Criminals allowed to go to Church and skip jail time.

[Genivaria]

Well I am most likely in a minority here but I agree with the police and religous community on this one. We have tried a lot of things with criminals. Death sentence, life in prison, forced work, probation, house arrest, and maybe even some deportations. And I also believe that like them in the way that 95% of crime is because of a lack of strong morals and bleiefs as well as a combination of economic problems. No morals + no money = criminal. Simple. and no nation on the planet has truly been able to desrtoy poverty. Only reduce it. But I think we may have a lot more sucess with the moral and belief part than the economic part. If there is anything else people are more stubborn with than their faith it is their wallets. And as far as the ACLU goes I believe this are just another effort for them to gain media attention. There are REAL civil rights issues out there for them to protest.

I support these efforts to actually think outside of the box.

You do know that 80% of the prison population are christians right?

[-St George]

95% of crime is because of a lack of strong morals and bleiefs

lol no

[AiliailiA]

The Program is entirely voluntary.

Oh, this shit again.

"Entirely voluntary" is go to church or don't go to church.

Go to church or go to jail is NOT "entirely voluntary". When you must choose between two options you don't like, it's not voluntary. It's a compelled choice, to take the lesser of two evils.

Athiests have hte option of other activities. Such as Community Service.

Not in this program they don't. It is within the power of a judge to offer them only these two options, and no other program of prison diversion.

Put a third option in there, for them to attend an equal number of hours at community college learning about law or ethics, and this atheist for one would be perfectly fine with it. Providing that no option can be offered without offering the two others, and it's OK.

Jail or church I'm not fine with. And I'm pretty sure the courts won't be fine with it either.

Although I don't remember if the article mentioned people of non Christian backround (Muslims, Jews)
but they could do community service as well if they wanted to I think, although I'm not sure Community Service would do anything to support values.

I hope this works out well

It won't. It will crash and burn.

[AiliailiA]

Well I am most likely in a minority here but I agree with the police and religous community on this one. We have tried a lot of things with criminals. Death sentence, life in prison, forced work, probation, house arrest, and maybe even some deportations. And I also believe that like them in the way that 95% of crime is because of a lack of strong morals and bleiefs as well as a combination of economic problems. No morals + no money = criminal. Simple. and no nation on the planet has truly been able to desrtoy poverty. Only reduce it. But I think we may have a lot more sucess with the moral and belief part than the economic part. If there is anything else people are more stubborn with than their faith it is their wallets. And as far as the ACLU goes I believe this are just another effort for them to gain media attention. There are REAL civil rights issues out there for them to protest.

I support these efforts to actually think outside of the box.

You do know that 80% of the prison population are christians right?

So, about the same as the general population.

Or ... more?

[Sanguinthium]

"Gonna say this now, 99.999091% of what i say will be IC, or Jokes."

In that guy's sig. Yeah, I don't know anymore really.

Right. Obvious troll is obvious.

Every part of what he said was, again, wrong.

Obvious troll is obvious.

i admit, everything except the affirmative action and general stance + arizona thing were jokes.

Affirmative action is reverse discrimination- i am not politically correct; i am generally considered a bigot.

anyway, Affirmative action, such as in new haven connecticuit when they denied white firefighters a promotion because not enough black firefighters did well on it -despite the fact on average blacks are less intellegent than whites which is a scientific fact- http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

anyway, heres the case. its a little old, but its an example. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30346519/ns/us_news-life/t/reverse-discrimination-justices-weigh-case/

supreme cort upheld that this example of affirmative action is workplace discrimination, with the firefighters being penalized for being white.

so, you tell me; if YOU were in line for a promotion, but were denied it because not enough black people managed to qualify or apply, how would that make you feel?

[AiliailiA]

i admit, everything except the affirmative action and general stance + arizona thing were jokes.

You should take that 99.999091% thing out of your sig then.

With 413 posts, I'm pretty sure you've blown it with those two serious claims.

[Norstal]

I guess. I wouldn't be too open about reading some other book. Or, just put it into the middle of a bible.

I'm sure someone would notice that.

Bring a Kindle. Tell everyone it's the Bible. Then read something else.

Win.

[Ovisterra]

Not cool. That implies many things:

1. Going to church is a punishment
2. Going to church will change criminals
3. Going to church will stop criminals committing crimes
4. Any one faith should be favoured by the state.

[Kazomal]

Right. Obvious troll is obvious.

Every part of what he said was, again, wrong.

Obvious troll is obvious.

i admit, everything except the affirmative action and general stance + arizona thing were jokes.

Affirmative action is reverse discrimination- i am not politically correct; i am generally considered a bigot.

anyway, Affirmative action, such as in new haven connecticuit when they denied white firefighters a promotion because not enough black firefighters did well on it -despite the fact on average blacks are less intellegent than whites which is a scientific fact- http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

anyway, heres the case. its a little old, but its an example. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30346519/ns/us_news-life/t/reverse-discrimination-justices-weigh-case/

supreme cort upheld that this example of affirmative action is workplace discrimination, with the firefighters being penalized for being white.

so, you tell me; if YOU were in line for a promotion, but were denied it because not enough black people managed to qualify or apply, how would that make you feel?

First off, threadjack, and second of all, you are, again, wrong about every part of that.

I'm about to go to work, but when I get back, I'll demolish your bullshit.

And don't ever use the word "politically correct" again. The only people who use that word are assholes who try to defend their lies, ignorance, and racism by claiming to not be "PC." It's meaningless. The important part is that you're wrong, "PC" or not.

[AiliailiA]

Right. Obvious troll is obvious.

Every part of what he said was, again, wrong.

Obvious troll is obvious.

i admit, everything except the affirmative action and general stance + arizona thing were jokes.

Affirmative action is reverse discrimination- i am not politically correct; i am generally considered a bigot.

anyway, Affirmative action, such as in new haven connecticuit when they denied white firefighters a promotion because not enough black firefighters did well on it -despite the fact on average blacks are less intellegent than whites which is a scientific fact- http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

I remember something about a fire department, a legal challenge, and qualified white firefighters being denied promotion. I remember thinking it was a bit wrong, in the sense of a well-intentioned law being applied with bad effects. Didn't it have something to do with requiring the fire squad to be multilingual though ... or perhaps I'm thinking of some other case.

That's what you should have linked to.

Because surely in firefighters we are looking for other talents and qualities besides IQ?

Right here, is someone who might have agreed with you on the firefighters case, if you hadn't so quickly pivoted it to "blacks are inferior" and pulled a link from your archive.

anyway, heres the case. its a little old, but its an example. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30346519/ns/us_news-life/t/reverse-discrimination-justices-weigh-case/

supreme cort upheld that this example of affirmative action is workplace discrimination, with the firefighters being penalized for being white.

No, the Supreme Court did not. Not according to your link, from 2009, before the SC ruled on the case.

Oh, and this link is the "liberal" NBC I've heard about? The article seems pretty even-handed to me.

so, you tell me; if YOU were in line for a promotion, but were denied it because not enough black people managed to qualify or apply, how would that make you feel?

I'd think it was pretty unfair.

But at least it would all come out into the open. Unlike if I worked for a private corporation, who would have done the same thing but covered their tracks.

---

I'm sure someone would notice that.

Bring a Kindle. Tell everyone it's the Bible. Then read something else.

Win.

It says in OP's article, that participants in the program may have to answer questions about what they heard in church.

If the question is "who begat Erech?" then they're screwed. For that matter, the priest would probably be screwed too.

[The Rich Port]

YES. YES.

God will make crime dissapear from the Earth!

I mean, it's not like anyone's committed horrible crimes in the name of God, right?

---

Granted, this sounds awesome to get rid of tickets and several misdemeanors without affecting your public record too much... But it is most certainly unconstitutional, if we take the separation of Church and State into account.

We need more secular volunteer and self-betterment programs, IMO.

[JuNii]

I'm sure someone would notice that.

Bring a Kindle. Tell everyone it's the Bible. Then read something else.

Win.

Lose actually...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-no ... 57999.html

Prisoners in the program will also have to write about each service.

perfect punishment... HOMEWORK!!!

actually, I wouldn't mind seeing the recidivism rate for a program like this.

[Erinkita]

As well meaning as this program is, it clearly violates the separation of church and state and ought to be shut down.

That said, I'd defnintely pick church over jail. I'd tell the pastor right off that I'm an atheist, and while I won't accept his religious views, I'll happily allow him to rehabilitate me.

[Norstal]

It says in OP's article, that participants in the program may have to answer questions about what they heard in church.

If the question is "who begat Erech?" then they're screwed. For that matter, the priest would probably be screwed too.

God, I'd rather take a philosophy class.

[The Anti-Cosmic Gods]

It was agreed by all the pastors that at the core of the crime problem was the erosion of family values and morals.

what is this I don't even

[JuNii]

As well meaning as this program is, it clearly violates the separation of church and state and ought to be shut down.

That said, I'd defnintely pick church over jail. I'd tell the pastor right off that I'm an atheist, and while I won't accept his religious views, I'll happily allow him to rehabilitate me.

and that's fine. now, realise you will have to attend church every sunday and write a report about the sermons...

[New England and The Maritimes]

Yes, it is. It's bullshit and harmful bullshit to use scare tactics.

Yes, there is a small minute risk that a condom will fail. This risk is, coincidentally, much smaller when one is educated in the proper use thereof.

No, actually, that works much better. See, again, actual empirical evidence.

See, what's important when it comes to actually helping people isn't getting on your high horse and dictating terms to them. It's doing what works to improve their situation. Comprehensive good sex education will. Information, not ignorance.

I think Terraius is unwilling to give up the punishment consequence for what he believes is morally wrong behavior.

So you're wasting your time talking about harm reduction. Terraius likes the harm. The sinners should suffer.

Him and about half the religious types I've met. I'm glad most Catholics I meet are what he calls "Coffee Table Catholics." I guess if all the good ones are "fake" I can be sure all the "real" ones are pieces of shit, right?

I don't even engage with these people lately. There's no sense trying to confront absurdity, because that only grants it legitimacy, whether that be in its own eyes or in the eyes of others.

[Terraius]

Just tell kids what the fuck happens when you have unprotected sex. If they do it anyways, who gives a fuck. Not your problem, tbh.

Except it IS your problem.

If kids are fucking without protection and getting STDs, those medical costs have to be paid by somebody. The kids who are at highest risk for STDs tend to be the kids who don't have access to safe and effective contraception, and those same kids are also the ones who are most likely to be uninsured and have parents who simply cannot afford good medical coverage.

If kids are fucking without protection and somebody gets pregnant, the costs dealing with that pregnancy have to be paid by somebody. See above.

The anti-choice right has done a wonderful job of making sure that abortion services, while nominally legal, are extremely difficult to obtain for this same demographic. So the costs of bearing, birthing, and raising the resulting offspring will have to be carried by somebody. See above.

The resulting children, born to under-age parents who were already disadvantaged to begin with, will very likely become another generation of problems that will have to be dealt with.

These people and these problems exist. You can stick your fingers in your ears and insist that it ain't yer problem, but it is. If you choose to ignore them, they will still get sick, they will still need food, they will still try to survive. They will turn to crime if they must. They will spread illness because they have no choice. They will continue to have more children because you won't do a thing to help them have alternatives, and even the poor are going to seek life's small pleasures (like sex) when they can.

It's infantile and stupid to pretend like you can just tell kids "this is what happens if you fuck" and then wash your hands of everything after that. Thank heavens for the countless people who are more responsible than that, and who take it upon themselves to help ensure that kids get medical care and counseling beyond this pathetic excuse for "sex ed."

Shut up Bottle your reason and logic are not wanted here.

[Erinkita]

As well meaning as this program is, it clearly violates the separation of church and state and ought to be shut down.

That said, I'd defnintely pick church over jail. I'd tell the pastor right off that I'm an atheist, and while I won't accept his religious views, I'll happily allow him to rehabilitate me.

and that's fine. now, realise you will have to attend church every sunday and write a report about the sermons...

I've been forced to attend church on a weekly basis before. It was dull and often irritating, but definitely preferable to jail time.
As for writing pointless essays on subjects I care nothing about... I go to high school.

[Yammata]

Just because one finds god does not mean his sins against humanity are forgiven.

[JuNii]

and that's fine. now, realise you will have to attend church every sunday and write a report about the sermons...

I've been forced to attend church on a weekly basis before. It was dull and often irritating, but definitely preferable to jail time.
As for writing pointless essays on subjects I care nothing about... I go to high school.

hence my earlier post about homework.

[Belvadaire]

Look at it more as community servive and not just getting off the hook, they have duties to fulfill while church is in service, they have to attend lectures by the head church leader of that congregation every other day, and this goes on for over 8 months under supervision, here in this nation it's more like finding yourself again, brushing off the bad influences that always stuck around their minds and hearts. What Nation wants to be number 1# in the fullest jail category? No nation right? But if they don't want to deal with the rules of the church, then jail will be applied to that individual. Giving chances based on the crime, theft, and murder is two diffrent crimes, and will be treated according to that degree, but to get church community service, it had to be a minor offense.

[Chinese Regions]

What do atheist/agnostic criminals do?

Go to jail, and get extra time because they refuse to attend religious services.

That is fucked up, by doing their sentence in jail they should get less time in Jail than ones that go to church.

[Zkandinavia]

Isnt there a church in the prison aleready? (in most nations...)

[DaWoad]

Except it IS your problem.

If kids are fucking without protection and getting STDs, those medical costs have to be paid by somebody. The kids who are at highest risk for STDs tend to be the kids who don't have access to safe and effective contraception, and those same kids are also the ones who are most likely to be uninsured and have parents who simply cannot afford good medical coverage.

If kids are fucking without protection and somebody gets pregnant, the costs dealing with that pregnancy have to be paid by somebody. See above.

The anti-choice right has done a wonderful job of making sure that abortion services, while nominally legal, are extremely difficult to obtain for this same demographic. So the costs of bearing, birthing, and raising the resulting offspring will have to be carried by somebody. See above.

The resulting children, born to under-age parents who were already disadvantaged to begin with, will very likely become another generation of problems that will have to be dealt with.

These people and these problems exist. You can stick your fingers in your ears and insist that it ain't yer problem, but it is. If you choose to ignore them, they will still get sick, they will still need food, they will still try to survive. They will turn to crime if they must. They will spread illness because they have no choice. They will continue to have more children because you won't do a thing to help them have alternatives, and even the poor are going to seek life's small pleasures (like sex) when they can.

It's infantile and stupid to pretend like you can just tell kids "this is what happens if you fuck" and then wash your hands of everything after that. Thank heavens for the countless people who are more responsible than that, and who take it upon themselves to help ensure that kids get medical care and counseling beyond this pathetic excuse for "sex ed."

Shut up Bottle your reason and logic are not wanted here.

you realize she just hammered your argument about "teaaaach themmmmm the dangerrrs of immorality!" right?