Jesus died for you.

[South Waxhaw]

Why? I still find it amazing that we are debating about what they did and not what we have done were talking like we woulda made it if it weren't for Adam and eve

Considering the fact that they did not actually exist, I think its pretty clear that we would make it without them...

We'd make what without them?

[Dyakovo]

Considering the fact that they did not actually exist, I think its pretty clear that we would make it without them...

We'd make what without them?

What?

[The Rich Port]

Considering the fact that they did not actually exist, I think its pretty clear that we would make it without them...

We'd make what without them?

If Adam and Eve never existed historically, archaeologically, or otherwise, the concept of original sin could have never existed.

It would only exist only as a theological construct meant to make one feel guilt and shame for existing. Which, IMO, is not necessary, because we feel plenty of that, God or not.

[Dyakovo]

We'd make what without them?

If Adam and Eve never existed historically, archaeologically, or otherwise, the concept of original sin could have never existed.

Wrong. They didn't exist and yet the concept of original sin exists.

Edit: NVM, you fixed the problem with your statement...

[South Waxhaw]

Why? I still find it amazing that we are debating about what they did and not what we have done were talking like we woulda made it if it weren't for Adam and eve

... Is there something we're NOT getting about Adam and Eve? Because, from what I understand, if they HADN'T taken a bite, we would have been A-OK and we wouldn't even be contemplating sin.

Supposing neither Adam nor Eve nor any of the billions and billions who followed them never ate the fruit... We would as far as I understand it still be in the garden and each day we would be faced with the choice: should we try the fruit and see what happens or just continue looking after the garden. I'll have to look it up but there is a passage that says we would all have done the same as they did

[South Waxhaw]

We'd make what without them?

If Adam and Eve never existed historically, archaeologically, or otherwise, the concept of original sin could have never existed.

It would only exist only as a theological construct meant to make one feel guilt and shame for existing. Which, IMO, is not necessary, because we feel plenty of that, God or not.

You bring up an interesting point. Why do we feel guilt?

[Dyakovo]

... Is there something we're NOT getting about Adam and Eve? Because, from what I understand, if they HADN'T taken a bite, we would have been A-OK and we wouldn't even be contemplating sin.

Supposing neither Adam nor Eve nor any of the billions and billions who followed them never ate the fruit... We would as far as I understand it still be in the garden and each day we would be faced with the choice: should we try the fruit and see what happens or just continue looking after the garden. I'll have to look it up but there is a passage that says we would all have done the same as they supposedly did

Fixed, and of course we would. It's human nature to rebel against arbitrary rules. This is why if Yahweh actually exists and is the omnipotent Creator as the Abrahamaic religions claim he is evil.
He created us as we are, knowing full well that we would eventually violate an arbitrary rule, then once we do he punishes us and everyone ever to come after us for doing what he knew we would do.


Edit: forgot a word...

[The Rich Port]

If Adam and Eve never existed historically, archaeologically, or otherwise, the concept of original sin could have never existed.

It would only exist only as a theological construct meant to make one feel guilt and shame for existing. Which, IMO, is not necessary, because we feel plenty of that, God or not.

You bring up an interesting point. Why do we feel guilt?

Measurably or theoretically?

The former I'd be satisfied with and the latter I'd feel silly discussing.

[South Waxhaw]

Supposing neither Adam nor Eve nor any of the billions and billions who followed them never ate the fruit... We would as far as I understand it still be in the garden and each day we would be faced with the choice: should we try the fruit and see what happens or just continue looking after the garden. I'll have to look it up but there is a passage that says we would all have done the same as they supposedly did

Fized, and of course we would. It's human nature to rebel against arbitrary rules. This is why if Yahweh actually exists and is the omnipotent Creator as the Abrahamaic religions claim he is evil.
He created us as we are, knowing full well that we would eventually violate an arbitrary rule, then once we do he punishes us and everyone ever to come after us for doing what he knew we would do.


Edit: forgot a word...

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil? If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you, dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

[Genivaria]

We'd make what without them?

What?

[South Waxhaw]

You bring up an interesting point. Why do we feel guilt?

Measurably or theoretically?

The former I'd be satisfied with and the latter I'd feel silly discussing.

Sorry I'm not very smart could you please use words that are simple or define your terms? Remember I'm a Christian and therefore a moron

[The Rich Port]

Fized, and of course we would. It's human nature to rebel against arbitrary rules. This is why if Yahweh actually exists and is the omnipotent Creator as the Abrahamaic religions claim he is evil.
He created us as we are, knowing full well that we would eventually violate an arbitrary rule, then once we do he punishes us and everyone ever to come after us for doing what he knew we would do.


Edit: forgot a word...

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil? If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you, dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

Well, up until when Jesus came to us and then descended to Hell, we were automatically being carted off to Hell for being Jews instead of Christians. So, up until Jesus, you could say, under Christian theology, that he did in fact leave us out in the dust.

[Dyakovo]

Fized, and of course we would. It's human nature to rebel against arbitrary rules. This is why if Yahweh actually exists and is the omnipotent Creator as the Abrahamaic religions claim he is evil.
He created us as we are, knowing full well that we would eventually violate an arbitrary rule, then once we do he punishes us and everyone ever to come after us for doing what he knew we would do.


Edit: forgot a word...

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil?¹ If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you,² dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.
2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

[South Waxhaw]

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil? If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you, dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

Well, up until when Jesus came to us and then descended to Hell, we were automatically being carted off to Hell for being Jews instead of Christians. So, up until Jesus, you could say, under Christian theology, that he did in fact leave us out in the dust.

I would disagree. God gave them the sacrificial system. The animals dis not actually bring redemption, otherwise Christ's sacrifice is trite. It was an act representing their faith through obedience, their faith that God would provide a method of salvation (see: Jesus)

[South Waxhaw]

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil?¹ If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you,² dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.


2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.

[Erinkita]

South Waxhaw, if I may, I'd like to discuss with you something that's been bothering me about Christian dogma for quite a few years. No one's been able to give me a satisfactory answer yet, but perhaps you'll be the first. Would you like to try and resolve my problem?

[The Alma Mater]

So you believe that His giving us a choice over our destiny is evil?¹ If God had created us without a way out I would agree with you,² dismiss Him as a sadistic overlord and become an atheist

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.
2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

To be fair, it IS possible the story was a tad bit... molested. Perhaps God offered humanity a choice:

A) living as animals in paradise, never learning, never growing, never accomplishing anything - but never knowing misery or loss either
B) Becoming mortals, able to suffer - but also able to grow. And one day, become Gods equal. Or perhaps even more.

and instead of being tempted by the serpent, humanities representatives picked B after careful consideration.

Of course, this version does kinda conflict with the whole concept of Dogma certain churches adore so much. It also significantly changes the meaning of the concept of "Sin".

But hey. It makes God a whole lot more likeable.

[South Waxhaw]

South Waxhaw, if I may, I'd like to discuss with you something that's been bothering me about Christian dogma for quite a few years. No one's been able to give me a satisfactory answer yet, but perhaps you'll be the first. Would you like to try and resolve my problem?

I can't promise anything further than I will try my best. If I don't know I'll research and telegram you what I find.

[The Rich Port]

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.


2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.

You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

[Candalia]

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.


2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.

Why didn't god kill Lucifer and instead just cast him out of heaven?

By casting him out god himself created all evil, which contradicts god wanting to destroy all evil.

[Erinkita]

South Waxhaw, if I may, I'd like to discuss with you something that's been bothering me about Christian dogma for quite a few years. No one's been able to give me a satisfactory answer yet, but perhaps you'll be the first. Would you like to try and resolve my problem?

I can't promise anything further than I will try my best. If I don't know I'll research and telegram you what I find.

Thank you. I'll TG you in a moment.

[Dyakovo]

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.


2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.

1: One problem with that (well, okay more than one...): Yahweh did not send Yeshua to inform people of how it really works until (at minimum) thousands of years after punishing Adam and Eve for doing what he knew they would do...
2a: Yes. If Yahweh created us, then he also designed human nature. Thus he created us to break the arbitrary rule (remember - supposedly Adam & Eve didn't know right from wrong) of not eating the fruit.
2b: And if there was any choice it was "act in the way they were designed to act" or "not act in the way they were designed to act".

[Dyakovo]

1) Choice to trust His word when he says Christ's death is enough

2) He made us to do? Adam and Eve had a choice... It's not like God forced the fruit down their throats.

You are begging the question.

We cannot trust God's word because he is trustworthy.

Like Dyakovo said, if God is omnipotent, and intends to do nothing but good, he knew Adam and Eve would betray Him. Why didn't he stop them?

Or design them in such a way as to make it so that they wouldn't betray them... He is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient...

[The Rich Port]

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.
2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

To be fair, it IS possible the story was a tad bit... molested. Perhaps God offered humanity a choice:

A) living as animals in paradise, never learning, never growing, never accomplishing anything - but never knowing misery or loss either
B) Becoming mortals, able to suffer - but also able to grow. And one day, become Gods equal. Or perhaps even more.

and instead of being tempted by the serpent, humanities representatives picked B after careful consideration.

Of course, this version does kinda conflict with the whole concept of Dogma certain churches adore so much. It also significantly changes the meaning of the concept of "Sin".

But hey. It makes God a whole lot more likeable.

What is this? A LOGICAL COMPROMISE? IN A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION?! BLASPHEMY

That sounds about right. If God is any sort of Godly, I think he intended us to "fuck up", if we can really call it that. Despite our problems, I think we could be doing a lot worse.

[South Waxhaw]

1: What choice? He knew what would happen and in fact set it up to happen that and then punishes Adam & Eve and all of their descendants for doing what he engineered to happen.
2: He did. He created the situation knowing exactly what would happen and then punishes for doing what he made us to do.

To be fair, it IS possible the story was a tad bit... molested. Perhaps God offered humanity a choice:

A) living as animals in paradise, never learning, never growing, never accomplishing anything - but never knowing misery or loss either

B) Becoming mortals, able to suffer - but also able to grow. And one day, become Gods equal. Or perhaps even more.

and instead of being tempted by the serpent, humans representatives picked B after careful consideration.

Of course, this version does kinda conflict with the whole concept of Dogma certain churches adore so much. It also significantly changes the meaning of the concept of "Sin".

But hey. It makes God a whole lot more likeable.

Altighty let's try to work our way through this. It is interesting though I have yet to hear of any manuscripts backing this... You said in point a. That in escence they'd be bored. Personally I'd disagree. First off I mean you're naked with your spouse there's only so boring that can be. Second you're talking to God I mean any question He'd have the answer. And finally He commands them to take care of the garden. That might keep you from being bored for a while.

You said they probably considered for awhile. That could have been but God told them to be fruitful and increase (read: make kids) so they probably were in there for not all that long if their first kid was after they got booted