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Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

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The_pantless_hero
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:16 am

Tekania wrote:The problem if definitely "perception" though... It's the false "perception" that only nerds are capable of using Linux... And that's it... FALSE perception.

And they do a horrible, HORRIBLE job of dispelling that. They either need to capitalize on that perception and use it as a selling point (like Apple does for trendy douchebags) or COMPLETELY get rid of it and market to the middle.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:24 am

Tekania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Now, you know why it is sometimes difficult to get things done on a Linux machine and why Linux is having only a market share of 1% since 18 years.


There are two questions there:
1. It is not difficult to "get things done" on Linux. While it lacks the games of Windows, it is on par in terms of productivity. Your typical office environment could function just as well running Linux as Windows, and have far less overhead eating up profits from initial cost and maintenance/repair cost.
2. Linux has a market share of 1% because it's not Windows... It's not a Microsoft branded product. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with reliability or usability... That's where you're wrong... It has to do with familiarity of the name "Microsoft Windows". You have tons of people sticking with Office 2003, why? Because it's familiar.... You have people buying the new Office 2007 (and then bitching endlessly about it because they changed it) because it's from Microsoft...

Hairless Kitten II wrote:In the perception of a nerd, a Linux system is user-friendly, in the perception of the other species it's a mess.

Most people are not nerds.


My 90 year old Grandmother is running Linux on her computer. And she still thinks light-switches are magic...

The problem if definitely "perception" though... It's the false "perception" that only nerds are capable of using Linux... And that's it... FALSE perception.


1. Sure, a lot of hardware simply doesn't work with Linux. And it's not only exotic stuff. I'll be silent about video drivers, video codecs, wireless stuff and just bugs... And if something goes wrong with Linux then it's pretty well wrong.

2. Well why aren't we still using Lotus 123, dBase or WordPerfect? They were #1 once, they were the giants in their disciplines. They were not small little companies with no resources, no money or no people.

Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.

Perception doesn't have to be false. I'm rather good in computers. I studied computer science and I'm having 20 years of professional experience. And I do find Linux not user-friendly. That doesn't mean it hasn't user-friendly parts and that doesn't mean that Windows or Mac are perfect either.

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The_pantless_hero
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:40 am

I am pretty sure Corel or some one bought Word Perfect and it keeps coming with computers...
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:42 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.

That's two to three clicks PLUS having to know the command to launch the firewall settings.

Firewall opens up the firewall settings? holy shit.
You-Gi-Owe wrote:I hate all "spin doctoring". I don't mind honest disagreement and it's possible that people are expressing honest opinions, but spin doctoring is so pervasive, I gotta ask if I suspect it.

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The_pantless_hero
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:56 am

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:
The_pantless_hero wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.

That's two to three clicks PLUS having to know the command to launch the firewall settings.

Firewall opens up the firewall settings? holy shit.

"Hey look at me, I'm being a dick!"

if it doesn't, you have managed to show that you can use the console to access a GUI that anyone else can access in the same number of clicks without having to know console commands. Good job, you win 1i internet!
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:56 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:I am pretty sure Corel or some one bought Word Perfect and it keeps coming with computers...


Sure what is the market share?

It was once king of the hill. And now...

That does mean that people are prepared to do a software move, if the contender is better and is giving what the people want.

Something Linux didn't achieve in 18 years. Linux isn't having even a serious market share (<1%) !

If THAT operating system was indeed better than Windows, then more people would have it on their desktop. It didn't happen, sorry.

So something went wrong...

Well Linux girls: hire a team of fucking good usability engineers and your market share will double and even triple. Guaranteed.

But who will pay them? No one, it's open source, remember. Catch-22.
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The_pantless_hero
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:58 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:
The_pantless_hero wrote:I am pretty sure Corel or some one bought Word Perfect and it keeps coming with computers...


Sure what is the market share?

MY GOD WHAT IS WITH PEOPLE WRITING PARAGRAPHS ONE LINE AT A TIME IN DOUBLE SPACE.

It's market share of existence? Rather high I would guess. Of use? Very low because it isn't intercompatible with Word.
Yes, that is double spaced. I am also not writing TEN FUCKING LINES.
Last edited by The_pantless_hero on Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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The Tofu Islands
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Tofu Islands » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:59 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:But who will pay them? No one, it's open source, remember. Catch-22.

I think that Mozilla's employees might disagree.
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:04 am

The Tofu Islands wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:But who will pay them? No one, it's open source, remember. Catch-22.

I think that Mozilla's employees might disagree.


Sure Aza Raskin will change the look and feel of the complete Linux OS for free, while he his working on a browser...

Dream on.

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Rejistania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Rejistania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:05 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:
Rejistania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.


The usability in amazon is so crappy that even if I would get over their horrible approach to privacy, I wouldn't register there or buy anything from them. :twisted:


Privacy is rather a functional issue than a usability one.

You would be amazed what they do to earn more money. I'll give you one simple example:

They often try out new screens but do not show them to the entire population of users. That way they can benchmark which approach is resulting in the most $.

And their one-click buying system is a direct result of usability engineering.

I said that this is the main issue, which is worse than their usability. but the usability is horrible as well. And randomly testing new screens is one of the examples of bad usability, not of good one.

Well Linux girls: hire a team of fucking good usability engineers and your market share will double and even triple. Guaranteed.


No, it will reduce the amount of market share because the OS would no longer work as the developers expect it. Usability experts are people who propagate one form of superstition and assume that the user is a moron. I am not a moron and would prefer twm over a ''usable'' GNOME.
Rejis sjiki, linux sjiki, alari sjiki, korona sjiki!
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"Tekneluru mi'aru mi aji, il'sidekhir'ra mi, lajistas. Mi'ki'vasu kynha'het kijitax." Hank͜hila Sede, first lentine (translation: A dream is only a dream until it is reached. After that, it becomes something trivial)

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The Tofu Islands
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Tofu Islands » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:12 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Sure Aza Raskin will change the look and feel of the complete Linux OS for free, while he his working on a browser...

Dream on.

Wait, what?

I was just saying that open source ≠ no money involved. There are various companies that hire people to write code that is open-sourced. Mozilla would be one example. Canonical would be another.
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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:30 am

Rejistania wrote:I said that this is the main issue, which is worse than their usability. but the usability is horrible as well. And randomly testing new screens is one of the examples of bad usability, not of good one.


You have no clue about what you are talking. First it's not randomly. They look at the weak points and try to improve them.

A/B testing is very valuable and rather fair.
If screen A is generating $1000 and screen B is generating $2000 then screen B is better.
A/B testing is also used to test performance but it's also nice for testing qualitative parameters.
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:38 am

The Tofu Islands wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Sure Aza Raskin will change the look and feel of the complete Linux OS for free, while he his working on a browser...

Dream on.

Wait, what?

I was just saying that open source ≠ no money involved. There are various companies that hire people to write code that is open-sourced. Mozilla would be one example. Canonical would be another.


Do you know what a usability engineer is costing? Well, it's about $150 to $200 for each hour and some even ask much more. It takes 6 to 8 years of study after your high school. Let us assume that you need 3 to 5 years to gain experience and thus be labelled as a fairly good usability engineer.

That will say you are around your thirties. You are starting to settle down or your already did, you have a wife or a husband, you have a loan to repay your house, maybe a few kids and a fucking dog. You don't have time to offer your life to the free community of Linux.

A programmer is a different animal. Programming is easy. In 1 or 2 years you can be a good programmer, if you want to. So teenagers can spend a lot of time on programming for the kick, the fame, the glory or whatever and this for free in the Linux world.
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Rejistania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Rejistania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:41 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:
Rejistania wrote:I said that this is the main issue, which is worse than their usability. but the usability is horrible as well. And randomly testing new screens is one of the examples of bad usability, not of good one.


You have no clue about what you are talking. First it's not randomly. They look at the weak points and try to improve them.

A/B testing is very valuable and rather fair.
If screen A is generating $1000 and screen B is generating $2000 then screen B is better.
A/B testing is also used to test performance but it's also nice for testing qualitative parameters.

Itis randomly since I assume the users who get the new screens are randomly selected. Which is what I refered to.

I know quite a bit about GUI design and I know that randomly changing screens violates the criteria of working acording to expectations.
Rejis sjiki, linux sjiki, alari sjiki, korona sjiki!
Forever united, forever free, forever in justice, forever prospering!


"Tekneluru mi'aru mi aji, il'sidekhir'ra mi, lajistas. Mi'ki'vasu kynha'het kijitax." Hank͜hila Sede, first lentine (translation: A dream is only a dream until it is reached. After that, it becomes something trivial)

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Heronfield
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Heronfield » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:51 am

everyone seems very angry about Linux in a Mac or Microsoft thread?

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:55 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:
Tekania wrote:The problem if definitely "perception" though... It's the false "perception" that only nerds are capable of using Linux... And that's it... FALSE perception.

And they do a horrible, HORRIBLE job of dispelling that. They either need to capitalize on that perception and use it as a selling point (like Apple does for trendy douchebags) or COMPLETELY get rid of it and market to the middle.


But, there's no real marketing. And what marketing there is is aimed primarily at businesses, because that is where the "commercial" linux vendors, and their buddies, get their money from.

Most of linux is found in user-community, Linux's market share is almost purely word of mouth... So that fact that it holds even a small amount against companies with funnel millions into ad campaigns itself says alot LOL.

Microsoft builds its ad campaign to aim at "ease of use"
Apple builds its ad campaign to aim at PC users being dorks, Apple users being cool.
Linux virtually has no ad campaign... IBM did do some advertising, but it was aimed at corporate interests, and Linux's scalability for use in Corporate/Industry.
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The Alma Mater
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:55 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:That's two to three clicks PLUS having to know the command to launch the firewall settings.


True - but at least typing firewall works in XP, Vista and windows 7 - while the menu structure to get to that screen has changed in every version. The "console skills" - although with windows 7 it is more of a clever launchpad for people who like typing (kudos to ms for understanding people like me. Finally) - remain useful. The memorised menuclicks do not.

That I personally detest the network center of course does not help either, but that is a sideissue.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The_pantless_hero
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:03 am

Tekania wrote:Most of linux is found in user-community, Linux's market share is almost purely word of mouth... So that fact that it holds even a small amount against companies with funnel millions into ad campaigns itself says alot LOL.

No, it doesn't. Considering Linux consists of a very large number of distros even I can name at least half a dozen of if I try and that how many other OSs are there that are up to date?
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:15 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:1. Sure, a lot of hardware simply doesn't work with Linux. And it's not only exotic stuff. I'll be silent about video drivers, video codecs, wireless stuff and just bugs... And if something goes wrong with Linux then it's pretty well wrong.


Most hardware works. Including most video hardware. There's not that many players in the Video Hardware world anymore... Anything from AMD/ATI, nVidia or Intel most certainly works.

Video Codecs, only have one word for you Gstreamer...

Wireless? Don't have any wireless issues on my laptop... Even using an Atheros based card.

You're proving to me you have no present-day experience with Linux... You're out-dated.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:2. Well why aren't we still using Lotus 123, dBase or WordPerfect? They were #1 once, they were the giants in their disciplines. They were not small little companies with no resources, no money or no people.


People are still using WordPerfect(No matter how much it sucks). Still being installed on NEW machines from the factory. I just uninstalled it from a new machine that was purchased for a client last week.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.


Must be because my 90 year old grandmother is more tech-savy than you. People who do not have a pre-conceived notion of doing things only "The MS Windows Way" do not have the same issues with Linux when starting fresh... It's not hard for someone to pick up... Hell people have serious issues with MS Word 2k7 who have been using Word 2k3, xp, 2k, 97..etc for years... It changed, and now they have to go about doing the same stuff they were doing before in a different way... And people hate change...

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Perception doesn't have to be false. I'm rather good in computers. I studied computer science and I'm having 20 years of professional experience. And I do find Linux not user-friendly. That doesn't mean it hasn't user-friendly parts and that doesn't mean that Windows or Mac are perfect either.


Well, considering you're bringing up linux arguments which are out-dated, I wonder if your experience itself isn't 20 years worth, but 20 years old...
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:28 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:
The Tofu Islands wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:But who will pay them? No one, it's open source, remember. Catch-22.

I think that Mozilla's employees might disagree.


Sure Aza Raskin will change the look and feel of the complete Linux OS for free, while he his working on a browser...

Dream on.


There is no "Look and feel" of Linux.... Linux is the Operating System... Operating Systems do not have "look and feel". There are various look-and-feels FOR Linux (and other unixes), called Desktop Environments... Usually it's Gnome or KDE, though there are others. And they are constantly evolving, hell KDE4 was a complete from-the-ground-up built, by community developers no-less.
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:38 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:No, it doesn't. Considering Linux consists of a very large number of distros even I can name at least half a dozen of if I try and that how many other OSs are there that are up to date?


How many OS's are there that are up to date? Really, only four.... Present day Bell-Labs descendents of Unix System V, Present-day descendents of BSD Unix (Which includes Mac OSX), Present-day Linux, and Present-day descendents of VMS. Besides those, there are no other mainline Operating Systems...
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Mikertaz Kein
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Mikertaz Kein » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:58 pm

:blink:

I had no idea the number of people who support Linux.

I shall change the thread name to include this....

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:19 pm

Mikertaz Kein wrote::blink:

I had no idea the number of people who support Linux.

I shall change the thread name to include this....


No surprise. It's more prevalent than what is stated in "Market Share" studies... Since they are based off of OS purchases.... If someone buys a Dell machine with Windows pre-installed, it's counted as a "Windows User" even if they guy wipes it as soon as he opens the box, and installs a *nix on it... Statistics can make anything look good, by manipulating the defining criteria to get the result you want...
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Lucky Bicycle Works
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Lucky Bicycle Works » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:38 pm

The_pantless_hero wrote:*snip*

MY GOD WHAT IS WITH PEOPLE WRITING PARAGRAPHS ONE LINE AT A TIME IN DOUBLE SPACE.

It's market share of existence? Rather high I would guess. Of use? Very low because it isn't intercompatible with Word.
Yes, that is double spaced. I am also not writing TEN FUCKING LINES.


Now you listen to me.

I will space my paragraphs however I please. If all you can find to object to in a properly spelled and comprehensibly grammatical post is the spacing of the paragraphs, then your mood or temprament is not suited to debating anything.

Double spacing between paragraphs is the standard for manuscripts, as is starting a paragraph without tab or spaces.

Because almost no-one here uses a tab at start of paragraph, and because the default font here is not justified (ie, stretched out so the last word of a line goes to the right margin) it is the right standard to use, because without it a paragraph ending with a full-stop at the right margin would not appear as a paragraph at all. The next paragraph, starting on the next line, would appear to be the continuation of the same paragraph (except for the rare user who has non-printing characters like the paragraph symbol ¶ displaying.)

Not only is it astoundingly petty of you to object to people putting a line between paragraphs, it is also WRONG.

If readability matters less to you than space taken up on your screen ... I suggest you find your Page Down button. Those of us who find a post (and particularly a long post) easier to read with the paragraphs clearly separated will continue to do that in our own posts.

Shouting at us isn't going to make us change that habit. You can forget that.
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Oh, trucks and beers and memories
All spread out on the road.
Oh, my town is a leader of children,
To where Caution
Is a Long Wide Load"

-- Mark Seymour

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Conserative Morality
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Posts: 76675
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:42 pm

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Oh yeah, the usual grandmother is again on the party. It seems that ALL Linux users have a 90 year old grandmother. Well, I don't believe you. You would for less if you heard this crap already a million times.

As long as we're speaking of Grandparents, my Grandmother uses Vista and loves it. :)
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
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