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Moneyana
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Postby Moneyana » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:56 pm

Sjovenia wrote:
Tiami wrote:But you're supposed to stay on topic. If you want to talk about Mars, make a Mars thread.

Talking about Mars is more on topic then the whole ATV racing on the moon. Maybe you should look at yourself before you correct other people? Just saying hypocrite...I'm also a hypocrite in fact every one is. And by the way i realized what i did and before you quoted me i had actually corrected my grammar. :p


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Wiztopia
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Postby Wiztopia » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:09 pm

Tiami wrote:
Sjovenia wrote:Talking about Mars is more on topic then the whole ATV racing on the moon. Maybe you should look at yourself before you correct other people? Just saying hypocrite...I'm also a hypocrite in fact every one is. And by the way i realized what i did and before you quoted me i had actually corrected my grammar. :p

ATV also contributes transportation to sites on the Moon. It's not too far off topic unlike Mars is. But seriously, this will turn into thread jack if we continue this conversation.


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Useran
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Postby Useran » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:11 pm

Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.

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Set the Unbound
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Postby Set the Unbound » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:16 pm

Useran wrote:Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.


If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...
Last edited by Set the Unbound on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:54 pm

Sjovenia wrote:
Tiami wrote:But you're supposed to stay on topic. If you want to talk about Mars, make a Mars thread.

Talking about Mars is more on topic then the whole ATV racing on the moon. Maybe you should look at yourself before you correct other people? Just saying hypocrite...I'm also a hypocrite in fact every one is. And by the way i realized what i did and before you quoted me i had actually corrected my grammar. :p


Speaking as somebody who got her first ATV for her fifth birthday, ATV riding on the moon would be...

... interesting.
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The lepearchauns
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Postby The lepearchauns » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:40 pm

Last I read, there were plans to build a massive telescope on the moons surface for deep space observation(the earths atmosphere obscures the photos thus why hubble exists), but it would be unmanned
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President Mathias
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Postby President Mathias » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:55 pm

Set the Unbound wrote:
Useran wrote:Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.


If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...

Actually, Bush paid for the Iraq and Afghan Wars with his income tax cuts in '03. I know it doesn't sound right, but if you look closely, the results of these cuts lead to more people purchasing. Sales tax on items plus the increased revenue on housing paid for the wars. It's too bad he didn't take that cowboy "I'm in charge" attitude with Congress. Had he stopped Congress from overspending he would've paid for the wars and set the government in the green for a few years. (Not get rid of our debt, but get rid of the deficit.)

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Set the Unbound
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Postby Set the Unbound » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:17 am

President Mathias wrote:Actually, Bush paid for the Iraq and Afghan Wars with his income tax cuts in '03. I know it doesn't sound right, but if you look closely, the results of these cuts lead to more people purchasing. Sales tax on items plus the increased revenue on housing paid for the wars. It's too bad he didn't take that cowboy "I'm in charge" attitude with Congress. Had he stopped Congress from overspending he would've paid for the wars and set the government in the green for a few years. (Not get rid of our debt, but get rid of the deficit.)



What percentage of the Bush-era tax cuts for high income earners was invested in productive, tax-paying assets within the United States?

For this percentage (not spent on short-term consumption and not invested in a tax haven or an emerging market outside the USA), what was the average inflation-adjusted ROI and tax paid?

If you can't provide a source, then I must assume you are making it all up... ;)

It is often said (equally carelessly) that NASA returns $3 in new technologies for every dollar spent on it. So investing $5 trillion on NASA should pay off the whole US federal debt, amirite?
Last edited by Set the Unbound on Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:01 am

President Mathias wrote:
Set the Unbound wrote:
If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...

Actually, Bush paid for the Iraq and Afghan Wars with his income tax cuts in '03. I know it doesn't sound right, but if you look closely, the results of these cuts lead to more people purchasing. Sales tax on items plus the increased revenue on housing paid for the wars. It's too bad he didn't take that cowboy "I'm in charge" attitude with Congress. Had he stopped Congress from overspending he would've paid for the wars and set the government in the green for a few years. (Not get rid of our debt, but get rid of the deficit.)


Source that shit.
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AiliailiA
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Postby AiliailiA » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:05 am

President Mathias wrote:
Set the Unbound wrote:
If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...

Actually, Bush paid for the Iraq and Afghan Wars with his income tax cuts in '03. I know it doesn't sound right, but if you look closely, the results of these cuts lead to more people purchasing.


No, that doesn't sound right, but I'll "look closely" if you give me something to look at which supports the claim.

Sales tax on items plus the increased revenue on housing paid for the wars.


Sales taxes are State, so they can't "pay for" a federal war. What you mean by "revenue in housing" I'm not sure, but if you're saying the housing bubble was a good thing I have to wonder what rock you've been living under these last four years.

It's too bad he didn't take that cowboy "I'm in charge" attitude with Congress. Had he stopped Congress from overspending he would've paid for the wars and set the government in the green for a few years. (Not get rid of our debt, but get rid of the deficit.)


When it comes down to it, the veto is the only power the President has over Congress. So that's why he didn't stop them "overspending" ...

Actually, if you look at this graph, it's hard to see any spending increase. But damn easy to see the drop-off in revenue, and subsequent recovery of revenue from tax cuts (but not, per your earlier claim, an overall increase):



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Set the Unbound
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Postby Set the Unbound » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:07 am

Nooo, the Moon Base has been buried under tax arguments, and its partly my fault! :eek:

Do tax arguments block incoming radiation?
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Naurobia
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Postby Naurobia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:28 am

We had enough money to make 3 moon landings in the cold war but combined they costed the equivalent of 450 billion dollars in todays money and we just simply didn't have a scientific reason to go back although I have read about proposals to build a moon colony but I doubt we will be leaving earth for a long time thanks to the budget crisis and recession.
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Zanarkenisia
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Postby Zanarkenisia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:19 am

Naurobia wrote:We had enough money to make 3 moon landings in the cold war but combined they costed the equivalent of 450 billion dollars in todays money and we just simply didn't have a scientific reason to go back although I have read about proposals to build a moon colony but I doubt we will be leaving earth for a long time thanks to the budget crisis and recession.

Preservation of our species isn't good enough?

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Cameroi
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Postby Cameroi » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:23 am

someone needs to start a rumor there's oil on the moon.

(if preservation of the species was good enough, we'd not only have been on our way beyond our solar system decades ago, we'd be using wind and solar instead of burning oil and coal, and that starting decades ago too. not to mention little things like there never would have been a middle ages, nor the fanatics who burned that library that started them)
Last edited by Cameroi on Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:46 pm

Set the Unbound wrote:Nooo, the Moon Base has been buried under tax arguments, and its partly my fault! :eek:

Do tax arguments block incoming radiation?


:rofl:

I'm so gonna sig this.

Set the Unbound wrote:
Useran wrote:Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.


If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...


Indeed. :clap: :bow:

Useran wrote:Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.


We will never have the cash unless our country invests in something (AKA space program with a focus on returning to the moon, and going even further). Not spending anything isn't the way to fix something. Spending on things that provide a good return is.

The current economic crisis is very much a repeat of the Great Depression. Therefore, government spending on programs very New Deal-esque are essential. But instead of building the Hoover Dam, we should build the Bush Station (hehe...took the idea from how Hoover was unpopular in the early Depression).

Besides, moving our economy to focus on manned space travel will require the need for people with superior education, giving an excuse to increase spending in that area as well. Even if the space initiative won't defibrilate our economy, the more educated population will have a better chance of figuring out a way to fix it themselves (I still don't get why the fuck politicians keep diverting funds away from schools, which is pretty much the exact opposite solution to every single major issue that faces America today).

Sociobiology wrote:We need radio telescopes on the dark side of the moon, it is the most radio quiet place in the solar system.


I kind of touched on that a few pages back... Not exactly with radio telescopes, but it would be effective for NEO observation/early warning, except during the period of time when the far side (I prefer this term, because dark side implies the portion of the moon not lit by sunlight, as well as the far side) is facing the sun.

The Corparation wrote:
Sjovenia wrote:Yea but how much money would it cost for a giant magnetic field? Plus the distance to Mars and how much fuel the rocket can hold needs to be added to the planing of a mission to mars

Why do we need a giant magnetic field?


He was probably referring to my post...

Sjovenia wrote:Yea but how much money would it cost for a giant magnetic field? Plus the distance to Mars and how much fuel the rocket can hold needs to be added to the planing of a mission to mars


The magnetic field doesn't need to be that big, actually. Just needs to have a strength about the same as Earth's, and project that field around the base.

As for the underlined part, thats exactly what we've been discussing, because sending things from the moon througout the rest of the solar system saves a shitload of delta-v.


Zanarkenisia wrote:
Naurobia wrote:We had enough money to make 3 moon landings in the cold war but combined they costed the equivalent of 450 billion dollars in todays money and we just simply didn't have a scientific reason to go back although I have read about proposals to build a moon colony but I doubt we will be leaving earth for a long time thanks to the budget crisis and recession.

Preservation of our species isn't good enough?


Apparently not...

Anyways, most of this country's problems can be solved by:
- legalizing, regulating, and taxing the sale of 'soft' drugs such as marijuana
- spending as much on education as we do on the military, and spending as much on the military as we do on education
- setting term limits on congress
- focusing our economy towards manned space flight, particularly by providing incentives to businesses
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Postby The Corparation » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:53 pm

Naurobia wrote:We had enough money to make 3 moon landings in the cold war but combined they costed the equivalent of 450 billion dollars in todays money and we just simply didn't have a scientific reason to go back although I have read about proposals to build a moon colony but I doubt we will be leaving earth for a long time thanks to the budget crisis and recession.

Which is why we sent 7 expeditions to the lunar surface in addition to two previous trips to lunar orbit.
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Zanarkenisia
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Postby Zanarkenisia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:26 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Set the Unbound wrote:Nooo, the Moon Base has been buried under tax arguments, and its partly my fault! :eek:

Do tax arguments block incoming radiation?


:rofl:

I'm so gonna sig this.

Set the Unbound wrote:
If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...


Indeed. :clap: :bow:

Useran wrote:Until the world collectively gets it's shit together financially, a moon base would be retarded.

The only real reason to have a moon base is to either study the moon or use it as a staging area for future bases on Mars, which is a pipe dream unless we have the cash to fund it.


We will never have the cash unless our country invests in something (AKA space program with a focus on returning to the moon, and going even further). Not spending anything isn't the way to fix something. Spending on things that provide a good return is.

The current economic crisis is very much a repeat of the Great Depression. Therefore, government spending on programs very New Deal-esque are essential. But instead of building the Hoover Dam, we should build the Bush Station (hehe...took the idea from how Hoover was unpopular in the early Depression).

Besides, moving our economy to focus on manned space travel will require the need for people with superior education, giving an excuse to increase spending in that area as well. Even if the space initiative won't defibrilate our economy, the more educated population will have a better chance of figuring out a way to fix it themselves (I still don't get why the fuck politicians keep diverting funds away from schools, which is pretty much the exact opposite solution to every single major issue that faces America today).

Sociobiology wrote:We need radio telescopes on the dark side of the moon, it is the most radio quiet place in the solar system.


I kind of touched on that a few pages back... Not exactly with radio telescopes, but it would be effective for NEO observation/early warning, except during the period of time when the far side (I prefer this term, because dark side implies the portion of the moon not lit by sunlight, as well as the far side) is facing the sun.

The Corparation wrote:Why do we need a giant magnetic field?


He was probably referring to my post...

Sjovenia wrote:Yea but how much money would it cost for a giant magnetic field? Plus the distance to Mars and how much fuel the rocket can hold needs to be added to the planing of a mission to mars


The magnetic field doesn't need to be that big, actually. Just needs to have a strength about the same as Earth's, and project that field around the base.

As for the underlined part, thats exactly what we've been discussing, because sending things from the moon througout the rest of the solar system saves a shitload of delta-v.


Zanarkenisia wrote:Preservation of our species isn't good enough?


Apparently not...

Anyways, most of this country's problems can be solved by:
- legalizing, regulating, and taxing the sale of 'soft' drugs such as marijuana
- spending as much on education as we do on the military, and spending as much on the military as we do on education
- setting term limits on congress
- focusing our economy towards manned space flight, particularly by providing incentives to businesses

You know a military advantage a country has if they have a base colony right? An unreliable bunker, the potential to fuck MAD.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:33 pm

Zanarkenisia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Apparently not...

Anyways, most of this country's problems can be solved by:
- legalizing, regulating, and taxing the sale of 'soft' drugs such as marijuana
- spending as much on education as we do on the military, and spending as much on the military as we do on education
- setting term limits on congress
- focusing our economy towards manned space flight, particularly by providing incentives to businesses

You know a military advantage a country has if they have a base colony right? An unreliable bunker, the potential to fuck MAD.


Indeed. But the militarization of space isn't exactly desirable...not to mention that the ability to get around MAD would probably result in the nuclear powers going to war (and in theory, at least, one base, even if it was a colony, on the moon wouldn't provide MAD immunity, due to the fact that it couldn't be self sufficient...)
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Zanarkenisia
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Postby Zanarkenisia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:36 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Zanarkenisia wrote:You know a military advantage a country has if they have a base colony right? An unreliable bunker, the potential to fuck MAD.


Indeed. But the militarization of space isn't exactly desirable...not to mention that the ability to get around MAD would probably result in the nuclear powers going to war (and in theory, at least, one base, even if it was a colony, on the moon wouldn't provide MAD immunity, due to the fact that it couldn't be self sufficient...)

Good point, but sorry to be the ultimate pessimist but I think it's pretty much inevitable.

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Archnar
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Postby Archnar » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:40 pm

Check out Mars Direct.If we can do a mars mission this cheaply a moon base should be childs play

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Sjovenia
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Postby Sjovenia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:41 pm

You would have alot of military advantages.
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Postby Holerad » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:44 pm

Senestrum wrote:Which is fantastic for stuff that starts out on the moon, but it still takes a lot more fuel to move a spacecraft to the moon, refuel it, and send it to its destination than it does to just send it straight there.


Image

Lunar propellant would be exported to EML1 and Low Earth Orbit. Also lunar nitrogen and oxygen to breathe, lunar water to drink and lunar water for radiation shields could be exported to EML1.

A Mars bound or NEO bound ship would stop at LEO and EML1, not land on the moon. In terms of delta V, EML1 has a huge advantage over low earth orbit.
Last edited by Holerad on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Archaetos » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:47 pm

When I saw this, this was the first thing that came to my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvjgIxuVdo4
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Holerad wrote:
Senestrum wrote:Which is fantastic for stuff that starts out on the moon, but it still takes a lot more fuel to move a spacecraft to the moon, refuel it, and send it to its destination than it does to just send it straight there.


Image

Lunar propellant would be exported to EML1 and Low Earth Orbit. Also lunar nitrogen, oxygen, water to drink and water for radiation shields could be exported to EML1.

A Mars bound or NEO bound ship would stop at LEO and EML1, not land on the moon. In terms of delta V, EML1 has a huge advantage over low earth orbit.


Although I must disagree with that comic. Earth->Moon->Mars is more like San Antonio->Houston->Omaha than Tucson->Houston->Omaha...
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The Soviet Technocracy
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Postby The Soviet Technocracy » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:01 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Set the Unbound wrote:If we could fund the Iraq war, we could fund several Mars' for the same price.

I'm just saying...


Indeed. :clap: :bow:


Pretty sure a single, sustainable Mars base right now would bankrupt the global economy.
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