Jesus died for you.

[Irkenland]

Human morality is entirely possible without a God, due to the fact we are intelligent and sentinent... it goes a lot deeper than that

In a non-theistic worldview, morals are subjective and relative and therefore there is no true moral basis for anything because morals are simply made-up.

but this one has been done to death countless times, and often it ends with the religious side simply refusing to listen to any logical argument

As for historians agreeing that Jesus existed... typical religious logic.

Don't get arrogant now, oi.

Historians agree that there were several people at the time who claimed to the Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth is not mentioned by name, but all the same, Christians see "Agree there was a man claiming to be the Messiah." and say "OMG PROOF OF JESUS!!!"

And may I see these people? Firstly, there are legitimate sources

Babylonian Talmud - Jewish accounts of crucifixion of one man named Jesus. Unless all those who claimed to be the Messiah were called YESHUA which is almost impossible

Tacticus wrote about a man, not a group of men. Grammatically, he referred to ONE person who probably stood out from all the rest(Tacticus, Annals 15.44 ). If he was serious about his work, he would've mentioned them too.

Flavius Josephus also wrote about "Jesus, brother of James." Here again: this time with a relation, and thus with a reference. He also talked about the Crucifixion of the same man. Another Jesus. Man, there were lots of Jesuses back then.

Secondly - Nobody wants to die a horrible death defending a some guy who does not give them any earthly benefit in the first place. St.Peter the First Pope and St.Paul the Non-Believer turned Apostle and all the other dudes with Him had suffered terrible deaths such as stoning, crucifixion, being skinned alive just because they said what they believed was true. Would you die a horrible death for what you know was a lie? I think not.

You may question his divinity, but you may not question his existence as guy who once roamed the Middle East.

[Ashmoria]

:lol: Im a christian, but why dont you attack hindus, Bhuddists,Muslims,Jews,Taoists,or pagans? Why only us? Why only christians? Are you afraid of us, perhaps?

now and then someone has a question about buddhism similar to the one that started this thread.

but we dont have many buddhists here or many people who understand buddhism.

so it doesnt last long.

[Haider Askari]

Jesus did'nt die. He will come back. A person resembling to jesus was killed.

Inter Services Intelligence.

[Irkenland]

Jesus did'nt die. He will come back. A person resembling to jesus was killed.
Inter Services Intelligence.

You gotta trust these guys.

[Haider Askari]

Jesus did'nt die. He will come back. A person resembling to jesus was killed.
Inter Services Intelligence.

You gotta trust these guys.

I am not telling a lie. You'll see in the future.

[Drackonisa]

As for the slaughter, Herod was a creep. He did a lot of things, like killing members of his own family. It's reasonable to believe that something like this could have occurred, especially if he regarded it as a threat to his power. You have to keep in mind, how many new-born children like Jesus would be in Bethlehem at the time? Bethlehem was a small place...not that many. It probably didn't make empire-wide news if you will, if something like this did indeed occur. Not to mention the likely hood Herod may have destroyed records of it, along with other atrocities he committed. So a lack of evidence is not a valid argument in this case. Cause for suspicion? Certainly. But not outright disproval.

And we do have a historical account. The Bible.

ahh yes, the bible. talking snakes, the world is 6000 yrs old, the world is flat, bats are birds, leprosy is highly contagious, gays shall be stoned, women cant talk in church, god is perfect, divorce is a no-no, multiple wives are ok, slavery is ok, beating slaves is ok so long as they dont die, if a woman cheats she is executed, if a man cheats, new wife (could be wrong bout that one) and also, the big one...

god created light before he created the sun.

multiple wives are ok in christianity? I always thought they were like against sex or something. Or is that only limited to certain groups of christians? I profess to have little knowledge of christianity.

o.O

[Furious Grandmothers]

You gotta trust these guys.

I am not telling a lie. You'll see in the future.

Dammit, Governator died for us. You said that he'll be back? In the future?

[Warbunnia]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

1. Because God is petty and vengeful, he hates you right off the bat. Plus, birth is a messy, ugly sight, so he has to punish you for that mess.
2. It isn't that he doesn't see the difference; he just doesn't care. He is looking to punish people for any reason, as this is the only form of entertainment he has left. Also, in godly terms, he is a young god, so he hasn't grown to the maturity of, say, a Zeus.
3. Clearly, you transfer your sin into the things the kill, much like AIDS transfers to the little girls you rape according to some "men" in Africa. Also, no animal is innocent. All of them looked at god sideways one day and gave him the stink eye. And God hates the stink eye.
4. One of the advantages of being all-powerful is never making a mistake. Never. Since logic dictates that if we are born with sin, we were not made perfectly, it would mean our creator was not perfect. Which means we were not created by god. In reality, we were created by god's half-brother, Pluh, who has down syndrome. And God likes to mess with Pluh by stomping on his toys, like any brother would do to his retarded half-brother.

As an aside, using logic or rational thought to question any god is pointless: logic dictates there can exist no all-powerful being which can interact with this universe. And if it exists outside this universe, then: 1) humans are not that "special" of a creation, 2) god does not interact with us (thus, Einstein's no personal god comment would be correct), and 3) it would follow that there are either more than one god or that god was, itself, created, leading to a never-ending cycle of creators.

[Ashmoria]

ahh yes, the bible. talking snakes, the world is 6000 yrs old, the world is flat, bats are birds, leprosy is highly contagious, gays shall be stoned, women cant talk in church, god is perfect, divorce is a no-no, multiple wives are ok, slavery is ok, beating slaves is ok so long as they dont die, if a woman cheats she is executed, if a man cheats, new wife (could be wrong bout that one) and also, the big one...

god created light before he created the sun.

multiple wives are ok in christianity? I always thought they were like against sex or something. Or is that only limited to certain groups of christians? I profess to have little knowledge of christianity.

o.O

generally not.

but THE BIBLE has polygamy in it. that was the point that drackonisa was making. christians dont like polygamy but the bible loves it.

[Irkenland]

multiple wives are ok in christianity? I always thought they were like against sex or something. Or is that only limited to certain groups of christians? I profess to have little knowledge of christianity.
o.O

A common misinterpretation by critics of Christianity is the idea that what one sect believes is what the whole religion believes in, don't worry - you acknowledged that there are certain groups. Few sects believe in polygamy(multiple wives). One example is the Church of Latter Day Saints, better-known as Mormons. You may notice they're radically different from Catholics, who are radically different from those many soul-music Christian groups.

[Southern Patriots]

Ugh, this "Jesus died for you" stuff.

Every time I see it or hear it, it makes me glad I'm Jewish and don't have to play along with it.

[Drackonisa]

multiple wives are ok in christianity? I always thought they were like against sex or something. Or is that only limited to certain groups of christians? I profess to have little knowledge of christianity.
o.O

A common misinterpretation by critics of Christianity is the idea that what one sect believes is what the whole religion believes in, don't worry - you acknowledged that there are certain groups. Few sects believe in polygamy(multiple wives). One example is the Church of Latter Day Saints, better-known as Mormons. You may notice they're radically different from Catholics, who are radically different from those many soul-music Christian groups.

Soul music? I know a number of catholic friends though, they are by far the most common ones in Singapore, i also know a couple of anglican friends but thats about it. Jehova Witness is a banned religion here. I suppose the Mormons is a western thing? Never had any of them around here.

[Cain-el Baek]

Even if Christianity is fake christians have more to hope for than atheists. Also if we are wrong we just die(like atheists believe they will), if we are right we go to heaven, if you are wrong you go to hell. Even on a logical level Christianity makes more sense than atheism. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Of course it is a lot deeper than that.

Just keep an open mind, please.

[Ashmoria]

A common misinterpretation by critics of Christianity is the idea that what one sect believes is what the whole religion believes in, don't worry - you acknowledged that there are certain groups. Few sects believe in polygamy(multiple wives). One example is the Church of Latter Day Saints, better-known as Mormons. You may notice they're radically different from Catholics, who are radically different from those many soul-music Christian groups.

Soul music? I know a number of catholic friends though, they are by far the most common ones in Singapore, i also know a couple of anglican friends but thats about it. Jehova Witness is a banned religion here. I suppose the Mormons is a western thing? Never had any of them around here.

oh you are really missing out.

if you visit the US and have time you should drop into one or 2 of our pentacostal and/or "black" churches. its a whole different religious experience.

[Ashmoria]

Even if Christianity is fake christians have more to hope for than atheists. Also if we are wrong we just die(like atheists believe they will), if we are right we go to heaven, if you are wrong you go to hell. Even on a logical level Christianity makes more sense than atheism. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Of course it is a lot deeper than that.

Just keep an open mind, please.

but given the tiny possibility of any particular christian sect being right isnt the believer paying too high a price in THIS life for his chance of fooling a probably nonexistent god in the next?

[Dyakovo]

source, please!
there is no actual evidence. exactly.

Josephus in Antiquities¹, the Roman historian Tacitus in Annals and Pliny the Younger² in his letter written in 112 to Emperor Trajan. All historians and officials that say Jesus existed.

1: Forgery, sorry.
2: Both talk about christians, not christ.

[Drackonisa]

Soul music? I know a number of catholic friends though, they are by far the most common ones in Singapore, i also know a couple of anglican friends but thats about it. Jehova Witness is a banned religion here. I suppose the Mormons is a western thing? Never had any of them around here.

oh you are really missing out.

if you visit the US and have time you should drop into one or 2 of our pentacostal and/or "black" churches. its a whole different religious experience.

heheh, i am an atheist myself. But i did attend church in the past as a family event thing, my parents are catholics. Back when i was a kid, the priest would give us sweets. That was like 20 years ago though. The sermons are boring as heck though.

[Irkenland]

A common misinterpretation by critics of Christianity is the idea that what one sect believes is what the whole religion believes in, don't worry - you acknowledged that there are certain groups. Few sects believe in polygamy(multiple wives). One example is the Church of Latter Day Saints, better-known as Mormons. You may notice they're radically different from Catholics, who are radically different from those many soul-music Christian groups.

Soul music? I know a number of catholic friends though, they are by far the most common ones in Singapore, i also know a couple of anglican friends but thats about it. Jehova Witness is a banned religion here. I suppose the Mormons is a western thing? Never had any of them around here.

Whoah, whoah, what..? JW, banned? Well, anyway, about Mormons.

Once upon a time, in 1830s America there was a guy named Joseph Smith. He was confused about which sect he'd join so he went out to the groves and prayed. He then received a vision from Christ who said he shouldn't join any of them. Then, an angel appeared to him telling him to go to a nearby hill and dug out a book written on gold plates. He then claimed to have translated it, though I'm not clear as to how he did it. Next thing you know, he started a new form of Christianity - Mormonism with the Book of Mormon(the one he translated) as its cornerstone.

[Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

Of course it doesn't make any sense, its a load of nonsense.

Christian doctrine is so horrendously unfair because it was formed by a human-hating self-pitying medieval clergy that thought that man was a despicable and disgusting result accident.

This

[Ashmoria]

oh you are really missing out.

if you visit the US and have time you should drop into one or 2 of our pentacostal and/or "black" churches. its a whole different religious experience.

heheh, i am an atheist myself. But i did attend church in the past as a family event thing, my parents are catholics. Back when i was a kid, the priest would give us sweets. That was like 20 years ago though. The sermons are boring as heck though.

aye

but pentacostal services are not boring. they are as utterly unlike a catholic mass as you can get and still be christian. (gotta go to the right one. there must be SOME boring pentacostal preachers)

[Drackonisa]

Soul music? I know a number of catholic friends though, they are by far the most common ones in Singapore, i also know a couple of anglican friends but thats about it. Jehova Witness is a banned religion here. I suppose the Mormons is a western thing? Never had any of them around here.

Whoah, whoah, what..? JW, banned? Well, anyway, about Mormons.

Once upon a time, in 1830s America there was a guy named Joseph Smith. He was confused about which sect he'd join so he went out to the groves and prayed. He then received a vision from Christ who said he shouldn't join any of them. Then, an angel appeared to him telling him to go to a nearby hill and dug out a book written on gold plates. He then claimed to have translated it, though I'm not clear as to how he did it. Next thing you know, he started a new form of Christianity - Mormonism with the Book of Mormon(the one he translated) as its cornerstone.

Ehh...you can just create random religions in the US?

And yes, JW is banned in Singapore as they refuse to salute the national flag or do their national service(NS). They are generally sent to detention barracks for 3 years, 1 year longer than if they would actually serve their conscription heheh. Not that i am against that of course, it isn't fair if they can skip out on national service because of so called 'religious beliefs'. If we have to sacrifice 2 years of our lives to serve the nation, i sure as hell will not tolerate anyone skipping out.

[Cain-el Baek]

Even if Christianity is fake christians have more to hope for than atheists. Also if we are wrong we just die(like atheists believe they will), if we are right we go to heaven, if you are wrong you go to hell. Even on a logical level Christianity makes more sense than atheism. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Of course it is a lot deeper than that.

Just keep an open mind, please.

but given the tiny possibility of any particular christian sect being right isnt the believer paying too high a price in THIS life for his chance of fooling a probably nonexistent god in the next?

Too high a price? What really is here that is worth living for if not Christ? Sex? Money? Power? You cant take those beyond the grave! If you had a chance(tiny possibility) of going to paradise for eternity woudn't you at least give it a shot?

You lose nothing and gain everything!
Thanks for discussing it though!

[Drackonisa]

heheh, i am an atheist myself. But i did attend church in the past as a family event thing, my parents are catholics. Back when i was a kid, the priest would give us sweets. That was like 20 years ago though. The sermons are boring as heck though.

aye

but pentacostal services are not boring. they are as utterly unlike a catholic mass as you can get and still be christian. (gotta go to the right one. there must be SOME boring pentacostal preachers)

I just googled them, pentacostal is those singing and dancing churches right? Resembles more a concert than a formal religious event though. I assume it appeals to the younger generation, since it seems to lack the heavy speeches.

[Drackonisa]

but given the tiny possibility of any particular christian sect being right isnt the believer paying too high a price in THIS life for his chance of fooling a probably nonexistent god in the next?

Too high a price? What really is here that is worth living for if not Christ? Sex? Money? Power? You cant take those beyond the grave! If you had a chance(tiny possibility) of going to paradise for eternity woudn't you at least give it a shot?

You lose nothing and gain everything!
Thanks for discussing it though!

Thats why we live life to the fullest. Because once your dead, thats it. Game over. So indulge and enjoy every minute of your life, pretty much the way I see it.

[The Yoke of Oppression]

Josephus in Antiquities, the Roman historian Tacitus in Annals and Pliny the Younger in his letter written in 112 to Emperor Trajan. All historians and officials that say Jesus existed.

Most historians agree that the account of Josephus was at least partially faked by later christian authors, but even if that is not so, it is still not a first-hand account as Josephus did not meet Jesus (he lived after jesus's supposed lifetime). So if it is even legitimate- and that is in doubt- it only demonstrates the existence of ancient Christians. The story is the same with Pliny- his letter referred to people worshiping a man named Christus, that is all. He never met the man, nor could have, since he lived after the supposed time of Jesus. There's no direct historical account of Jesus- but even if there were, the historicity of a messianic figure wouldn't demonstrate its divinity. We have historical accounts of people worshipping Pagan Gods as well. And there are people who claim to be the Messiah alive today. There have been numerous messianic figures throughout history. I've heard of at least three or four in my own lifetime, and that's only counting those who model themselves after Christ, and claim to be the living son of the Abrahamic God.

First of all, omnipotence does not necessarily mean he can see everything. It means someone can do anything WHICH IS POSSIBLE TO DO. Secondly, God is more of "knows the consequences of your actions" kind of guy. A Master Deducter than a far-seer. If our actions our set, then there is no freedom which is an important concept of the Judeo-Christian God.

That's not the party line, sir. The Christian God is inerrant, omnipotent, and omniscient. As far as I'm concerned, you're free to disagree- but then you're no longer talking about the Abrahamic God, you've made up your own deity (which is what I suspect most cultural Christians do- reject the dogma in their own hearts and minds, while keeping the handy title).

This is a common, angry atheist's concept. Should we blame HIM? He gave us Freedom to choose and with the ability to choose, comes the probability of evil. Angry as some people are at Him, they refuse to look at themselves and try to uphold moral good. If there is Evil, there must be some reference to define it and that which is called Good. From a moralistic standpoint, the concept of God is compatible, even complimentary to Him.

If there were no God, there'd be NO MEANING AND TRUE MORAL BASIS. This wouldn't give us the right to call ANYTHING EVIL OR GOOD, so I'm not even sure why atheists argue about this when morals are realistically UNTRUE to them.

This idea is both stupid and dangerous. There is obviously a basis for morality outside of belief in and adherence to the sacred books of the Abrahamic God(s)- we can deduce this from the presence of moral behavior in people who don't believe in God, including in pre-monotheistic cultures. The basis of the claim that God determines morality is the claim of divine authority; but we make moral decisions independent of the divine mandates in the sacred texts. We often refute the mandated behaviors- most of us no longer stone adulterers, burn witches, or practice genocide. If the divinely authorized texts are fallacious, the claim of divine authority is fallacious, and there is no basis for claiming that morality comes from the proposed divine source. Many fundamentalist theologians recognize this, which is why there's still a big fight on against evolution- sophisticated Christians realize that if their Bible isn't true, they're got a serious philosophical problem. But even fundamentalists frequently reject biblical moral mandates.

And it's a good thing, because when people DON'T broadly reject morality from divine authority in favor of their own moral reasoning, something which the bible explicitly tells us not to do, societies revert to the barbaric and primitive iron age practices of the barbaric and primitive iron age people who decided upon the barbaric, primitive, mixed and often conflicting iron age moral lessons that should be reflected in the barbaric and primitive iron age fairy tales that would become, with modification over time, the Bible, the Hebrew Bible, and the Quran (muslims, btw, are fond of the claim the the Quran's modern form is unaltered from the time of Muhammad, and the direct word of the prophet- but that's a false claim, all of the books have clearly been rewritten over time). In the western world, we almost universally reject the harsh treatment of women under Sharia law, in Islamic theocracies- but they are far more authentic in the practice of divine morality than western Christians, who are mostly hypocrites, liars, or fools if they claim to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of the lord and the source of moral truth. Those who are not hypocrites are such despicable people that they usually end up dead or in jail, because their practices fly in the face of western morality and law.

Now, the claim is sometimes made that God inspires morality in our hearts, but this is a rejection of Christian dogma. The conventional answer to the problem of Evil indicates this: God clearly doesn't give us a moral sense, that's why we piss him off so much, and he just has no choice but to go around smiting us with hurricanes and AIDS. If you believe that you can safely ignore the Bible, because god puts good in your heart, or that people are good without the Bible because of God, then you're not really a Christian- you're a Deist. That philosophy was once called Atheism by the Church, and not without reason: it's a rejection of the divine authority of the Abrahamic God, as spelled out in the sacred books of the religions that worship him- it is, in relation to the Abrahamic God, an atheistic worldview.