Discussion on White Nationalism

[The USOT]

I don't see how eugenics can be true or false. It's not a statement.

The actual application leads to false conclusions.

What? How?

Applying Eugenics under race science of course doesnt work, in the same way that applying the principles of combustion to a pencil will not enable you to write...


However, actually applying Eugenics in itself does not lead to "false conclusions". E.g. if person X has an inheritable disease, and then person X does not breed, then indeed his inheritable disease will not be passed down to offspring due to his not having bred.
What false conclusion can you draw from the lack of breeding not producing children?

[Terra Agora]

Well, the current white youth could benefit from some racial pride as well. Young White people are raised learning about the bad things their ancestors did and basically told that being proud to be white is a bad thing, so they go on doing anything they can to not be proud our not seem racist. I just think that's terrible that they can't even be proud for fear of being labeled a supremacist. White people too should be allowed to express racial pride, I think it would actually make race relations better, it think the current white generation has done alot in the way of not repeating past mistakes.

Why have racial pride? It will automaticly be racist, as then it is like "I am white and proud." Why proud? Because you are not black or brown. And when you are proud of being something, then you will easly end up hating the thing you are proud you are not. Racepride is horrible, as then it will be, as i said, "I am proud to be white", or, in other words; "I am proud that i am not black".
Skin colour is nothing to be proud of. White skin is actually bad. People are black, because their ancestors lived in the sun all day, and the black skin helps against the sun. The same with brown skin. I dont know what the white skin does good. But Race pride and Skin Pride is bad.

Yeah, no.

[Terra Agora]

The actual application leads to false conclusions.

What? How?

Applying Eugenics under race science of course doesnt work, in the same way that applying the principles of combustion to a pencil will not enable you to write...


However, actually applying Eugenics in itself does not lead to "false conclusions". E.g. if person X has an inheritable disease, and then person X does not breed, then indeed his inheritable disease will not be passed down to offspring due to his not having bred.
What false conclusion can you draw from the lack of breeding not producing children?

There isn't even a set definition of what a defect is so to say it's a disease is wrong.
And you actually have the problem of eliminating these traits.

[The USOT]

What? How?

Applying Eugenics under race science of course doesnt work, in the same way that applying the principles of combustion to a pencil will not enable you to write...


However, actually applying Eugenics in itself does not lead to "false conclusions". E.g. if person X has an inheritable disease, and then person X does not breed, then indeed his inheritable disease will not be passed down to offspring due to his not having bred.
What false conclusion can you draw from the lack of breeding not producing children?

There isn't even a set definition of what a defect is so to say it's a disease is wrong.
And you actually have the problem of eliminating these traits.

But still the mechanics of it work. If a man with cystic fibrosis, or the capability to pass on cystic firbrosis does not breed, his children wont have the disease due to their not existing.
This is the core of Eugenics, identifying a trait that needs to be removed and then removing it. Im not saying I support it, but that when it is applied in the case of diseases (such as those that are indentifiable as diseases due to standard defenition such as CF) it does indeed work to remove the disease.

[Terra Agora]

There isn't even a set definition of what a defect is so to say it's a disease is wrong.
And you actually have the problem of eliminating these traits.

But still the mechanics of it work. If a man with cystic fibrosis, or the capability to pass on cystic firbrosis does not breed, his children wont have the disease due to their not existing.
This is the core of Eugenics, identifying a trait that needs to be removed and then removing it. Im not saying I support it, but that when it is applied in the case of diseases (such as those that are indentifiable as diseases due to standard defenition such as CF) it does indeed work to remove the disease.

It depends on the case, not all diseases and traits can be eliminated as easy as they say they can let alone be removed in that manner.
IIRC they're called "heterozygous recessive traits."

[Dyakovo]

Well, this changes things; serves me right for making assumptions...

Here I was thinking you were white and going on about some "I'm white and I'm awesome because of it!" business, but it's become a "I'm black and just as good as you!" thing. That's fairly different in a number of key ways, considering the dynamics of race relations most anywhere. A community united by oppression from outside, and all that.

Well, the current white youth could benefit from some racial pride as well. Young White people are raised learning about the bad things their ancestors did and basically told that being proud to be white is a bad thing, so they go on doing anything they can to not be proud our not seem racist. I just think that's terrible that they can't even be proud for fear of being labeled a supremacist. White people too should be allowed to express racial pride, I think it would actually make race relations better, it think the current white generation has done alot in the way of not repeating past mistakes.

Well stated... Not sure I agree with you about racial pride being a good thing, but I do see what you're saying...

[Nazi Flower Power]

I can find brotherhood with people of all ethnicities, and I can appreciate the positive aspects of my country without being aggressive or militant about it, so... yeah, when you throw in the negatives, it's objectively worse at fostering honor, purpose, and so on than most every other ideology.

Racial Nationalism doesn't prevent me from befriending or bonding with people of other ethnicities, and I'm not particularly militant about my racial pride. I fail to see the negatives to racial pride you speak of. If it were supremacism, then yes, not expriencing the joy of befriending people of other races would be a negative and I agree, but this is not the case with plain racial nationalism.

Why? And How?
What is it about an accident of birth that gives you a purpose?

I see it this way, you where born into your race/nation, so this is where you belong. If you learn to accept and embrace your race it is easier to accept yourself and the way you are.....if that makes sense. Not to pull the card, but maybe I feel differently about this because I'm black....

I don't think you are talking about the same kind of racial nationalism that white nationalists preach. And last time I saw a "black nationalist" on NSG he also was not talking about just loving yourself the way you are. He was promoting separatism and ranting about how black people that marry outside the race are useless to the black community, and generally seemed to have a bad attitude. Most people don't just mean pride when they talk about racial nationalism.

Pride without the separatism and suprematism is not a problem.

[Sidhae]

Having pride in one's ancestry and their achievements is a key to having respect for oneself and those around, having the desire to prove a worthy descendant and do even better than one's ancestors.

Having ancestors that were oppressed is no excuse to think that entitles you to anything. It was them, not you, that were oppressed. Instead, it is your duty to be better than your ancestors and take steps to ensure nobody can oppress you and your children.

Likewise, having ancestors that oppressed others or did other shameful deeds is no reason to think less of yourself, much less feel guilty and apologize about it. They made their mistakes, did their own wrongs - you don't have to repeat them.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Well, this changes things; serves me right for making assumptions...

Here I was thinking you were white and going on about some "I'm white and I'm awesome because of it!" business, but it's become a "I'm black and just as good as you!" thing. That's fairly different in a number of key ways, considering the dynamics of race relations most anywhere. A community united by oppression from outside, and all that.

Well, the current white youth could benefit from some racial pride as well. Young White people are raised learning about the bad things their ancestors did and basically told that being proud to be white is a bad thing, so they go on doing anything they can to not be proud our not seem racist. I just think that's terrible that they can't even be proud for fear of being labeled a supremacist. White people too should be allowed to express racial pride, I think it would actually make race relations better, it think the current white generation has done alot in the way of not repeating past mistakes.

Aw, man! You are officially my favorite "black nationalist" ever!

[Alyakia]

Having ancestors that were oppressed is no excuse to think that entitles you to anything. It was them, not you, that were oppressed. Instead, it is your duty to be better than your ancestors and take steps to ensure nobody can oppress you and your children.

Oppression has effects and they last for quite a while.

[Ashmoria]

Having ancestors that were oppressed is no excuse to think that entitles you to anything. It was them, not you, that were oppressed. Instead, it is your duty to be better than your ancestors and take steps to ensure nobody can oppress you and your children.

Oppression has effects and they last for quite a while.

yeah

i dont know if y'all saw this report over the summer. it made my jaw drop

In 2007, best year of the Bush era, white households had a median net worth of $134,280, compared with $13,450 for black households.

By 2009, the median net worth for white households had fallen 24 percent to $97,860. For black households, it had plummeted 83 percent to $2,170, a near wipeout.

As Algernon Austin of EPI's Program on Race, Ethnicity and the Economy put it, "In 2009, for every dollar of wealth the average white household had, black households had two cents."

i pulled this off a pat buchannan blog post so read the whole thing at your peril

http://www.vdare.com/articles/black-america-vs-obama

[Nazi Flower Power]

Oppression has effects and they last for quite a while.

yeah

i dont know if y'all saw this report over the summer. it made my jaw drop

In 2007, best year of the Bush era, white households had a median net worth of $134,280, compared with $13,450 for black households.

By 2009, the median net worth for white households had fallen 24 percent to $97,860. For black households, it had plummeted 83 percent to $2,170, a near wipeout.

As Algernon Austin of EPI's Program on Race, Ethnicity and the Economy put it, "In 2009, for every dollar of wealth the average white household had, black households had two cents."

i pulled this off a pat buchannan blog post so read the whole thing at your peril

http://www.vdare.com/articles/black-america-vs-obama

Not cool!

[Conserative Morality]

I hold this truth to be self-evident.
We didn't invent pizza margherita, gorgonzola and risotto for nothing you know.

You do have a point.

[Altakstan]

Again, you guys are all focusing on, "We need pride, it's good". But what the hell is "White"? Let me answer that for you, it's an inane cultural concept that is propagated by the uneducated who are unaware of anything having to do with genetics. There are many ethnic groups in the world, all of them essentially one a sliding scale from one arbitrary end to the other, with groups being each more closely related the closer they are on the scale. Now, let me show you the problem of a "White Race". How can you possibly define the "White Race"? To go far enough back to encompass Europeans and leave out Asians or Africans, we would have to go farther back than ethnic groups (Like Germanic and Celtic), and move to the large ones, the Indo-Europeans. If you go back any farther, you start including many peoples you do not consider white. Now, even at this level, the Basque people(Who are considered "White") are not included in the white race, while a large amount of Pakistanis and Indians, all of Iran and Afghanistan and up through the Caucasus(Aryans), are includes in the white race(Even though they are not considered white. Noe, you can make it more specific and select ethnic groups to avoid choosing non-whites, but then there lies a distinction between an Gael and a Pole, where they are different. To unify ethnic groups, you must pick a more encompassing group, and if you pick a more encompassing group, you include peoples you don't consider to be white and leave out peoples that you do. That, right there, is a logical error that White Nationalists refuse to view. The "White Race" is a purely cultural concept.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Again, you guys are all focusing on, "We need pride, it's good". But what the hell is "White"? Let me answer that for you, it's an inane cultural concept that is propagated by the uneducated who are unaware of anything having to do with genetics. There are many ethnic groups in the world, all of them essentially one a sliding scale from one arbitrary end to the other, with groups being each more closely related the closer they are on the scale. Now, let me show you the problem of a "White Race". How can you possibly define the "White Race"? To go far enough back to encompass Europeans and leave out Asians or Africans, we would have to go farther back than ethnic groups (Like Germanic and Celtic), and move to the large ones, the Indo-Europeans. If you go back any farther, you start including many peoples you do not consider white. Now, even at this level, the Basque people(Who are considered "White") are not included in the white race, while a large amount of Pakistanis and Indians, all of Iran and Afghanistan and up through the Caucasus(Aryans), are includes in the white race(Even though they are not considered white. Noe, you can make it more specific and select ethnic groups to avoid choosing non-whites, but then there lies a distinction between an Gael and a Pole, where they are different. To unify ethnic groups, you must pick a more encompassing group, and if you pick a more encompassing group, you include peoples you don't consider to be white and leave out peoples that you do. That, right there, is a logical error that White Nationalists refuse to view. The "White Race" is a purely cultural concept.

Being proud to be part of a culturally defined group is not any more illogical than being proud to be part of a genetic group. It's only illogical if you take a cultural group and pretend it's genetic -- which white nationalists often do -- but that's kind of separate from answering the question "what the hell is 'White'?" There is no reason why the definition of white needs to have a genetic basis.

Of course people do not always agree on who counts as white, but that's kind of irrelevant too. People can debate about which states are "the Midwest," but that doesn't stop people in Iowa from being proudly Midwestern.

[Alaje]

Having pride in one's ancestry and their achievements is a key to having respect for oneself and those around, having the desire to prove a worthy descendant and do even better than one's ancestors.

Having ancestors that were oppressed is no excuse to think that entitles you to anything. It was them, not you, that were oppressed. Instead, it is your duty to be better than your ancestors and take steps to ensure nobody can oppress you and your children.

Likewise, having ancestors that oppressed others or did other shameful deeds is no reason to think less of yourself, much less feel guilty and apologize about it. They made their mistakes, did their own wrongs - you don't have to repeat them.

Yes, this is what I was getting at! You and I are thinking on the same exact frequency right now!

Racial Nationalism doesn't prevent me from befriending or bonding with people of other ethnicities, and I'm not particularly militant about my racial pride. I fail to see the negatives to racial pride you speak of. If it were supremacism, then yes, not expriencing the joy of befriending people of other races would be a negative and I agree, but this is not the case with plain racial nationalism.



I see it this way, you where born into your race/nation, so this is where you belong. If you learn to accept and embrace your race it is easier to accept yourself and the way you are.....if that makes sense. Not to pull the card, but maybe I feel differently about this because I'm black....

I don't think you are talking about the same kind of racial nationalism that white nationalists preach. And last time I saw a "black nationalist" on NSG he also was not talking about just loving yourself the way you are. He was promoting separatism and ranting about how black people that marry outside the race are useless to the black community, and generally seemed to have a bad attitude. Most people don't just mean pride when they talk about racial nationalism.

Pride without the separatism and suprematism is not a problem.

Well, I can't really be too much against blacks marrying non-blacks since one of my own grandmas is German....so yeah it'd be rather self hating for me to be anti-interracial marriage. Could you imagine that?

[Ceannairceach]

Having pride in one's ancestry and their achievements is a key to having respect for oneself and those around, having the desire to prove a worthy descendant and do even better than one's ancestors.

Having ancestors that were oppressed is no excuse to think that entitles you to anything. It was them, not you, that were oppressed. Instead, it is your duty to be better than your ancestors and take steps to ensure nobody can oppress you and your children.

Likewise, having ancestors that oppressed others or did other shameful deeds is no reason to think less of yourself, much less feel guilty and apologize about it. They made their mistakes, did their own wrongs - you don't have to repeat them.

And yet its OK to be prideful in their "Good" achievements? I'm sorry, but yo are advocating a double standard here; If they achieved something good, be prideful, but don't complain if they were oppressed.

It was they who achieved something, not you, and you shouldn't be entitled to any special pride. INstead, work for yourself and achieve something.

[Ceannairceach]

Well, I can't really be too much against blacks marrying non-blacks since one of my own grandmas is German....so yeah it'd be rather self hating for me to be anti-interracial marriage. Could you imagine that?

As I recall, NSG once had the "fortune" of having a mulatto man who was a white supremacist and nationalist. You'd be surprised what comes about NSG.

[Alaje]

Well, I can't really be too much against blacks marrying non-blacks since one of my own grandmas is German....so yeah it'd be rather self hating for me to be anti-interracial marriage. Could you imagine that?

As I recall, NSG once had the "fortune" of having a mulatto man who was a white supremacist and nationalist. You'd be surprised what comes about NSG.

I'm glad he's not around, I would've ripped him a new one.....self hating wanker....

[Nazi Flower Power]

As I recall, NSG once had the "fortune" of having a mulatto man who was a white supremacist and nationalist. You'd be surprised what comes about NSG.

I'm glad he's not around, I would've ripped him a new one.....self hating wanker....

Oh, people did rip him a new one.

[Natvia]

Isn't the whole idea of "White" Nationalism simply farcical? There is no unified "White" culture. There's no "White" homeland. There's no "White" language. It's... all very strange and smacks of little to no research and a flawed concept of what "Nationalism" means.

To paraphrase my man Jules; "'White' ain't no country I ever heard of!"

[Dakini]

I'm not a white nationalist because my parents weren't blood relatives.

[Beringovia]

Isn't the whole idea of "White" Nationalism simply farcical? There is no unified "White" culture. There's no "White" homeland. There's no "White" language. It's... all very strange and smacks of little to no research and a flawed concept of what "Nationalism" means.

To paraphrase my man Jules; "'White' ain't no country I ever heard of!"

I agree. I also believe this applies to "black nationalism" as well.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Isn't the whole idea of "White" Nationalism simply farcical? There is no unified "White" culture. There's no "White" homeland. There's no "White" language. It's... all very strange and smacks of little to no research and a flawed concept of what "Nationalism" means.

To paraphrase my man Jules; "'White' ain't no country I ever heard of!"

*Shrugs* All Nations are social constructs, (see Benedict Andersons' Imagined communities for a good read on the topic) - most of which are forged through a biased reading of history and conscious differentiation from the "other". For instance, even the emergence of a British identity following The act of Union was essentially the product of anti Catholicism, especially French Catholicism, alongside a fear of Jacobite rebellion which was Linda Colleys main arguement in her famous work, Britons: forging the nation 1707–1837.

Post Moorish Spain and German Nationalism post the Napoleonic wars are other examples of this - though, it should be stressed that Nationalism really started to take off as a really relavent political phenomenon only during the 19th century and afterwards.

Most non-civic forms of Nationalism, in my view, is just based on bigoted distinctions from "others." White Nationalists aren't doing anything original in self identifying themselves as superior, or at least "different" from other groups of human beings - and making shit up to support their claim. Of course, they confront more difficulties in that this group they imagine to be a single community are extremely diverse, ethnically, linguistically, in appearance, and in geographical location/origin - but of course, at least they aren't a bunch of - well, you know.

[Natvia]

I don't think anybody can get "White" stamped on their passport.

SO.

I don't know what that means, actually, I just thought it was witty.