Does wealth equal to greed?

[Red Indus]

Because their more people willing to not do the hard mental work in favor of physical labor. Lawyers are hard working as well, just in a different way.

in a way which doesn't make any food I might add

[Vestr-Norig]

I am not against people getting rich if they really have earned their money; if they really work hard and long for it. But in fact, this is not how society works at all. Only directors, laywers, highly respected politicians, capitalists(!), and other "important people" get really rich. I won't say that they work harder than, rather the opposite, of for example farmers, miners, fabric workers, carpenters, nurses, etc. Yet, it is the first mentioned that make an awful lot of money. I do not see this as fait at all, and therefore I am against people getting filthy rish.

They have earned their money, and they do work, hard. I don't know about you, but being a CEO, a lawyer, an entrepeneur, an industrialist or an investor is anything but about just sitting on your butt and letting others do the work.

Also, they have the brains to take such jobs and are investors which help society quite a bit.

By investing in businesses and companies they create jobs, by paying taxes they make sure people like you can have universal healthcare and that the government of which you are a citizen of can spend millions on farm subisidies and other economic whirlpools.

And being against people getting "filthy" rich? They have earned that money(except of course in case a huge inheritance was laying around).

Again, this is mere jealousy.

But why then, is it almost impossible in most parts of the world for a farmer, fabric-worker, fisherman, etc, to get something near to rich? How is being a lawyer, entrepenour, director, etc, more important than the "low-status" jobs I mentioned? Why is it fair that a farmer almost cannot become rich while it is so easy for lawyers to become so?

[The Merchant Republics]

Because I built them both. No, not directly of course, but because I helped the shipwright once, he volunteered to build me a boat and because I helped a few construction workers with some problems they had, they generously agreed to help me build my house.

So why should my neighbour who hasn't done anything to help the shipwright nor any of the construction workers, be entitled to anything that I have? Why should the shipwright have to make a boat for him, if my neighbour has never said a kind word to the man. Why should the construction workers be forced to build him a house if the only thing my neighbours ever done for them is breathe their air.

Much more importantly, why should I tear down my nice home and scuttle my nice boat just because my neighbour is an unhelpful prick?

As I said, you neighbour do not necasarilly have done nothing for what he have. He might be a poor farmer, struggeling for survival, but do not earn nearly anything, because of his "low-status job". How is it fair, that you, either you being a lawyer, director or any job of "importance", should have such a large house and luxurious boat compared to you hard-working neighbour?

Because I have helped the people who in return have built my house and my boat for me. In my capacity as a lawyer, I helped that shipwright draft the legal contracts he needed to see his son after a messy divorce, in my capacity as a director I made a movie which the construction workers loved so much that they offered to build my house in thanks. I did my very best to help those people, and worked quite hard too, now they just so happened to have given me a nice house and a boat in return.

Our poor farming neighbour, however, hard as he's worked has never been able to help another soul in his life. He makes enough to eat and occasionally he spends a few hours of his time helping his friends and in return he can have some of their spare farm equipment, but that's where it ends, he hates everyone else, the stodgy old coot, and refuses to help them. Of course, he doesn't have much time to spare anyways.

[Sibirsky]

Wealth means that you are successful.

... At ripping everybody else off.

I don't think wealth = greed.

Unfortunately, though, a lot of greedy people are wealthy. And they won't stop trying to increase their wealth.

People voluntarily line up, and buy the product or service the wealthy are selling. If they were being ripped off, they would not buy the product or service.

[North Calaveras]

... At ripping everybody else off.

I don't think wealth = greed.

Unfortunately, though, a lot of greedy people are wealthy. And they won't stop trying to increase their wealth.

People voluntarily line up, and buy the product or service the wealthy are selling. If they were being ripped off, they would not buy the product or service.

This, when a company disappoints its customers guess what....they fall...unless the government gives them some taxpayer money.

[Volnotova]

A cousin of mine pulls down a +$500,000 income (he owns a chain of industrial bakeries in Ontario) he donates 90% of his income after tax to charity, he lives comfortably and he has his pet comforts but I'd say he's the furthest thing from greedy out there.

Now that's an exceptional case but the simple fact is that many earn far more money then they'd ever have use for unless they gave generously to charity.

But I'll get more to the point, does getting rich require you to be greedy? The answer is simply no. As anyone whose ever been in business will tell you, you don't make money by being greedy you make it by giving people the best deal possible, the highest quality for the lowest price. The rich in order to become rich must work to the benefit of their society.

This. There is no better way to put it.

Being greedy in the business world, tends to kill your business.

Look at what happened to Lehman.

CEO greed tends to kill businesses.

Haters gonna hate on the rich because they wish they were rich themselves. Not many people turn away money, give a lower-class socialist a million dollars he will turn into a capitalist pretty fast.

that's bullshit I would use the money for... .... promoting affordable housing.

How noble.

Because I built them both. No, not directly of course, but because I helped the shipwright once, he volunteered to build me a boat and because I helped a few construction workers with some problems they had, they generously agreed to help me build my house.

So why should my neighbour who hasn't done anything to help the shipwright nor any of the construction workers, be entitled to anything that I have? Why should the shipwright have to make a boat for him, if my neighbour has never said a kind word to the man. Why should the construction workers be forced to build him a house if the only thing my neighbours ever done for them is breathe their air.

Much more importantly, why should I tear down my nice home and scuttle my nice boat just because my neighbour is an unhelpful prick?

As I said, your neighbour do not necasarilly have done nothing for what he have. He might be a poor farmer, struggeling for survival, but do not earn nearly anything, because of his "low-status job". How is it fair, that you, either you being a lawyer, director or any job of "importance", should have such a large house and luxurious boat compared to you hard-working neighbour?

How about the unemployed? Those who are on welfare?

Why are they entitled to what I or others around me earn and have worked hard for?

Certainly, I am sure you will agree that that they are in fact leeches and are in [n]no[/b] way entitled to what I or others have earned and worked for.

[Sibirsky]

Rich people should be taxed MUCH more than they do. I believe, that nobody really should own that much money, and have a too big boat, house, etc. I believe resources should be much more equaly shared than it is in any nation today.

First of all, you would increase the cyclical nature of tax revenue. A bad thing. Why do you get to decide how much money someone should or should not have? What is too big?

Wealth creates more wealth for more people. That is a good thing. Also, you wealth cap, would be economically devastating.

[Sibirsky]

Every exchange is made on cost/benefit terms, there isn't a way to have commerce that doesn't include people perceiving themselves better off for each trade.

The real "magic" of capitalism is that it forces the rich to exchange value for value to make their wealth, they are greedy sure but they benefit us with their greed, in contrast Rich Port, a non-commercial society would give greedy people the incentive to do they least amount they have to in order to continue taking from the largesse of their neighbors.

Fine, let them be greedy and wealthy.

But don't let them keep the damn money.

Otherwise, this whole purpose of the commercial society is canceled out by the fact people are still starving in the name of making these few greedy hoarders rich is canceled out by the fact that only the wealthy receive most of the profit.

Money makes money. With a larger pool of capital, the wealthy can do what they do best. Invest it, grow the economy, create products and jobs.

[Sibirsky]

How big of a boat is too big?

Who decides how big I can make my house, if I build myself a house that is too big do you have the right to tear it down, in the name of fairness?

Why should you have a ridiciously big house and boat, while your neighbour lives in a shack and have no boat?

Because that person earned it!

[Vestr-Norig]

How about the unemployed? Those who are on welfare?

Why are they entitled to what I or others around me earn and have worked hard for?

Certainly, I am sure you will agree that that they are in fact leeches and are in [n]no[/b] way entitled to what I or others have earned and worked for.

If people who is able to work and there is job for them, and they refuse to work, then I do agree that they do not contribute to society and should no get anything back from it either. Something very different is if they work hard, but still do not earn much because their job is not too well-paid.

[The Rich Port]

... At ripping everybody else off.

I don't think wealth = greed.

Unfortunately, though, a lot of greedy people are wealthy. And they won't stop trying to increase their wealth.

People voluntarily line up, and buy the product or service the wealthy are selling. If they were being ripped off, they would not buy the product or service.

Yes, I'm well aware of what supply and demand is, Sib.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand, whether the wealthy are automatically greedy or not... Or something along those lines.

[The Merchant Republics]

Because I built them both. No, not directly of course, but because I helped the shipwright once, he volunteered to build me a boat and because I helped a few construction workers with some problems they had, they generously agreed to help me build my house.

So why should my neighbour who hasn't done anything to help the shipwright nor any of the construction workers, be entitled to anything that I have? Why should the shipwright have to make a boat for him, if my neighbour has never said a kind word to the man. Why should the construction workers be forced to build him a house if the only thing my neighbours ever done for them is breathe their air.

Much more importantly, why should I tear down my nice home and scuttle my nice boat just because my neighbour is an unhelpful prick?

Well, shit, I didn't realize the world now revolves around the rich guy simply because he has so much damn money.

No it doesn't though the world doesn't revolve around this rich fellow.

You see, Mr. Rich let's call him, is actually a kind-of stand-up guy, he's friends with Mr. Boatsmith, now Mr. Rich is really good at numbers, Mr. Boatsmith? Not so much, but tax time comes around every so often and well, Mr. Boatsmith fell behind, so he called up Mr. Rich, and Mr. Rich offered to do all of Mr. B's taxes, no string attached. When he was finished Mr. B was so grateful for his assistance that he offered to make Mr. Rich a boat free of charge (as it happens Mr. B had just gotten some spare boat parts from a fellow he helped out a couple weeks ago). Now on the way to the beach with his new boat, Mr. Rich happened to come upon a group of construction workers who needed a ride, Mr. R gladly offered them one, and the construction workers were so grateful that they offered to build an extension onto his house.

You see, the world doesn't revolve around Mr. Rich, Mr. Rich is simply the benefactor of his many good deeds.

[The Rich Port]

Fine, let them be greedy and wealthy.

But don't let them keep the damn money.

Otherwise, this whole purpose of the commercial society is canceled out by the fact people are still starving in the name of making these few greedy hoarders rich is canceled out by the fact that only the wealthy receive most of the profit.

Money makes money. With a larger pool of capital, the wealthy can do what they do best. Invest it, grow the economy, create products and jobs.

Or not.

You know, exploit it, and when it crashes, rake in the profits and run.

Remind you of anything?

[Sibirsky]

listen, I want all your money because I want to spend it on a probe to Europa, so we can find out of there's life there. I believe that leveling everyone is the only way to accomplish this. Unless it's as rewards specifically used to motivate, then I don't give a shit. We should use this method to accomplish the manufacturing of bunkers. Lots and lots of bunkers with storage for products. Then we'll hollow out the Earth.

Make sure to let everyone dig with spoons else you might cause unemployment.

*nods*

[Volnotova]

How about the unemployed? Those who are on welfare?

Why are they entitled to what I or others around me earn and have worked hard for?

Certainly, I am sure you will agree that that they are in fact leeches and are in no way entitled to what I or others have earned and worked for.

If people who is able to work and there is job for them, and they refuse to work, then I do agree that they do not contribute to society andshoul no get anything back from it either. Something very different is if they work hard, but still do not kame much money because their job is not too well-paid.

Nevertheless, why are they entitled to what I have and what I have earned and worked for and the belongings and salaries of those around me when they do not work themselves?

[Sibirsky]

So what? Why does that matter?

And their is more in env then just desiring that which others have.

It is also often just feeling because someone else posses/controls that which you do not have or can't have.

You simply cannot stand people being richer then the average Joe: That is why you propose excessive taxation so they have the same standard of living as them.

That is jealousy.

I am not against people getting rich if they really have earned their money; if they really have worked hard and long for it. But in fact, this is not how society works at all. Only directors, laywers, highly respected politicians, capitalists(!), and other "important people" get really rich. I won't say that they work harder, rather the opposite, than for example farmers, miners, fabric workers, carpenters, nurses, etc. Yet, it is the first mentioned jobs that makes an awful lot of money. I do not see this as fair at all, and therefore I am against people getting filthy rish.

Farmers, miners, carpenters, all have the opportunity of becoming wealthy by becoming capitalists.

Lawyers, provide a valuable service to their clients.

Capitalists, take on enormous amounts of risk. Risk that should be compensated, if they are successful. Otherwise you would not have risk taking, or any growth. In other words, everyone would be poor.

[The Rich Port]

Well, shit, I didn't realize the world now revolves around the rich guy simply because he has so much damn money.

No it doesn't though the world doesn't revolve around this rich fellow.

You see, Mr. Rich let's call him, is actually a kind-of stand-up guy, he's friends with Mr. Boatsmith, now Mr. Rich is really good at numbers, Mr. Boatsmith? Not so much, but tax time comes around every so often and well, Mr. Boatsmith fell behind, so he called up Mr. Rich, and Mr. Rich offered to do all of Mr. B's taxes, no string attached. When he was finished Mr. B was so grateful for his assistance that he offered to make Mr. Rich a boat free of charge (as it happens Mr. B had just gotten some spare boat parts from a fellow he helped out a couple weeks ago). Now on the way to the beach with his new boat, Mr. Rich happened to come upon a group of construction workers who needed a ride, Mr. R gladly offered them one, and the construction workers were so grateful that they offered to build an extension onto his house.

You see, the world doesn't revolve around Mr. Rich, Mr. Rich is simply the benefactor of his many good deeds.

... I find it ironic, really, that you cut out the third guy in this story.

What about the guy in the shack?

[Vestr-Norig]

If people who is able to work and there is job for them, and they refuse to work, then I do agree that they do not contribute to society andshoul no get anything back from it either. Something very different is if they work hard, but still do not kame much money because their job is not too well-paid.

Nevertheless, why are they entitled to what I have and what I have earned and worked for and the belongings and salaries of those around me when they do not work themselves?

They work themself, I have said it a million times already. They are farmers, fishermen, miners, and works very hard each day to get the little they get out of it. Can you then pleasy tell me, why do YOU deserve so much compared to them? Do not come here and say you have worked more than them, please.

[The Merchant Republics]

No it doesn't though the world doesn't revolve around this rich fellow.

You see, Mr. Rich let's call him, is actually a kind-of stand-up guy, he's friends with Mr. Boatsmith, now Mr. Rich is really good at numbers, Mr. Boatsmith? Not so much, but tax time comes around every so often and well, Mr. Boatsmith fell behind, so he called up Mr. Rich, and Mr. Rich offered to do all of Mr. B's taxes, no string attached. When he was finished Mr. B was so grateful for his assistance that he offered to make Mr. Rich a boat free of charge (as it happens Mr. B had just gotten some spare boat parts from a fellow he helped out a couple weeks ago). Now on the way to the beach with his new boat, Mr. Rich happened to come upon a group of construction workers who needed a ride, Mr. R gladly offered them one, and the construction workers were so grateful that they offered to build an extension onto his house.

You see, the world doesn't revolve around Mr. Rich, Mr. Rich is simply the benefactor of his many good deeds.

... I find it ironic, really, that you cut out the third guy in this story.

What about the guy in the shack?

The fellow in the shack is a stodgy old coot, who refuses to give anyone else the time of day unless they give him something first. A selfish feckless little man he is. Is it any wonder no one wants to help him out? All he ever does is till his fields, and he works hard, and that's admirable, but he's never said a kind word to anyone. So why should he get anything kind in return.

[Sibirsky]

They have earned their money, and they do work, hard. I don't know about you, but being a CEO, a lawyer, an entrepeneur, an industrialist or an investor is anything but about just sitting on your butt and letting others do the work.

Also, they have the brains to take such jobs and are investors which help society quite a bit.

By investing in businesses and companies they create jobs, by paying taxes they make sure people like you can have universal healthcare and that the government of which you are a citizen of can spend millions on farm subisidies and other economic whirlpools.

And being against people getting "filthy" rich? They have earned that money(except of course in case a huge inheritance was laying around).

Again, this is mere jealousy.

But why then, is it almost impossible in most parts of the world for a farmer, fabric-worker, fisherman, etc, to get something near to rich? How is being a lawyer, entrepenour, director, etc, more important than the "low-status" jobs I mentioned? Why is it fair that a farmer almost cannot become rich while it is so easy for lawyers to become so?

Because most part of the world are tightly regulated hell holes. In the somewhat more free west, they do ok.

[Zanarkenisia]

Because their more people willing to not do the hard mental work in favor of physical labor. Lawyers are hard working as well, just in a different way.

in a way which doesn't make any food I might add

yeah but lawyer may save a couple of farmers from losing their job one day.

[Volnotova]

Nevertheless, why are they entitled to what I have and what I have earned and worked for and the belongings and salaries of those around me when they do not work themselves?

They work themself, I have said it a million times already. They are farmers, fishermen, miners, and works very hard each day to get the little they get out of it. Can you then pleasy tell me, why do YOU deserve so much compared to them? Do not come here and say you have worked more than them, please.

I am talking about the unemployed.

Again, they don't work; Why are they entitled to what I have earned?

[Primesnarf]

Only if those who are wealthy that ripped people off are cons.
Most wealthy people are not cons, but businessmen that knows the game of consumption. Its all about how you play the game, ripping people off only goes so far. Give a man a fish, he'll be fed for a day... so capitalize that fish for what's its worth.

Also, I would also have to argue that not a lot of greedy people are wealthy. Greed is the desire to acquire wealth while wealth is the status of how much you have. You can say, however, that a lot of wealthy people are greedy due to their desire to want more.

on topic, does wealth=greed? No, Greed is merely the desire, wealth is the amount; one can easily be greedy and not wealthy, one could easily be wealthy and not greedy. There are ways around greed with wealth, you'll just need to know how to play the game.

There's a difference between greed and AMBITION.

I absolutely don't mind people being ambitious. It shows they have initiative and that they have a potential to do great things with the wealth they acquire. Acquiring wealth for wealth's sake is a waste of your talents if you're really ambitious and not just a greedball.

I think we're hitting the same nail twice. I agree with you, there is a fine line between greed and ambition and I agree with you, people do amazing things when ambitious, and hell, I'll, again, agree with you that acquiring wealth for the sake of wealth is a waste. I was talking about the whole "a lot Greedy people are wealthy" line when there are many people who are greedy and live in poverty; when I wanted to correct your statement by saying "A lot of Wealthy people are greedy" as it makes more logical sense as it states that a person with bountiful goods he/she acquired will be a subject to emotion rather than a person with emotion is subject to how much goods you will acquire. Like we have both said, Greed=/=Wealth; Greed is an emotion that is portrayed as a sin in society, Wealth is the number of goods you have that gives out a current status displayed by supply and demand. But again, hitting the same nail twice. I, honestly, didn't mean for it to be an attack.

The idea that "ripping people off only goes so far" relies on a perfect information economy and the presence of viable alternatives. In the real world, the most profitable companies are typically the ones that can rape you in the ass and get you to thank them for the reach-around.

Highly doubtful; If you even look at economics and consumption, the only ones that are able to rip people off and become profitable are the ones with no competition and in a capitalistic society, that is very well near impossible as more rivaling companies will birth. Competition detail a need for either a cheaper good or a better good. No-one in a capitalistic society will buy a product if it is both shitty and expensive. Coke and Pepsi are successful companies because they are competing with each other, and with that they need to make better products than their rivaling company. Supply and Demand. Those who rip people off may get a good load of money in the beginning, they will soon fail because customers will not consume their product as they will complain and be dissatisfied. It all boils down to simple Supply and Demand.

[Sibirsky]

People voluntarily line up, and buy the product or service the wealthy are selling. If they were being ripped off, they would not buy the product or service.

Yes, I'm well aware of what supply and demand is, Sib.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand, whether the wealthy are automatically greedy or not... Or something along those lines.

You said they were ripping everybody off. A blatant lie.

[Vestr-Norig]

They work themself, I have said it a million times already. They are farmers, fishermen, miners, and works very hard each day to get the little they get out of it. Can you then pleasy tell me, why do YOU deserve so much compared to them? Do not come here and say you have worked more than them, please.

I am talking about the unemployed.

Again, they don't work; Why are they entitled to what I have earned?

I have said that too. If they do really want a job, but there simply are not any, or they cannot get any, or they are not able to work in other ways, then they should get help from society; welfare, taxes from you, yes. If they is able to work, is offered one, but refuse to work, then they deserve nothing from society.