NATION

PASSWORD

Jesus died for you.

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The Alma Mater
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Founded: May 23, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:19 am

The Rich Port wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
To be fair, it IS possible the story was a tad bit... molested. Perhaps God offered humanity a choice:

A) living as animals in paradise, never learning, never growing, never accomplishing anything - but never knowing misery or loss either
B) Becoming mortals, able to suffer - but also able to grow. And one day, become Gods equal. Or perhaps even more.

and instead of being tempted by the serpent, humanities representatives picked B after careful consideration.

Of course, this version does kinda conflict with the whole concept of Dogma certain churches adore so much. It also significantly changes the meaning of the concept of "Sin".

But hey. It makes God a whole lot more likeable.


What is this? A LOGICAL COMPROMISE? IN A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION?! BLASPHEMY


Well, it is not really a compromise - since my version is incompatible with just about all doctrines - AND contradicts the Biblebooks we still have.

But hey. I could always proclaim myself the prophet of a new faith and write a third testament ;)
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:20 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Well, up until when Jesus came to us and then descended to Hell, we were automatically being carted off to Hell for being Jews instead of Christians. So, up until Jesus, you could say, under Christian theology, that he did in fact leave us out in the dust.

I would disagree. God gave them the sacrificial system. The animals dis not actually bring redemption, otherwise Christ's sacrifice is trite. It was an act representing their faith through obedience, their faith that God would provide a method of salvation (see: Jesus)

Animal sacrifice certainly did bring redemption from sin, otherwise why do it? But it wasn't redemption in the hereafter, it was redemption in the here-and-now. Sacrifices pleased the Lord, and if one screwed up - not hard to do given the multiplicity of rules the Jews live under - one could be redeemed by making the appropriate sacrifice. And the Jews were not as concerned with the hereafter. They expected the Messiah to be an earthly king, who would drive their enemies before him, gather the exiles, restore the religious courts of justice, end wickedness, sin, and heresy, reward the righteous, rebuild Jerusalem, restore the line of King David, and restore Temple service (the list is from the Wiki article on "Messiah"). It's only the Christians who painted the happy face of heaven on a basically formless Jewish afterlife. All well and good, if you believe it.
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The Rich Port
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Rich Port » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:20 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
What is this? A LOGICAL COMPROMISE? IN A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION?! BLASPHEMY


Well, it is not really a compromise - since my version is incompatible with just about all doctrines - AND contradicts the Biblebooks we still have.

But hey. I could always proclaim myself the prophet of a new faith and write a third testament ;)


I get the feeling the Unitarian Universalists beat you to the punch.

There's always a million people with the same idea.
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am

The Rich Port wrote:
South Waxhaw wrote:1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.


You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.
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Dyakovo
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Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
What is this? A LOGICAL COMPROMISE? IN A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION?! BLASPHEMY


Well, it is not really a compromise - since my version is incompatible with just about all doctrines - AND contradicts the Biblebooks we still have.

But hey. I could always proclaim myself the prophet of a new faith and write a third testament ;)

You should totally do it, man...
*nods*
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
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Nullivan
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Postby Nullivan » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:22 am

On the subject of the Original Sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, before eating from the tree Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good and Evil.
Therefore they had no way of knowing that disobeying God and eating from the tree was bad/evil.
The only way they could know that disobeying God was bad was by eating from the tree, which by then made it too late.


The Empire of Nullivan Factbook
The Nullivan National Anthem

Pronunciations
Nullivan - Null-ih-van (The nation itself - The Empire of Nullivan)
Nullivania - Null-ih-van-ya (The people of Nullivan)
Nullivanian Null-ih-vain-ian (Anything belonging to Nullivan - eg. The Nullivanian Empire)
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Erinkita
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Founded: Sep 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Erinkita » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:22 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
What is this? A LOGICAL COMPROMISE? IN A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION?! BLASPHEMY


Well, it is not really a compromise - since my version is incompatible with just about all doctrines - AND contradicts the Biblebooks we still have.

But hey. I could always proclaim myself the prophet of a new faith and write a third testament ;)

:lol: That's how schisms happen.
There are 25 competing denominations.
Someone considers this a terrible state of affairs and creates a new interpretation of the faith that will unite and resolve all of them
There are now 26 competing denominations.
Last edited by Erinkita on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:22 am

Dyakovo wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Well, it is not really a compromise - since my version is incompatible with just about all doctrines - AND contradicts the Biblebooks we still have.

But hey. I could always proclaim myself the prophet of a new faith and write a third testament ;)

You should totally do it, man...
*nods*

It'll keep him off the streets and out of trouble.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Dyakovo
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Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:23 am

Nullivan wrote:On the subject of the Original Sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, before eating from the tree Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good and Evil.
Therefore they had no way of knowing that disobeying God and eating from the tree was bad/evil.
The only way they could know that disobeying God was bad was by eating from the tree, which by then made it too late.

Pretty much what I was saying...
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
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Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
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South Waxhaw
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:23 am

Dyakovo wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

Or design them in such a way as to make it so that they wouldn't betray them... He is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient...

In order to do that He would have compromised their free will. In all honesty I think the reason why He made us this way was to give Himself the most glory
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:24 am

Nullivan wrote:On the subject of the Original Sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, before eating from the tree Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good and Evil.
Therefore they had no way of knowing that disobeying God and eating from the tree was bad/evil.
The only way they could know that disobeying God was bad was by eating from the tree, which by then made it too late.


So, in other words, there would have been no way they would have even considered taking a bite from the apple without having taken a bite from the apple.

I think some Christian or Jewish scribe somewhere sometime dun goof'd.
Last edited by The Rich Port on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:24 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:You should totally do it, man...
*nods*

It'll keep him off the streets and out of trouble.

Or on the streets and in trouble...
Either way, fun to be had by all me...
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
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Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
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Erinkita
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Ex-Nation

Postby Erinkita » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:24 am

Furious Grandmothers wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Yahweh lies a lot in the Bible. In fact, the first thing he ever said to us as a species was a lie.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:25 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
To be fair, it IS possible the story was a tad bit... molested. Perhaps God offered humanity a choice:

A) living as animals in paradise, never learning, never growing, never accomplishing anything - but never knowing misery or loss either

B) Becoming mortals, able to suffer - but also able to grow. And one day, become Gods equal. Or perhaps even more.

and instead of being tempted by the serpent, humans representatives picked B after careful consideration.

Of course, this version does kinda conflict with the whole concept of Dogma certain churches adore so much. It also significantly changes the meaning of the concept of "Sin".

But hey. It makes God a whole lot more likeable.

Altighty let's try to work our way through this. It is interesting though I have yet to hear of any manuscripts backing this... You said in point a. That in escence they'd be bored. Personally I'd disagree. First off I mean you're naked with your spouse there's only so boring that can be. Second you're talking to God I mean any question He'd have the answer. And finally He commands them to take care of the garden. That might keep you from being bored for a while.

You said they probably considered for awhile. That could have been but God told them to be fruitful and increase (read: make kids) so they probably were in there for not all that long if their first kid was after they got booted


Ah - but what if Adam and Eve were... "special" - as in the very un-PC "retarded" ?
Which they probably were, having no knowledge. In fact, they were probably dumber than your average dog.

Hmm. But that makes my whole "they made a careful decision" story invalid as well...

Wait ! God offered them a piece of the fruit, and THEN asked them what they preferred - staying clever, inventive etc - but becoming mortal; or the blissfull ignorance they had.

Yep. Still works ;)
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South Waxhaw
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:28 am

Furious Grandmothers wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Why should you trust the word of God? It boils down to this: it is the only worldviews that acurately explains reality.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:29 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Or design them in such a way as to make it so that they wouldn't betray them... He is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient...

In order to do that He would have compromised their free will. In all honesty I think the reason why He made us this way was to give Himself the most glory

Why? he's omnipotent isn't he?
I think that if the Abrahamaic religions are right that he did it because he's petty, vindictive and cruel...
Either that or really fucking stupid...

He created us to act like we do.
He instates an arbitrary rule knowing full well that it is in our nature (which he designed) to disobey arbitrary rules.
He then punishes us for doing what he not only knew we would do, but designed us to do.

And these are supposedly the actions of a kind, forgiving, loving god...
Some serious mental gymnastics are required to come to that conclusion...
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
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Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
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Nullivan
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Postby Nullivan » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:29 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Furious Grandmothers wrote:This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Why should you trust the word of God? It boils down to this: it is the only worldviews that acurately explains reality.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


The Empire of Nullivan Factbook
The Nullivan National Anthem

Pronunciations
Nullivan - Null-ih-van (The nation itself - The Empire of Nullivan)
Nullivania - Null-ih-van-ya (The people of Nullivan)
Nullivanian Null-ih-vain-ian (Anything belonging to Nullivan - eg. The Nullivanian Empire)
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The Rich Port
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Founded: Jul 29, 2008
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Postby The Rich Port » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:29 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Furious Grandmothers wrote:This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Why should you trust the word of God? It boils down to this: it is the only worldviews that acurately explains reality.


... No it's not.

There's hundreds of other world views that make about as much sense.

That's what RELIGIOUS BELIEFS are.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:31 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Furious Grandmothers wrote:This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Why should you trust the word of God? It boils down to this: it is the only worldviews that acurately explains reality.

How does christianity "accurately explain reality"? :blink:
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!
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South Waxhaw
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Founded: Oct 09, 2010
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:31 am

Erinkita wrote:
Furious Grandmothers wrote:This brings up one of my most major issues with Christianity, as I have stumped many evangelists with, and which none of them could give me a reply to: Why should I trust the word of God? The whole Bible may just be a lie fabricated by God for whatever purposes he means to manipulate us humans for. If you say that he can't possibly lie because he is omni-benevolent, other than the issue that this effectively nullifies his omnipotence as this limits his power, even
worse, it's begging the question: Assuming that he is good just because he called himself good in his own book.

Yahweh lies a lot in the Bible. In fact, the first thing he ever said to us as a species was a lie.

I'm pretty sure people die so idk if that's really a lie
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:34 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Erinkita wrote:Yahweh lies a lot in the Bible. In fact, the first thing he ever said to us as a species was a lie.

I'm pretty sure people die so idk if that's really a lie

But Adam and Eve did not die when they ate the fruit.
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South Waxhaw
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:35 am

Dyakovo wrote:
South Waxhaw wrote:Why should you trust the word of God? It boils down to this: it is the only worldviews that acurately explains reality.

How does christianity "accurately explain reality"? :blink:

To start off let's get all other religions out of the way. They all believe man is basically good. Which is not even close to reality.
Now then atheism: problem of energy coming from non energy- solved: creation. Problem of mans evil: solved: sin nature. Problem of morality: solved: from God
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South Waxhaw
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:37 am

Dyakovo wrote:
South Waxhaw wrote:I'm pretty sure people die so idk if that's really a lie

But Adam and Eve did not die when they ate the fruit.

I don't think He said "you will immediately die" did he?
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Erinkita
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Postby Erinkita » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:37 am

South Waxhaw wrote:
Erinkita wrote:Yahweh lies a lot in the Bible. In fact, the first thing he ever said to us as a species was a lie.

I'm pretty sure people die so idk if that's really a lie

Okay, even if it wasn't an outright lie, it was still deliberately misleading.
If I say "If you look me in the eye, you will die." it's implied that you would die as a result of looking me in the eye. While it's technically true that if you will die if you look me in the eye, the two facts are not in any way related and death will come to you whether you loook at me or not.
Even if what Yahweh said to Adam and Eve was technically the truth, he was obviously trying to give thhem a false impression of the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit.
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South Waxhaw
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Postby South Waxhaw » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:39 am

Wish there were more Christians on this forum I think my fingers are gonna fall off from all this typing
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