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Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Chrobalta
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Chrobalta » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:43 pm

Linux > Microsoft > Apple

I say this as a Linux user.
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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:02 pm

Mikertaz Kein wrote::blink:

I had no idea the number of people who support Linux.


More here than the 'net at large I'd say.

I could offer an explanation, but it would offend Windows and Mac users. And having wred the rest of the thread since my last contribution, I'm sick of this petty "my daddy can kick your daddy's ass" bickering.




Tekania wrote:No surprise. It's more prevalent than what is stated in "Market Share" studies... Since they are based off of OS purchases.... If someone buys a Dell machine with Windows pre-installed, it's counted as a "Windows User" even if they guy wipes it as soon as he opens the box, and installs a *nix on it... Statistics can make anything look good, by manipulating the defining criteria to get the result you want...


Some of them (eg, the most recent one HK relies on for the repeated "1% use Linux" claim) are based on declared OS "Eg Firefox on Linux" of visitors to certain websites.

For one thing, this measures proportions of website visitors (not even 'net users) rather than computer users. Computers are used for other things than visiting websites.

For another thing, I find it interesting that there is no measurement in any of HK's links of "not disclosed." I think it highly likely that security-conscious web users are more likely to be running Linux, and that a part of their security strategy is to hide or misrepresent (as a Windows machine) their OS. That the "concealed" proportion rates less than the smallest proportion (0.14% for Symbian) strikes me as very improbable.

Browser type is legitimately measured that way, because many sites work better if they know your browser type, so users have a good reason not to conceal it. And the browser is used to visit sites, so as long as they're polling a decent cross-section of sites they do get an accurate measurement of what proportion of users use each brand of browser.
Lucky Bicycle Works, previously BunnySaurus Bugsii.
"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
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Oh, my town is a leader of children,
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:27 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.

As long as we're speaking of Grandparents, my Grandmother uses Vista and loves it. :)


No, I don't believe it.. Old people can't use computers... Has no starting crank and too many buttons! /sarcasm
Such heroic nonsense!

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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:45 pm

Tekania wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.

As long as we're speaking of Grandparents, my Grandmother uses Vista and loves it. :)


No, I don't believe it.. Old people can't use computers... Has no starting crank and too many buttons! /sarcasm


Old folks these days, what's the matter with them? No sense of adventure!

When I was old, I just had to see someone using a pogo stick or a hula hoop, and I'd be having a go before you could say Jack Robinson.

Ah, those were the days. Making time run backwards was the worst idea, ever, and you try to tell people and they're all "what are you talking about?" They've forgotten what it was like when they were old!

Really not looking forward to being un-born, either. Maybe I'll see it differently after I turn one.
Lucky Bicycle Works, previously BunnySaurus Bugsii.
"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

-- Mark Seymour

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Coloradostan
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Coloradostan » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:51 pm

First post for me! Yay.

Anyway, I have a triple boot Macbook with MacOS, Gentoo Linux, and Windows 7 RC 2.

I like the shiny hipster GUI and ease of use of the MacOS, however, I rarely use it for anything other than browsing the web, watching movies, listening to music, or editing music/movies/pictures.

I love the Gentoo partition because I had to compile it from the ground up, learn my way through every little problem, and really take complete ownership of the effectiveness of my OS. It's sort of like restoring an old car...you put so much blood, sweat, and tears into it, it becomes a part of yourself (corny I know). The Gentoo partition is by far the fastest on this computer, and is just as pretty and shiny as anything else. I use it also for GiMP photo manipulation (like photoshop) and general screwing around, as well as a tool to learn programming languages.

My Windows 7 RC 2 partition is mainly used for playing games that won't work on anything else, and I'd rather not have to run anything via QEMU or a virtual machine or under Wine (or darWine for that matter). It's a great OS, but I've never been overly impressed or comfortable with Microsoft.

Just my $.02.

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:19 pm

Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:(snip)


What's more interesting is where Linux is running, that people don't know or think about.

PDA's, SmartPhones, Digital Cable Converters, Home Wifi/Routers... I seriously doubt there's many people who do not have Linux running on at least one device in their home or office.... even if they do not know about it.

You have FIOS TV, or Digital Cable? Guess what, that set-top-box is running Linux...
You have a Palm with WebOS? Guess what, WebOS is Linux...
You have a Cisco/Linksys router for sharing your broadband? Guess what, that router is running Linux...
Company has a VOIP based telephone system? Guess what, the core servers handling the phones are running Linux...

That's Linux's strongest point over Windows... It's adaptable into any environment...
It's in Offices, it's in Homes.
It's supplying TV signals and telephones.
It's flying aircraft, and dropping bombs.
It's keeping the ISS in orbit, and running on Palms.
And where is Windows in all this? Dropping its own bombs....
Such heroic nonsense!

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Tunizcha
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Tunizcha » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:22 pm

I dual-boot Custom XP and Linux. Just for simplicity.
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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:31 pm

Tekania wrote:
Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:(snip)


What's more interesting is where Linux is running, that people don't know or think about.


Yes, it is interesting. The costs of licensing a proprietary OS are quite unnecessary for all those devices you mention. They sit in their box and do what they do, the configuration interface isn't that important (most users never see it, in fact it's locked up in so they can't in some devices,) so the manufacturers choose what is cheapest, easiest to make updates for and most reliable. That you can cut *nix right down in storage size and processor/RAM requirements must be a bonus too.

That's as far as I want to get back into this argument, thanks. :unsure:
Lucky Bicycle Works, previously BunnySaurus Bugsii.
"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

-- Mark Seymour

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Lord Tothe
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Lord Tothe » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:09 pm

Mac, Windows, Linux... You're all wrong! *gets Tandy 1000 from garage*

Damn - no web access, 640k memory, and a 5-1/4" floppy drive. DOS FTW!!!
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Conserative Morality
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:10 pm

Tekania wrote:That's Linux's strongest point over Windows... It's adaptable into any environment...

What's that old saying? "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:17 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Tekania wrote:That's Linux's strongest point over Windows... It's adaptable into any environment...

What's that old saying? "Jack of all trades, master of none"?


Ah, but you see.... it's ADAPTABLE into those areas. This is due to the scalability of design of Linux. Each of those examples is Linux master of that trade...

Since Linux is a multi-vendor, multi-user, multi-developer community design... It can be both a jack of all trades, and become a master of any trade... Community has defeated the old adage, because the old adage applies to individuals.
Such heroic nonsense!

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Tekania
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:22 pm

Lord Tothe wrote:Mac, Windows, Linux... You're all wrong! *gets Tandy 1000 from garage*

Damn - no web access, 640k memory, and a 5-1/4" floppy drive. DOS FTW!!!


You must have upgraded its RAM... Tandy 1000 shipped with only 128k

I had one as well ;) In fact... It was my 4th computer, behind a C128, a C64 and a TI99-4/A...
It was subsequently followed by a Tandy 1000SL/2, a Tandy Sensation, and a Digital Starrion 919 (which was the last desktop I owned that I didn't build myself).
Such heroic nonsense!

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Lord Tothe
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Re: Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

Postby Lord Tothe » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:27 am

Tekania wrote:
Lord Tothe wrote:Mac, Windows, Linux... You're all wrong! *gets Tandy 1000 from garage*

Damn - no web access, 640k memory, and a 5-1/4" floppy drive. DOS FTW!!!


You must have upgraded its RAM... Tandy 1000 shipped with only 128k

I had one as well ;) In fact... It was my 4th computer, behind a C128, a C64 and a TI99-4/A...
It was subsequently followed by a Tandy 1000SL/2, a Tandy Sensation, and a Digital Starrion 919 (which was the last desktop I owned that I didn't build myself).

Bought it for $30 at a garage sale last year, and yes it was upgraded. My dad's first PC was a DOS machine. I remember playing Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego on DOS.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:[...] TLDR; welcome to the internet. Bicker or GTFO.
"Why is self-control, autonomy, such a threat to authority? Because the person who controls himself, who is his own master, has no need for an authority to be his master. This, then, renders authority unemployed. What is he to do if he cannot control others? To be sure, he could mind his own business. But that is a fatuous answer, for those who are satisfied to mind their own business do not aspire to become authorities." ~ Thomas Szasz

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:51 am

Rejistania wrote:No, it will reduce the amount of market share because the OS would no longer work as the developers expect it. Usability experts are people who propagate one form of superstition and assume that the user is a moron. I am not a moron and would prefer twm over a ''usable'' GNOME.


Rejistania wrote:
I know quite a bit about GUI design and I know that randomly changing screens violates the criteria of working acording to expectations.


You know nothing about it. You have read maybe a book about GUI but that's it.

Usability experts are NOT people who propagate one form of superstition and DO NOT assume that the user is a moron.
Who told you that?

Usability experts will look at the user base, the context of their task and their environment.

If the target audience are computer experts then usability experts will take that in account.
If the people use the application frequently then you will see that in the design of a usability expert.

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:07 am

Tekania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:1. Sure, a lot of hardware simply doesn't work with Linux. And it's not only exotic stuff. I'll be silent about video drivers, video codecs, wireless stuff and just bugs... And if something goes wrong with Linux then it's pretty well wrong.


Most hardware works. Including most video hardware. There's not that many players in the Video Hardware world anymore... Anything from AMD/ATI, nVidia or Intel most certainly works.

Video Codecs, only have one word for you Gstreamer...

Wireless? Don't have any wireless issues on my laptop... Even using an Atheros based card.

You're proving to me you have no present-day experience with Linux... You're out-dated.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:2. Well why aren't we still using Lotus 123, dBase or WordPerfect? They were #1 once, they were the giants in their disciplines. They were not small little companies with no resources, no money or no people.


People are still using WordPerfect(No matter how much it sucks). Still being installed on NEW machines from the factory. I just uninstalled it from a new machine that was purchased for a client last week.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.


Must be because my 90 year old grandmother is more tech-savy than you. People who do not have a pre-conceived notion of doing things only "The MS Windows Way" do not have the same issues with Linux when starting fresh... It's not hard for someone to pick up... Hell people have serious issues with MS Word 2k7 who have been using Word 2k3, xp, 2k, 97..etc for years... It changed, and now they have to go about doing the same stuff they were doing before in a different way... And people hate change...

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Perception doesn't have to be false. I'm rather good in computers. I studied computer science and I'm having 20 years of professional experience. And I do find Linux not user-friendly. That doesn't mean it hasn't user-friendly parts and that doesn't mean that Windows or Mac are perfect either.


Well, considering you're bringing up linux arguments which are out-dated, I wonder if your experience itself isn't 20 years worth, but 20 years old...


You lie a lot (like that companies have to pay an OS tax to MS) and you use your own experience as the truth. Did you try out all available hardware? No, you didn't. But try to use Google once, and you will notice that many people complain about Linux - hardware issues.

Sure, people are using Wordperfect. Question is how many? And in the past almost everybody was using it. Point is, that a company can dominate the market, but that it doesn't mean that it is safe for ever. Microsoft is having a dominant position in several areas today, but that doesn't mean they will hold that position. But it will probably not be broken by Linux. 18 years boy, 18! And NOTHING changed. The market share didn't grow and you use the same lame excuses as the Linux girls of 1992.

You don't have a 90 years old grandmother who's using Linux. You know it, I know it.

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UNIverseVERSE
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby UNIverseVERSE » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:14 am

Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:Browser type is legitimately measured that way, because many sites work better if they know your browser type, so users have a good reason not to conceal it. And the browser is used to visit sites, so as long as they're polling a decent cross-section of sites they do get an accurate measurement of what proportion of users use each brand of browser.


Not necessarily. The 'sites work better if they know your browser type' argument cuts both ways. In one direction, they can better compensate for quirks (read major flaws) in support of standards (IE). In the other, it's still the case that sites will check what your browser claims to be, and prevent it from having access if it isn't a certain one (IE). Quite often, however, the site will still load if you change your user-agent to get past this stage*. As a result, there are a relatively large number of users who will report their browser as something like "IE on Windows XP" to make sure that they aren't kicked off sites.

*The most extreme example I've done is telling elinks to report itself as Firefox 3. Facebook then loaded and let me use it (with some minor issues).
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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:34 am

Heronfield wrote:everyone seems very angry about Linux in a Mac or Microsoft thread?


Those who pay money for their Operating System react emotionally against the possibility that they could have saved their money and got something comparable. Particularly if they are looking forward to the next version which they plan to spend money on.

And the reason for the entrenchment on all sides, is that many of us have invested time and effort in learning the ways of an operating system, which we usually "chose" for no particular reason in the first place. We were all noobs once.

Both Apple and Microsoft realized this years ago, and both sold computers into schools at a loss (the whole computer/OS package at a loss, in the case of Apple, and the licence for the OS at a loss, in the case of MS. MS could take bigger losses, and in any case was selling a thing which cost them nothing to make another copy of, so MS beat Apple at that.)

Not all of us sold our souls to our first loves, of course. Some of us have been forced to change OS (I spent years on Amiga, for instance) and have a jaded "oh, what's it matter?" attitude.

Some posters by choice or by occupation have to use one, two or all three of those OS's. Those people are a lot more reasonable and balanced -- their time and effort has been spread between all three OS's, so while they might have a preference for one they don't demonize any of them. You don't work with something you hate, and if you do ... you should get over it or find another line of work.
Last edited by Lucky Bicycle Works on Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

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Pure Metal
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Pure Metal » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:59 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Tekania wrote:That's Linux's strongest point over Windows... It's adaptable into any environment...

What's that old saying? "Jack of all trades, master of none"?

apart from servers. nix is the master of servers at the very least.


Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:Now you listen to me.
-snip-

hehe, i like you.
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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:59 am

UNIverseVERSE wrote:
Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:Browser type is legitimately measured that way, because many sites work better if they know your browser type, so users have a good reason not to conceal it. And the browser is used to visit sites, so as long as they're polling a decent cross-section of sites they do get an accurate measurement of what proportion of users use each brand of browser.


Not necessarily. The 'sites work better if they know your browser type' argument cuts both ways. In one direction, they can better compensate for quirks (read major flaws) in support of standards (IE). In the other, it's still the case that sites will check what your browser claims to be, and prevent it from having access if it isn't a certain one (IE). Quite often, however, the site will still load if you change your user-agent to get past this stage*. As a result, there are a relatively large number of users who will report their browser as something like "IE on Windows XP" to make sure that they aren't kicked off sites.

*The most extreme example I've done is telling elinks to report itself as Firefox 3. Facebook then loaded and let me use it (with some minor issues).


*nod*

I really should have said "browser surveys done from the reports of browsing computers to websites are more reliable than OS surveys done the same way." Not implied that they are accurate. More accurate was what I meant to say.

And the point I want to repeat, is that incidences of browsing (hits on sites) is in no way representative of the actual hours spent using a computer in one or another OS.

Experienced users hit less when they do browse, but they hit more accurately because they know what they're looking for. If there is a correlation between "more experience" and "using linux" it would tend to under-represent Linux users even in the site-hit stats. Quite apart from what else they might be doing with their computers.

It would be interesting to hear from a NS admin, what the NS server reports are of declared OS (and browser, for that matter.) It might be a reality-check for the perception I have that a lot more than 3% of NSG users get on with Linux (or dog-knows-what weird shit they wrote themselves.)
Lucky Bicycle Works, previously BunnySaurus Bugsii.
"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

-- Mark Seymour

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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:06 am

Pure Metal wrote:
Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:Now you listen to me.
-snip-

hehe, i like you.


I've been a fan of yours for years.

*Nobel Hobos bows*

I still have a problem keeping my posts short. Is there a Firefox plugin for that? ("GagFox"?)
Lucky Bicycle Works, previously BunnySaurus Bugsii.
"My town is a teacher.
Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

-- Mark Seymour

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The Alma Mater
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:08 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:You don't have a 90 years old grandmother who's using Linux. You know it, I know it.


Well... if grandma has a netbook - you know, those extremely basic subnotebooks that are becoming more popular by the day - it is quite possible it runs on a basic version of linux. Asus and Acer shipped an awful lot of those EEEs and Aspire Ones after all.

Not saying this particular grannie exists - just that it is not as unlikely as you imply it is.

You lie a lot (like that companies have to pay an OS tax to MS)


Oh, I dunno. The OEM agreements are quite intruiging. And the hardware "derequirements" for netbooks as set by intel and microsoft can be called blackmail - "if the device is not as crippled as we say it must be, we will no longer trade with you".
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Alma Mater
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:27 am

Heronfield wrote:everyone seems very angry about Linux in a Mac or Microsoft thread?


Yes. And oddly enough it is all about the products - and very little about the companies/organisations behind them. Almost nobody cares that Apple has been accused of (though they themselves deny) employing sweat shop labourers, including children, on various occasions. Almost nobody cares that microsoft has been convicted several times for abusing a monopoly or how they run their businesses.

As long as the iPods are shiney and IE works to browse for porn - who cares if it was made by 6 year old slaves or bankrupted dozens of small companies ? Let us instead focus on how silly people that still use consoles are ;)
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Pure Metal
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Pure Metal » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:02 am

Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:
Pure Metal wrote:
Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:Now you listen to me.
-snip-

hehe, i like you.


I've been a fan of yours for years.

*Nobel Hobos bows*

I still have a problem keeping my posts short. Is there a Firefox plugin for that? ("GagFox"?)

STFUFox works pretty well :p

The Alma Mater wrote:Well... if grandma has a netbook - you know, those extremely basic subnotebooks that are becoming more popular by the day...


you know, i actually quite want one of those, but i'm finding it hard to convince myself to get one considering how useless it'll be compared to my XPS 1730 laptop. the battery life would be better, but that's about it, and i have mobile broadband on this thing as well. but they're all small and cool and stuff! *wants new toy*
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The Alma Mater
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:11 am

Pure Metal wrote:you know, i actually quite want one of those, but i'm finding it hard to convince myself to get one considering how useless it'll be compared to my XPS 1730 laptop. the battery life would be better, but that's about it, and i have mobile broadband on this thing as well. but they're all small and cool and stuff! *wants new toy*


Do not underestimate the benefit of the small size - especially with the 10 inch and lower models. They are only slightly bigger than a book and therefor fit in almost every bag.

Think of them as an oversized PDA instead of a stripped down notebook ;)
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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