking will keep growing at the expense of all productive industry ... and it simply wont make any difference what is done about wages. The assets are owned already.

It is part of a larger change needed. If financial assets keep growing, then they keep paying taxes on that value. Wages are an entirely different issue not tied to taxation.

[Lotrabme]

oh look, it is one of those wall street protestors who sit on their ass and do nothing all day excpet whine and complain about how bad they got it. Hello crazy marxist bigot

I'm not any Marxist, socialist, communist, capitalist, fascist, or whatever new -ism is out there. I'm part of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement. And I certainly am not a bigot. And we're all a bit crazy, aren't we?

Hey, at least I'm saying my views, and actually trying to make a sustainable Earth for everyone, unlike most idealogies out there.

Yay! Yuktova my friend!, Im into the same path of a renewed earth better for future generations, its time for a new regime, join me!

[The Nuclear Fist]

Yes, Human Rights, ew.

I prefer individual rights to corporate rights meaning I prefer property rights to human rights.

Fuck freedom of speech and freedom of protest, I own a patch of land I didn't make!

[Distruzio]

Thieves and murderers, the lot. The military gets a pass in that they are pitiable souls who simply fire where told.

excuse me, but did you just insult the over 2,000 men and women woh have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, because if you are than you are no better than that guy who stands outisde military funerals telling gay soldier's familys that their loved one is going to hell. Have some respoect for the people that protect you from foreign threats

Imagine, if you will, my scoff at this appeal to emotion. I am not "protected" by the invasion of innocent nations, the slaughter of innocent civilians who were never involved in whatever bullshit the US gov't threw together to justify the invasion, or the occupation, indoctrination, and elimination of entire cultures abroad. I am not impressed with your feigned indignation in the slightest bit.

An insult? Hardly. Once in uniform, the soldier deserves my pity. And that is what s/he gets.

[AiliailiA]

He was just banned so you'll be waiting awhile.

sorry for this newb question, but by "ban" you mean he has been kicked out replying on this thread?

Euronion can resume posting in this or any other thread, one day from now when their ban expires.

It was me who reported it btw. Sorry to those who wanted to continue debating Euronion, but rules are rules. You'll have to wait.

[Yuktova]

I'm not any Marxist, socialist, communist, capitalist, fascist, or whatever new -ism is out there. I'm part of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement. And I certainly am not a bigot. And we're all a bit crazy, aren't we?

Hey, at least I'm saying my views, and actually trying to make a sustainable Earth for everyone, unlike most idealogies out there.

BROTHER! *Glomps*

Well, I always knew we were conjoined twins...
Too bad people call me a Marxist without letting me explain the views of the movement. I mean fuck, it's really hard to explain RBE & Jacque Fresco's supercomputer to others sometimes.

[Lotrabme]

However to Distruzio, your bit about the soldiers was out of taste, its the politicians who should be hung and shot down the streets by the soldiers they forced into action in secret wars that cause alot of the debt we have to day that is running the economy underground. The Soldiers are not thieves and murderers, as I said, your call was out of taste.

There is a distinction between soldiers who signed up to defend their country (and for the pay and benefits of course) before the Iraq and Afghantistan wars, and those who signed up with those wars going on.

The former you can say were betrayed by politicians sending them to an unnecessary war. But the latter cannot possibly have been unaware of what war they would fight in when they signed up.

Understandable, Patriotism goes a long way though sometimes (i.e. Oceania 1984), I understand that point, however alot of these cruel wars are going on without most people knowing of it, such as the minor operations in Yemen. All I really meant was that Distruzios blantant insult went a bit to far, he could have worded it in your perspective.

[AiliailiA]

I prefer individual rights to corporate rights meaning I prefer property rights to human rights.

Fuck freedom of speech and freedom of protest, I own a patch of land I didn't make!

Property rights are even more perverse than that. Real estate is a relatively rational form of private property.

[Beiluxia]

Also, to add to the argument, hasn't the term "The American Dream" been sullied to just a conservatively motivated term to bash Obama? I remember hearing from somewhere a conservative criticizing Obama's proposed raise on tax for the wealthy, because apparently it "punishes those who have already achieved the American Dream." Many Republicans also seem to like to refer back to "The American Dream" as some weird form of defense when others attack their stupid ideals and statements.

[Distruzio]

I prefer individual rights to corporate rights meaning I prefer property rights to human rights.

Fuck freedom of speech and freedom of protest, I own a patch of land I didn't make!

Those "freedoms" are freedoms from gov't persecution, my friend. They stop at my doorstep. Moreover, property rights include the right to individual sovereignty and dignity. Meaning your free speech? Tied to the right of ownership of your body. Meaning the right to protest? Tied to the right of ownership of your body. Property is more than land. It is your mind's ownership of your body.

[Isolated China]

Is the American Dream dead? You know the old adage of success through hard work, doesn't seem to get you anywhere nowadays but a pile of lifelong debt. It worked for my parents when my father a penniless immigrant from Indonesia landed a job with the Postal Service and we managed to a decent middle class existence, say what you will about the Federal Government, but they sure provide a tool for upwards social mobility. That's why I hope to go the Fed route after my stint in the Army.

Of course it died. How many Americans do you see nowadays that complain about hard work and such? A lot.

[Natvia]

It died with Raoul Duke.

[Lotrabme]

BROTHER! *Glomps*

Well, I always knew we were conjoined twins...
Too bad people call me a Marxist without letting me explain the views of the movement. I mean fuck, it's really hard to explain RBE & Jacque Fresco's supercomputer to others sometimes.

Though I officially support the Republican party, I am more of a moderate, and see no evils in marxism.

And believe me, its hard to explain a Pig Brain Machine sometimes too.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Fuck freedom of speech and freedom of protest, I own a patch of land I didn't make!

Those "freedoms" are freedoms from gov't persecution, my friend. They stop at my doorstep. Moreover, property rights include the right to individual sovereignty and dignity. Meaning your free speech? Tied to the right of ownership of your body. Meaning the right to protest? Tied to the right of ownership of your body. Property is more than land. It is your mind's ownership of your body.

Your mind doesn't own your body. 'Ownership' is an artificial construct. It only exists so long as there is sufficient force to back it up. That, at its core then, is the purpose of an organised government.