Italy arrests quake scientists, shakes scientific world

[Risottia]

1.They haven't been arrested. They're being tried.

According to other tidbits in the article, the apparent basis of the trial is that these scientists didn't give warning of an impending earthquake, which would've prevented an unnecessary loss of life.
... which, if you know anything about the subject, is utter bullshit.

2.Which, if you knew anything about the L'Aquila quake, is utter bullshit.
2a.It wasn't just a single shock. Shock about magnitude 4 were going on repeatedly since at least a month before the main shock struck. People had been calling the firefighters and the Protezione civile for weeks to report cracks in their houses and in public buildings.
2b.The INGV and Protezione Civile crowd had been conducting a meeting the day before the main shock, and they decided that they weren't going to tell people to move out of their houses because they didn't want to "fuel panic".
2c.A INGV technician (more on wiki) had detected radon venting from fissures in the ground, which is often correlated to upcoming major quakes. He alerted the INGV and Protezione Civile brass that according to his own calculation, a 6+ Richter shock was to be expected within days, and he got fired and sued for that warning. That, 2 days before the major shock.
2d.The INGV and Protezione Civile top levels aren't just "scientists". They're also Public Administration executives. As part of governmental agencies, they are to be held responsible and accountable for NOT having alerted the population of a likely and present danger.

[Cosmopoles]

On what basis could they have told people to leave their homes? Furthermore, if you tell people to leave their homes, when do you advise them to return? What if you tell everyone to go home, then there's an earthquake the next day?

As for the lack of advice about what the authorities should have done in preparation for an earthquake, I could understand suing for that if it were their job to do so but it certainly isn't clear that this was the case. The article says that this committees meetings are normally public.

Personally, I think this is an attempt by local officials to shift the blame. If anyone should be prosecuted for a lack of preparedness its the local government.

[Lackadaisical2]

The interview concluded with a joke. "Meanwhile, let's go and have a glass of wine," the journalist said. "Absolutely!" De Bernardinis replied.

Is that really a joke? Sounds like good advice.

On what basis could they have told people to leave their homes? Furthermore, if you tell people to leave their homes, when do you advise them to return? What if you tell everyone to go home, then there's an earthquake the next day?

No reason not to evacuate a city of 100,000 (and surround areas) for a month or two. There could have been a quake... or not! Always better to err on the side of safety, right?

Personally, I think this is an attempt by local officials to shift the blame. If anyone should be prosecuted for a lack of preparedness its the local government.

It seems so to me, particularly if one of the complaints is that there was no evacuation plan, maybe thats on the guy from civil protection, but it doesn't seem like it'd be something geologists would be charged with coming up with. If their analysis that they gave to the crowd was 'rough and generic' that would liekly be because they're members of the public, not likely to be in for the technical details. What more could you say but: "there may be an earthquake, but there could be an earthquake at anytime, theres no reason to worry".

[GreaterPacificNations]

Yeah, I think we should be giving the Italian people all the support they can get when it comes to prosecuting their bloated, inefficient, frequently corrupt, useless useless government. Maybe it'll get the ball of accountibility rolling.

Anyhow, in this case it seems the bureaucrats, who are also scientists, are the ones who are being trialled- more for incompetence than scientific failure.

[Lord-General Drache]

It would seem they are reminiscing about fine anti-science church days of Italy and being pants-on-head retarded.

I feel bad for the scientists. There's no way in that field to realistically predict quakes, and they're just being turned into scapegoats.

[Yavin 1221]

It's because of the devil worshippers in Louisiana and Haiti that there was an earthquake in Italy.

[Greed and Death]

I applaud the arrest of scientist, with any luck Italy will experience Brain drain, and the US will get even more brain gain.

[Thatius]

So I guess based off of the Italians logic, we should hang all the scientists because they failed to predict the Haiti Earthquake, the 2004 Christmas Tsunami/Earthquake, and every other natural disaster?

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

So I guess based off of the Italians logic, we should hang all the scientists because they failed to predict the Haiti Earthquake, the 2004 Christmas Tsunami/Earthquake, and every other natural disaster?

They aren't being brought up before the courts for not predicting the quake.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

It would seem they are reminiscing about fine anti-science church days of Italy and being pants-on-head retarded.

I feel bad for the scientists. There's no way in that field to realistically predict quakes, and they're just being turned into scapegoats.

They aren't being brought up before the courts for not predicting the quake.

[Thatius]

So I guess based off of the Italians logic, we should hang all the scientists because they failed to predict the Haiti Earthquake, the 2004 Christmas Tsunami/Earthquake, and every other natural disaster?

They aren't being brought up before the courts for not predicting the quake.

They're on trial partly because they did not provide accurate information, which essentially is not predicting the quake to happen. They said it was highly unlikely, but they should have never said a quake wasn't going to happen, but the city shouldn't have been so stupid to believe a statement in a place where everything is unpredictable.

Seven people went on trial for manslaughter Tuesday in Italy, accused of failing to predict an earthquake that killed more than 300 people in L'Aquila in April 2009.

[Sovereign Spirits]

Injustice.

Show where in their contract it says they have this responsibility.
(If there were stupid enough to sign such a contract, by all means lock them up)

Fair enough.
But Doctors must be arrested whenever someone dies.
Police must be put in jail whenever the fail to prevent a crime from being committed.
Firemen should also get tossed in the clinker when a fire damages property.

Incompetence or bad luck is illegal?


Please arrest the Italian parliament and haul their asses off to jail.

Can someone show me some sort of official report saying they're being charged with 'not predicting the quake' or something to that effect. All I can see at the moment is a bit of media sensationalising.

snip

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110914/ ... 7264a.html

If the above is the case then the trial seems a fair one to hold

They're on trial partly because they did not provide accurate information, which essentially is not predicting the quake to happen. They said it was highly unlikely, but they should have never said a quake wasn't going to happen, but the city shouldn't have been so stupid to believe a statement in a place where everything is unpredictable.

^ All this.

As for my 2c:
Unless there is a law where they must satisfactorily predict earthquakes, and also in that law or another law requirements to give satisfactory warning, then those people should not have been arrested for failure to do those two things.

If, however, there are such laws, then they should have been arrested for failure to do those two things. And if that is the case, then the issue is the law in Italy regarding this, and this case is an opportunity to challenge it.

Atomic bombs and other tools of war have been built in secret by scientists on the request of supposedly public officials without consent of the governed, and that is still not the worst that some have been tasked to do. I have no greater sympathy and no greater trust for any scientist than I do for anyone else. Who I do have sympathy, trust, and respect for are individual persons who I choose, be they scientists or not.

Does this apply to these people here? Yes, in part. I am sympathetic towards their situation. It seems they were trying to do their jobs properly and failed. This shouldn't be grounds for manslaughter charges, but apparently it is in Italy. If it somehow comes out that they were not trying to do their jobs and purposefully refused to warn anyone about the quake with malicious intent, then they ought to be fired at the most minimum of minimums. I'd prefer if they were imprisoned for life, if that were true.

Aside from all of this nonsense, every person ought to be prepared to some degree for natural disasters and man-made ones, too. If you rely only on "authorities" to tell you when you should GTFO and to hold your hand while you do it, you are putting the lives of yourself and those who you are responsible for in incompetent yet expensive hands. Even if you have the best emergency response service ever, nobody is quicker to respond to your plight than you yourself. Always have as many easily-carried bags as necessary full of essential supplies, and reinforce your home if you are allowed to do those modifications. If you're not allowed to do that, maybe it's time to move somewhere else unless you are satisfied with the current sturdiness of your abode. Don't just say, "It's fine, surely." Do your research, and ask questions. Come to an informed conclusion, and act accordingly. You might still die a horrible, horrible death. But your chances of survival and returning to normalcy, not to mention being well-off enough to help others in need, will increase significantly. The more you can do by yourself, the greater your chance of survival, period. Keep that in mind for the future.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

They're on trial partly because they did not provide accurate information, which essentially is not predicting the quake to happen.

No it's really not

[The Black Forrest]

Scientists arrested in Italy?

This is a shock?

[Wiztopia]

They're on trial partly because they did not provide accurate information, which essentially is not predicting the quake to happen.

No it's really not

Yes it really is.

[The Warrior Hearted]

guilty government puts blame on innocents?
*remembers alot of world history*

nothing new here, move along. Itll happen again tommorrow.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Dammit, I was hoping this about scientists causing a quake. I was all, "Supervillains FTW!" and then I had another drink and then I saw this thread and then I cried like a real man.

Lex Luthor, WHEN YOU WILL COME?!

[Gauthier]

It's Italy. Between the Mafia, Silvio's Field Days, and fucking up the Amanda Knox trial should we be surprised their government would try to frame scientists because their earthquake policies are shit?

[California Terra Prime]

shouldn't they put the pope on trial? The man with the funniest hat is supposed to have a direct line to god and he couldn't ask Ol' buddy Jayeezuhs for the 411 on earthquakes? Wow, Italy is pathetic.

[Unibot II]

But Doctors must be arrested whenever someone dies.

Well we do charge doctors for malpractice and negligence, if say someone dies on the surgery table for something a surgeon did out of gross negligence, this is definitely something that needs to be responded to by the state. However, I was under the impression that a scientist and his team (may not have been this team) did report their prediction to the authorities and they were ignored ^[1].

[Gauthier]

But Doctors must be arrested whenever someone dies.

Well we do charge doctors for malpractice and negligence, if say someone dies on the surgery table for something a surgeon did out of gross negligence, this is definitely something that needs to be responded to by the state. However, I was under the impression that a scientist and his team (may not have been this team) did report their prediction to the authorities and they were ignored ^[1].

At this point Italy might give them a death sentence for not discovering space aliens. Incompetence and ass covering in a single bundle as only Italy can do so well.

[North Calaveras]

Seriously? This is like something from the Onion...

i was thinking the same thing

[Alterrea]

guilty government puts blame on innocents?
*remembers alot of world history*

nothing new here, move along. Itll happen again tommorrow.

Sorry but, it's not the government that prosecutes these eight people. These eight people work for the government. So the public prosecutor wants to try government's agents.
And in Italy, differently to in the US or France, the public prosecution is completely independent from the government (the executive).

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Yes it really is.

Asking that officials accurately communicate what information they DO have is not the same as asking that they tell you things they cannot. If they are asked to do the latter the onus is on them to make clear that to attempt to do so would be misleading.

[Bleckonia]

It's so stupid.