Jesus died for you.

[Ashmoria]

yeah im not interested in your evangelism. i was responding to your post about pascals wager.

do you really think that god as you understand him would be fooled by someone who pretended to believe so that she could get the goodies in heaven? doesnt he require ACTUAL belief?

yes thats what i am saying that even on "your" playing field Christianity makes more sense!

You arent "evangelizing?"

no im discussing the issues raised in the thread. im not trying to convert anyone to my point of view.

and *I* am saying that if you take GOD out of the equation there is no particular upside to being a christian--maybe it gets you better business contacts but im not in business.

[Dyakovo]

Your both upsetting the (lack of) balance here...
*escorts them to the door*

Don't tase them bro.

*tases them out of spite*

[Genivaria]

Don't tase them bro.

*tases them out of spite*

Thats not nice.

[Erinkita]

Wait... someone actually brought up Pascal's wager? With a straight face presumably? How can anyone take that ridiculos proposition even remotely seriously? It's one of the stupidest things otherwise intelligent people have ever come up with.

[Dyakovo]

*tases them out of spite*

Thats not nice.

And?
*tases Gen just to watch him twitch*

[Dyakovo]

Wait... someone actually brought up Pascal's wager?¹ With a straight face presumably?² How can anyone take that ridiculos proposition even remotely seriously?³ It's one of the stupidest things otherwise intelligent people have ever come up with.

1: Yup. Not really all that uncommon around here...
2: He seemed to genuinely believe it was a good argument, yes.
3: Because they have nothing else to support their belief?

[Genivaria]

Thats not nice.

And?
*tases Gen just to watch him twitch*

GARRR!! Oh its on now. *shoots Dyakovo with rubber bullets*

[Dyakovo]

And?
*tases Gen just to watch him twitch*

GARRR!! Oh its on now. *shoots Dyakovo with rubber bullets*

*enjoys*

[Genivaria]

GARRR!! Oh its on now. *shoots Dyakovo with rubber bullets*

*enjoys*

*It has no effect* FUCK!

[South Waxhaw]

So was the original topic question that of original sin?

[Genivaria]

So was the original topic question that of original sin?

Right, back to topic.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

[The Rich Port]

Now that we might be getting back on topic, I'd like to re-bring-attention-to my feeble attempt to re-topic-ize a few posts back.

Anyway, even after reading this thread, I still don't understand why what two horny dorks did to get expulsed from paradise has anything to do with us.

[South Waxhaw]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?
3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a
lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

1) You say the game is rigged against you. That is true, but you have (since we are assuming the Bible is correct) Adam and Eve to blame for that. God gave them a choice and they screwed over humanity. By the way u daresay we've all done enough wrong by ourselves to deserve death

2) you are both correct and wrong here. Fits sin is worthy of death because God is holy therefore he cannot stand evil therefore he must eventually destroy it. With the whole sin thing, all sin is equal in that it separates us from God. However as one can see in the OT it is not equal on that it merits deferential punishments.

3) There has always in OT/NT needed to be a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. Thus since we are not perfect, someone else had to be perfect instead. Here is where Jesus comes in. Is his sacrifices fair? Not really, but if God chooses to be merciful Im fine with that.

4) Now with the pointless ritual argument. To quote I believe Romans "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins". God requires a blood for redemption. Thus the crucifixion is anything but obsolete.

Any further questions I will answer as best I can. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I will try. I would love to hear what you believe as well

[South Waxhaw]

Now that we might be getting back on topic, I'd like to re-bring-attention-to my feeble attempt to re-topic-ize a few posts back.

Anyway, even after reading this thread, I still don't understand why what two horny dorks did to get expulsed from paradise has anything to do with us.

It was a good try, but people only retopicize if a new Christian comes on because they want to show him he's a fool

[Nullivan]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

You are punished for the Original Sin of Adam and Eve because

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

[The Rich Port]

Now that we might be getting back on topic, I'd like to re-bring-attention-to my feeble attempt to re-topic-ize a few posts back.

It was a good try, but people only retopicize if a new Christian comes on because they want to show him he's a fool

Unfortunately, they (and by that big cross on your flag, I'd say you) make easy targets.

[South Waxhaw]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in
such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

You are punished for the Original Sin of Adam and Eve because

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord
God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

Another passage on this topic: Romans 5:12-21

[South Waxhaw]

It was a good try, but people only retopicize if a new Christian comes on because they want to show him he's a fool

Unfortunately, they (and by that big cross on your flag, I'd say you) make easy targets.

I won't argue with that statement. All worldviews have their weakness but a lot of Christians don't know where the weaknesses in other worldviews are

[The Rich Port]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

You are punished for the Original Sin of Adam and Eve because

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

So, he's punishing us for what two a-hols did. Got it.

WHY?

Unfortunately, they (and by that big cross on your flag, I'd say you) make easy targets.

I won't argue with that statement. All worldviews have their weakness but a lot of Christians don't know where the weaknesses in other worldviews are

Huh.

Uncharacteristically worldly of you. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[Dyakovo]

You are punished for the Original Sin of Adam and Eve because

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

So, he's punishing us for what two a-hols did. Got it.

WHY?

Because he is vindictive and petty?

[South Waxhaw]

Why? I still find it amazing that we are debating about what they did and not what we have done were talking like we woulda made it if it weren't for Adam and eve

[Dyakovo]

Why? I still find it amazing that we are debating about what they did and not what we have done were talking like we woulda made it if it weren't for Adam and eve

Considering the fact that they did not actually exist, I think its pretty clear that we would make it without them...

[The Rich Port]

Why? I still find it amazing that we are debating about what they did and not what we have done were talking like we woulda made it if it weren't for Adam and eve

... Is there something we're NOT getting about Adam and Eve? Because, from what I understand, if they HADN'T taken a bite, we would have been A-OK and we wouldn't even be contemplating sin.

[Noders]

this whole thing reminds me of billboards i just saw coming through Indiana
one side
Jesus is real
Opposite side
Hell is real
then the woozy was a few miles away some one put up a sign that said
So? Your Father's Real too.
opposite side
Well maybe not if your Jesus then your mom just got raped.
.......................XD

[The Rich Port]

this whole thing reminds me of billboards i just saw coming through Indiana
one side
Jesus is real
Opposite side
Hell is real
then the woozy was a few miles away some one put up a sign that said
So? Your Father's Real too.
opposite side
Well maybe not if your Jesus then your mom just got raped.
.......................XD

Huh.

Good thing you reposted that.

That is sum funnies right thar.