Smooth move, Alabama

[Wikkiwallana]

No, but thanks for playing.


And if they're small enough fish to slip through the IRS's net, they're also small enough fish to not hurt the country.

The business is only not going to record the cash flow if it actually wants to lose money. Not keeping track of how much you are paying out is a good way to have hefty chunks of money just disappear. A stack of 8 bills doesn't look all that different from a stack of 7, but supposing they are even just twenties, 1 bill a week adds up to $1,040 a year.

"Every X counts". The less taxes they pay, the more they steal from the government, the more people like me (and I take it you) have to pay.

Indeed it does, and it has so far counted out to a surplus for the government:

All immigrants pay taxes whether they are illegal or not. They pay them in the form of property tax - directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent; sales tax on all the goods they buy, and income tax at Federal, State and local level.
Since illegal immigrants often have fake documents, including fake social security numbers, the money they pay into the system is money that will never be withdrawn. The amount in question is evidenced by the Social Security Administration’s “suspense file” (taxes that cannot be matched to workers’ names and social security numbers), which grew $20 billion between 1990 and 1998.[1][2]

Emphasis mine.

I never said those businesses were smart, but it happens regularly, you've yet to deny that, because you can't.

Why should I bother to deny something you've given only anecdotal evidence for? Sure it happens, but until you give me a solid reason to believe it's widespread enough to be a problem I simply don't care.

Its not like they don't write anything down - I'm sure those businesses have scratch paper, a Word doc, whatever, for keeping track of how much they bring in. When I say "off the books" I mean nothing is turned in to the state/ government, its not a registered business, etc.

Fair enough, you got me on that one, because I misunderstood you and was arguing against a point you weren't making. Mea culpa.

[Wikkiwallana]

Because I'm getting tired of some of the claims about immigrants on this thread, I went to look some of the up on Wiki, here are my findings:

Illegal immigrants hurt the economy:

Texas has the second highest population of illegal immigrants, and The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas indicates that putting a halt to current deportation policies will improve the US economy by encouraging increased economic consumption.[104]
The decline in consumer demand created by declining immigrant population matches the start of the Great Recession that began with foreclosures in 2007.[105] An almost identical economic decline occurred from 1929 through 1937 during the period of Mexican Repatriation following the Mexican Revolution, when over half a million illegal immigrants and legal US citizens of Latin descent were forcibly deported out of the country following racist campaigns by most news organizations within the US.[106][107]
…
UCLA research indicates economic activity produced by illegal immigrant employment produces $150 billion in consumer spending that employs about 5% of the total legal US workforce.[109][110][111][112] Illegal immigrants occupy over 3 million dwellings, or just under 4% of the total number of homes in the US.[109][110][111][112]
Nearly every dollar earned by illegal immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by illegal immigrant activities within the US.[109][110][111][112]

Nearly every dollar earned by illegal immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by illegal immigrant activities within the US.[13][14][15]

We could stop illegal immigration with tighter border security:

Border control uses the latest technology to help capture illegal immigrants in the process of crossing, sometimes detain/prosecute, and send them back over the border. According to the US Department of Homeland Security and the Border Patrol Enforcement Integrated Database, apprehensions have increased from 955,310 in 2002 to 1,159,802 in 2004. "But fewer than 4 percent of apprehended migrants were actually detained and prosecuted for illegal entry, partly because it costs $90 a day to keep them in detention facilities and bed space is very limited. For the remainder of the apprehended migrants, if they are willing to sign a form attesting that they are voluntarily repatriating themselves, they are simply bussed to a gate on the border, where they re-enter Mexico."[118][verification needed] "During the summer of 2004, the U.S. government pressured the Mexican government into accepting 'deep repatriation' of as many as 300 apprehended migrants per day to six cities in central and southern Mexico.

Emphasis Mine

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes:

Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[114]
A paper in the peer reviewed Tax Lawyer journal from the American Bar Association asserts that illegal immigrants contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services.[115] The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years to evaluate the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments, and found that the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, but that the amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions.[116]

Undocumented Taxpayers
Most arguments against illegal immigration begin with the premise that the undocumented don't pay income taxes, and that they therefore take more in services than they contribute. However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[16] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[16] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[17]
The Internal Revenue Service issues an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS. In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes, of which more than half were illegal immigrants.[18]
Undocumented Workers Subsidize Social Security
Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."[10]
The Social Security Administration has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted as erroneous wage reports instead of on an individual's earnings record.[19] When Social Security numbers are already in use; names do not match the numbers or the numbers are fake, or the person of record is too old, young, dead etc., the earnings reported to the Social Security Agency are put in an Earnings Suspense file [ESF]. The Social Security spends about $100 million a year and corrects all but about 2% of these. From Tax Years (TY) 1937 through 2003 the ESF had accumulated about 255 million mismatched wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages and about $75 billion in employment taxes paid into the over $1.5 trillion in the Social Security Trust funds. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages remained unresolved in the suspense file for TY 2003.[19]

Illegal Immigrants commit crimes:

California has the largest immigrant population in the US, and immigrants are under represented among prison inmates.[119] The most recent research indicates approximately 35% of the California population consists of immigrants, while immigrants represent 17% of the prison population. This implies that immigrants are about half as likely to become involved in crime, although deporting illegal immigrants soon after incarceration lowers the immigrant prison population. In fact, U.S. born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.[119] However, this does not however separate the illegal versus legal immigrants.
The fastest growing prison demographic are functionally illiterate adult male US citizens, which is over represented by the children of immigrants that failed to obtain an education because of the English-only movement. [120]
Illegal immigrants avoid involvement in criminal activity to reduce interaction with law enforcement officials, and evidence shows a decline in crime correlates with an increase in immigration in most large cities.[121]
According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".[56] Cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations.[122] Almost all of what is known about immigration and crime is from information on those in prison. Incarceration rates do not necessarily reflect differences in current crime rates.[56]

[Dyakovo]

Because I'm getting tired of some of the claims about immigrants on this thread, I went to look some of the up on Wiki, here are my findings:

Illegal immigrants hurt the economy:

Texas has the second highest population of illegal immigrants, and The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas indicates that putting a halt to current deportation policies will improve the US economy by encouraging increased economic consumption.[104]
The decline in consumer demand created by declining immigrant population matches the start of the Great Recession that began with foreclosures in 2007.[105] An almost identical economic decline occurred from 1929 through 1937 during the period of Mexican Repatriation following the Mexican Revolution, when over half a million illegal immigrants and legal US citizens of Latin descent were forcibly deported out of the country following racist campaigns by most news organizations within the US.[106][107]
…
UCLA research indicates economic activity produced by illegal immigrant employment produces $150 billion in consumer spending that employs about 5% of the total legal US workforce.[109][110][111][112] Illegal immigrants occupy over 3 million dwellings, or just under 4% of the total number of homes in the US.[109][110][111][112]
Nearly every dollar earned by illegal immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by illegal immigrant activities within the US.[109][110][111][112]

Nearly every dollar earned by illegal immigrants is spent immediately, and the average wage for US citizens is $10.25/hour with an average of 34 hours per week. This means that approximately 8 million US jobs are dependent upon economic activity produced by illegal immigrant activities within the US.[13][14][15]

We could stop illegal immigration with tighter border security:

Border control uses the latest technology to help capture illegal immigrants in the process of crossing, sometimes detain/prosecute, and send them back over the border. According to the US Department of Homeland Security and the Border Patrol Enforcement Integrated Database, apprehensions have increased from 955,310 in 2002 to 1,159,802 in 2004. "But fewer than 4 percent of apprehended migrants were actually detained and prosecuted for illegal entry, partly because it costs $90 a day to keep them in detention facilities and bed space is very limited. For the remainder of the apprehended migrants, if they are willing to sign a form attesting that they are voluntarily repatriating themselves, they are simply bussed to a gate on the border, where they re-enter Mexico."[118][verification needed] "During the summer of 2004, the U.S. government pressured the Mexican government into accepting 'deep repatriation' of as many as 300 apprehended migrants per day to six cities in central and southern Mexico.

Emphasis Mine

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes:

Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[114]
A paper in the peer reviewed Tax Lawyer journal from the American Bar Association asserts that illegal immigrants contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services.[115] The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years to evaluate the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments, and found that the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, but that the amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions.[116]

Undocumented Taxpayers
Most arguments against illegal immigration begin with the premise that the undocumented don't pay income taxes, and that they therefore take more in services than they contribute. However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[16] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[16] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[17]
The Internal Revenue Service issues an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS. In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes, of which more than half were illegal immigrants.[18]
Undocumented Workers Subsidize Social Security
Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."[10]
The Social Security Administration has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted as erroneous wage reports instead of on an individual's earnings record.[19] When Social Security numbers are already in use; names do not match the numbers or the numbers are fake, or the person of record is too old, young, dead etc., the earnings reported to the Social Security Agency are put in an Earnings Suspense file [ESF]. The Social Security spends about $100 million a year and corrects all but about 2% of these. From Tax Years (TY) 1937 through 2003 the ESF had accumulated about 255 million mismatched wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages and about $75 billion in employment taxes paid into the over $1.5 trillion in the Social Security Trust funds. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages remained unresolved in the suspense file for TY 2003.[19]

Illegal Immigrants commit crimes:

California has the largest immigrant population in the US, and immigrants are under represented among prison inmates.[119] The most recent research indicates approximately 35% of the California population consists of immigrants, while immigrants represent 17% of the prison population. This implies that immigrants are about half as likely to become involved in crime, although deporting illegal immigrants soon after incarceration lowers the immigrant prison population. In fact, U.S. born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.[119] However, this does not however separate the illegal versus legal immigrants.
The fastest growing prison demographic are functionally illiterate adult male US citizens, which is over represented by the children of immigrants that failed to obtain an education because of the English-only movement. [120]
Illegal immigrants avoid involvement in criminal activity to reduce interaction with law enforcement officials, and evidence shows a decline in crime correlates with an increase in immigration in most large cities.[121]
According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".[56] Cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations.[122] Almost all of what is known about immigration and crime is from information on those in prison. Incarceration rates do not necessarily reflect differences in current crime rates.[56]

Bah... It's wikipedia... Anybody can edit that...
You know someone is going to say that and be serious...

[President Mathias]

Because I'm getting tired of some of the claims about immigrants on this thread, I went to look some of the up on Wiki, here are my findings:

Illegal immigrants hurt the economy:



We could stop illegal immigration with tighter border security:

Emphasis Mine

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes:



Illegal Immigrants commit crimes:

Bah... It's wikipedia... Anybody can edit that...
You know someone is going to say that and be serious...

What they forget is that it has to be sourced or it's deleted pretty damn quick. I tried to put something up once, it was good but I forgot to source it, next day; gone.

[Wikkiwallana]

Because I'm getting tired of some of the claims about immigrants on this thread, I went to look some of the up on Wiki, here are my findings:

Illegal immigrants hurt the economy:



We could stop illegal immigration with tighter border security:

Emphasis Mine

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes:



Illegal Immigrants commit crimes:

Bah... It's wikipedia... Anybody can edit that...
You know someone is going to say that and be serious...

I know.

[Wikkiwallana]

Bah... It's wikipedia... Anybody can edit that...
You know someone is going to say that and be serious...

What they forget is that it has to be sourced or it's deleted pretty damn quick. I tried to put something up once, it was good but I forgot to source it, next day; gone.

Most of the people who say that don't forget that point, they deliberately ignore it.

[JuNii]

the New Colossus...

from Wiki...


so basically, the poem was affixed to the statue in an effort to immortalize the writer and not to have any other meaning or purpose.

Except if you go a little further into that same article, you find this:

Author John T. Cunningham wrote that "The Statue of Liberty was not conceived and sculpted as a symbol of immigration, but it quickly became so as immigrant ships passed under the statue. However, it was Lazarus's poem that permanently stamped on Miss Liberty the role of unofficial greeter of incoming immigrants".[6]

Paul Auster wrote that "Bartholdi's gigantic effigy was originally intended as a monument to the principles of international republicanism, but 'The New Colossus' reinvented the statue's purpose, turning Liberty into a welcoming mother, a symbol of hope to the outcasts and downtrodden of the world".[7]

all this states is that the role of the poem and the statue was never officially meant to be what everyone says it's supposed to be.

[Wikkiwallana]

Except if you go a little further into that same article, you find this:

all this states is that the role of the poem and the statue was never officially meant to be what everyone says it's supposed to be.

What part of reinvented don't you understand?

[JuNii]

all this states is that the role of the poem and the statue was never officially meant to be what everyone says it's supposed to be.

What part of reinvented don't you understand?

please show me the documentation declaring the Statue and poem to be offical?

if the majority of the US population believes that the USA is a Christian Nation... does that make it so?

[Wikkiwallana]

What part of reinvented don't you understand?

please show me the documentation declaring the Statue and poem to be offical?

if the majority of the US population believes that the USA is a Christian Nation... does that make it so?

Did anyone claim it was legally binding? No, we simply stated it as a sentiment that was once cherished.

[Calmerica]

What they forget is that it has to be sourced or it's deleted pretty damn quick. I tried to put something up once, it was good but I forgot to source it, next day; gone.

Most of the people who say that don't forget that point, they deliberately ignore it.

I don't discredit Wikipedia... I use it a lot, and I get your points.

As brought out earlier - its easy for immigrants to avoid those taxes if they aren't taken out automatically. Paid in cash, no income tax. Illegal immigrants who come to non sales tax states, don't pay sales tax. Its true they most likely pay property tax - if they rent. If they own a house, it can be avoided.

As for the work force, put the unemployed to work. There's roughly 27M unemployed Americans, and 11 million estimatedillegal immigrants. Kick all them out and drop the number to 16M. I know its not that easy obviously, but don't act like we need all those illegals for the economy. That's ridiculous.

[Dyakovo]

What part of reinvented don't you understand?

please show me the documentation declaring the Statue and poem to be offical?

if the majority of the US population believes that the USA is a Christian Nation... does that make it so?

The Statue of Liberty is a symbol, symbols tend to represent what the majority believes they represent...

[Dyakovo]

As for the work force, put the unemployed to work. There's roughly 27M unemployed Americans, and 11 million estimatedillegal immigrants. Kick all them out and drop the number to 16M. I know its not that easy obviously, but don't act like we need all those illegals for the economy. That's ridiculous.

Sorry, but Georgia is proof that that won't work.

[Wikkiwallana]

Most of the people who say that don't forget that point, they deliberately ignore it.

I don't discredit Wikipedia... I use it a lot, and I get your points.

As brought out earlier - its easy for immigrants to avoid those taxes if they aren't taken out automatically. Paid in cash, no income tax. Illegal immigrants who come to non sales tax states, don't pay sales tax. Its true they most likely pay property tax - if they rent. If they own a house, it can be avoided.

As for the work force, put the unemployed to work. There's roughly 27M unemployed Americans, and 11 million estimatedillegal immigrants. Kick all them out and drop the number to 16M. I know its not that easy obviously, but don't act like we need all those illegals for the economy. That's ridiculous.

And the huge number of those unemployed that used to be white collar workers want to be heavily underpaid hotel maids, crop pickers, construction workers, and landscapers why exactly?

Edit: Also, sales taxless states, as pointed out earlier in this very thread, are in the single digits. Out of a country of 50 states. Big freaking whoop. Also, you're assuming that all of those immigrants have jobs, as opposed to being families ranging from babies to too old to work.

[DaWoad]

I'm an american-born citizen. My parents were born in this country. Their parents were born in this country. And the parents of their parents emigrated here legally. Learned the language, assimilated. Yet somehow, an illegal immigrant that doesn't speak english can hop a fence, and get government subsidies to go to college? In my eyes, this is a crime. American citizens can't get jobs because there are illegal immigrants who come here, work for a lower cost, and then send that money to their families back in mexico.

Ignoring the many immigrants who come here illegally and do learn the language and assimilate?

You do realize that a good number of immigrants in the 1920s and 30s sent money back home as well? Are you aware that the exact same fucking arguments were used against them that are being used against Hispanic immigrants now?

also, it's a bullshit argument anyway. There aren't a ton of Americans clamoring for the jobs that illegals do.

[Dyakovo]

I don't discredit Wikipedia... I use it a lot, and I get your points.

As brought out earlier - its easy for immigrants to avoid those taxes if they aren't taken out automatically. Paid in cash, no income tax. Illegal immigrants who come to non sales tax states, don't pay sales tax. Its true they most likely pay property tax - if they rent. If they own a house, it can be avoided.

As for the work force, put the unemployed to work. There's roughly 27M unemployed Americans, and 11 million estimatedillegal immigrants. Kick all them out and drop the number to 16M. I know its not that easy obviously, but don't act like we need all those illegals for the economy. That's ridiculous.

And the huge number of those unemployed that used to be white collar workers want to be heavily underpaid hotel maids, crop pickers, construction workers, and landscapers why exactly?

Well... It's better than nothing... The thing is, of course, that even though it is better than nothing, they don't see it that way because the jobs done by illegals are those jobs that most Americans consider to be 'beneath them'...

[Wikkiwallana]

And the huge number of those unemployed that used to be white collar workers want to be heavily underpaid hotel maids, crop pickers, construction workers, and landscapers why exactly?

Well... It's better than nothing... The thing is, of course, that even though it is better than nothing, they don't see it that way because the jobs done by illegals are those jobs that most Americans consider to be 'beneath them'...

Well, given the pay:effort ratio they are used to compared to what the jobs done by illegal immigrants offer, why shouldn't they until they get significantly more desperate? Given the luxuries of time and security that we citizens have that illegal immigrants don't, it's more rational from our perspective to wait longer and see if the situation improves than to chain ourselves to a much harder job for really crappy pay.

[Calmerica]

Are you kidding me? If I made 100K a year then lost my job, became impoverished, and the only job available was janitorial work or picking berries - I'm all over it. If the jobs were available, sure it'd be hard, but take whatever the hell you can get.

No matter how many illegals work, you get my point. Having them in our country helps nothing. Rather it adds criminals, headache for the government, and raises my taxes. Kick them out.

[Horsefish]

Are you kidding me? If I made 100K a year then lost my job, became impoverished, and the only job available was janitorial work or picking berries - I'm all over it. If the jobs were available, sure it'd be hard, but take whatever the hell you can get.

No matter how many illegals work, you get my point. Having them in our country helps nothing. Rather it adds criminals, headache for the government, and raises my taxes. Kick them out.

Apart from if you look at this very page is demonstratably false....

[Des-Bal]

Being from mexico and being hispanic mean the same thing.

That was your logic and I was pointing out that it's stupid. Nationality and race are two separate things.

[Grave_n_idle]

Most of the people who say that don't forget that point, they deliberately ignore it.

I don't discredit Wikipedia... I use it a lot, and I get your points.

As brought out earlier - its easy for immigrants to avoid those taxes if they aren't taken out automatically. Paid in cash, no income tax. Illegal immigrants who come to non sales tax states, don't pay sales tax. Its true they most likely pay property tax - if they rent. If they own a house, it can be avoided.

As for the work force, put the unemployed to work. There's roughly 27M unemployed Americans, and 11 million estimatedillegal immigrants. Kick all them out and drop the number to 16M. I know its not that easy obviously, but don't act like we need all those illegals for the economy. That's ridiculous.

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html

The vast majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes, social security, etc - and claim no deductions, and make no demands on the system (because of their immigration status).

In other words, contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, most illegal immigrants not only aren't 'avoiding taxes' - they're paying more, for less return, than legal citizens in jobs at the same wage level.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imnative.html

Immigrant labor creates about three times as many jobs as it displaces, and the overall impact on the economy is slightly positive.


In other words, what you're suggesting is targeting the most job-productive, tax-productive, cost-reductive portion of the population, and financing a ridiculously expensive enforced relocation policy against them.

How does that possibly make any sense? Apart from xenophobia, why would anyone even want to do that?

[Dyakovo]

That was your logic 4.

Hardly

[Des-Bal]

Hardly

"Mexicans are of a different "race" than whites and you fail to distinguish between Mexicans and other hispanics."

[Sibirsky]

The laws are the problem, not the users.

The problem with crime is that it's against the law not that people commit it.

The problem with victimless crimes, is that there is no victim.

[Des-Bal]

The problem with victimless crimes, is that there is no victim.

The problem is the fact that a crime is being committed. You don't get to decide which laws you follow.