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Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Getbrett
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Getbrett » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:26 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Shortcut commands on a keyboard are not designed for everyone.

If you use a specific piece of software once a year then it will be hard to remember the shortcut.

Shortcuts are nice for experienced users of a tool that use it often.

Are they faster then a move to the mouse + click?

Depends about the level of the typist. If he's good at the keyboard then he'll be faster. But many people hunt and peck for a key...

A part of the reason why Linux sucks at usability is the lack of usability engineers working in that OS.


Not really, there's plenty of usability engineers and guidelines working with Linux - it's just their hands are tied by the arguments presented above: they can't make a decent GUI because there's so much opposition to simplification.

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Venezue
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Venezue » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:31 am

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:51 am

Getbrett wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Shortcut commands on a keyboard are not designed for everyone.

If you use a specific piece of software once a year then it will be hard to remember the shortcut.

Shortcuts are nice for experienced users of a tool that use it often.

Are they faster then a move to the mouse + click?

Depends about the level of the typist. If he's good at the keyboard then he'll be faster. But many people hunt and peck for a key...

A part of the reason why Linux sucks at usability is the lack of usability engineers working in that OS.


Not really, there's plenty of usability engineers and guidelines working with Linux - it's just their hands are tied by the arguments presented above: they can't make a decent GUI because there's so much opposition to simplification.


Guidelines are only a very small part of usability. They are not that important. And they can extract most topics from the guidelines for Windows or Mac and other OS. They are rather universal.

And no there are not a lot usability engineers (UE) working in the Linux field. There aren't that many working in the Windows & Mac field as well. And I'm talking about real ones: guys with a grade in cognitive psychology & computer science. Not some webbuilding cowboy that have read a book about the subject.

The opposition you claim, well, the UE's for Windows & Mac have that opposition as well and certainly not alone from the development department.

Simplification isn't necessarily good usability. Usability engineering means that you reshape a software product for a specific task, in a specific environment for a specific user base while using an engineering approach.

I hope that you understand that from a cost/benefit approach that resources are extremely low for conducting a context task analysis, creating user-profiles, etc... for an environment that's mostly free AND does have a relative small user base as Linux.
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:11 am

Pure Metal wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.

ah but you have to know what that option/command is in order to use it.
to me, this kinda sums up the last couple of pages of arguments on this thread - while there's nothing wrong with users learning about how to use their systems (fixing things, doing maintenance through the command line, etc), this is still seen as scary to a lot of average users, and will turn them off. most don't want to have to invest time in learning how to use their OS.

firewall and firewall.cpl take you to the GUI and they take you there fast.
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Rhodmhire
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Rhodmhire » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:18 am

Microsoft because it doesn't make me angry.

EDIT: Unless society embraces it.
Last edited by Rhodmhire on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:25 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.


IOW, you effectively run it through a console, negating all the earlier "consoles are the past" argument... LOL
Such heroic nonsense!

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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:36 am

Tekania wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.


IOW, you effectively run it through a console, negating all the earlier "consoles are the past" argument... LOL

Not really, it's a search that brings you to a GUI. You don't need to know how to get there or what to do when you get there. It's like the difference between using google and typing in the url bar.
You-Gi-Owe wrote:I hate all "spin doctoring". I don't mind honest disagreement and it's possible that people are expressing honest opinions, but spin doctoring is so pervasive, I gotta ask if I suspect it.

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:37 am

Pure Metal wrote:ah but you have to know what that option/command is in order to use it.
to me, this kinda sums up the last couple of pages of arguments on this thread - while there's nothing wrong with users learning about how to use their systems (fixing things, doing maintenance through the command line, etc), this is still seen as scary to a lot of average users, and will turn them off. most don't want to have to invest time in learning how to use their OS.


Yep, can't win can I?
If I talk about how functional a present-day Linux GUI is vs. Windows, I get how quicker one can get there by running the program via a command
If I talk about how functional the Linux console is, I get how obsolete consoles have become.

Pure Metal wrote:
Tekania wrote:*BTW the "Auto CDMA.." there is an auto-detected Mobile Broadband, unlike Windows, Linux does not need special software or connection utilities to use cellular broadband service [unlike Windows] Fedora has been good about that.

And it of course auto-reconnects to the last used wifi connection when it's in range.

my Vista does both of those...
Image


Good for Vista... I dislike how it does wireless though. In terms of ease-of-use, it takes more clicks. Vista minimum to connect to new wireless 5.... Fedore w/ Gnome 2...

And the CDMA thing is only that good on Fedora, to be honest, Ubuntu needs work in that department. (Though I haven't tried it on 9.x yet)
Such heroic nonsense!

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Peisandros
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Peisandros » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:42 am

OMGZ, I THINK MY COMP IZ BTA THAN URRRRZZZZZ.
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Dakini » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:46 am

Pure Metal wrote:ah but you have to know what that option/command is in order to use it.
to me, this kinda sums up the last couple of pages of arguments on this thread - while there's nothing wrong with users learning about how to use their systems (fixing things, doing maintenance through the command line, etc), this is still seen as scary to a lot of average users, and will turn them off. most don't want to have to invest time in learning how to use their OS.

In linux you only need to know what the command starts with, then you can happily hit tab for autocompletion and it will give you the options. If you're not sure what flags are appropriate on a command, you just put "man " in front of it and it will tell you without having to go to the internet and run a search. Although really, if you don't know what command to use for a task, running a google search for it will result in many useful tips. You don't really have to invest a lot of time learning to use the OS, in my undergrad career I had one class where they were supposed to teach us programming, but instead spent most of the time teaching us to use windows (~2 months). Another class had one day on starting cygwin and then onto a unix environment in less than a week.

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:49 am

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:IOW, you effectively run it through a console, negating all the earlier "consoles are the past" argument... LOL

Not really, it's a search that brings you to a GUI. You don't need to know how to get there or what to do when you get there. It's like the difference between using google and typing in the url bar.[/quote]

Once again, it negates the whole command argument. Because you're proposing doing something no different than what the Linux community does. I can get to my firewall configurator under Gnome just as quick as you get to your "search" with no typing needed. So you're still proving linux as the more efficient better GUI... LOL... And if you want to slap your search/run on the desktop... So can I... either way, you're not moving quicker than I am, in or out of the GUI.
Such heroic nonsense!

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Rejistania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Rejistania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:56 am

Dakini wrote:
Pure Metal wrote:ah but you have to know what that option/command is in order to use it.
to me, this kinda sums up the last couple of pages of arguments on this thread - while there's nothing wrong with users learning about how to use their systems (fixing things, doing maintenance through the command line, etc), this is still seen as scary to a lot of average users, and will turn them off. most don't want to have to invest time in learning how to use their OS.

In linux you only need to know what the command starts with, then you can happily hit tab for autocompletion and it will give you the options. If you're not sure what flags are appropriate on a command, you just put "man " in front of it and it will tell you without having to go to the internet and run a search. Although really, if you don't know what command to use for a task, running a google search for it will result in many useful tips. You don't really have to invest a lot of time learning to use the OS, in my undergrad career I had one class where they were supposed to teach us programming, but instead spent most of the time teaching us to use windows (~2 months). Another class had one day on starting cygwin and then onto a unix environment in less than a week.

Maybe I should remark that the fish even is able to offer tab-completion for options. ie: rm -<tab> and the options are listed :)


BTW: The few things I learned about usability is that to me the state before looks better than the one after. and that V***a-picture was horrible...
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:56 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Simplification isn't necessarily good usability. Usability engineering means that you reshape a software product for a specific task, in a specific environment for a specific user base while using an engineering approach.


BAAAAD idea... VERY bad idea. When making a general purpose OS you don't want to overspecialize... It's no wonder they get so much opposition LOL... It's great when you're specializing a piece of software for a specific industry, but for GP? Nope...
Such heroic nonsense!

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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:14 am

Tekania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Simplification isn't necessarily good usability. Usability engineering means that you reshape a software product for a specific task, in a specific environment for a specific user base while using an engineering approach.


BAAAAD idea... VERY bad idea. When making a general purpose OS you don't want to overspecialize... It's no wonder they get so much opposition LOL... It's great when you're specializing a piece of software for a specific industry, but for GP? Nope...


Bad idea? It is a standard approach or wait a minute, it should be a standard approach for ALL applications.

Even if you work for a big audience, you still can create user profiles, conduct a task context analysis, create environment profiles, etc...

Not everything of an OS is used by everyone, the diverse parts can be designed to the specific needs of a specific public.
Or do you really think that by instance the registry in Windows is used by all?

At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.
Or what about the iPhone?

You are that Linux advocate isn't?
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Rejistania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:20 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.


The usability in amazon is so crappy that even if I would get over their horrible approach to privacy, I wouldn't register there or buy anything from them. :twisted:
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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:24 am

Rejistania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.


The usability in amazon is so crappy that even if I would get over their horrible approach to privacy, I wouldn't register there or buy anything from them. :twisted:


Privacy is rather a functional issue than a usability one.

You would be amazed what they do to earn more money. I'll give you one simple example:

They often try out new screens but do not show them to the entire population of users. That way they can benchmark which approach is resulting in the most $.

And their one-click buying system is a direct result of usability engineering.
Last edited by Hairless Kitten II on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:36 am

Tekania wrote:
NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:IOW, you effectively run it through a console, negating all the earlier "consoles are the past" argument... LOL

Not really, it's a search that brings you to a GUI. You don't need to know how to get there or what to do when you get there. It's like the difference between using google and typing in the url bar.


Once again, it negates the whole command argument. Because you're proposing doing something no different than what the Linux community does. I can get to my firewall configurator under Gnome just as quick as you get to your "search" with no typing needed. So you're still proving linux as the more efficient better GUI... LOL... And if you want to slap your search/run on the desktop... So can I... either way, you're not moving quicker than I am, in or out of the GUI.[/quote]
OMGZ YOU SO OUTSMARTED ME. Too bad I never said windows was better than linux.
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:41 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Bad idea? It is a standard approach or wait a minute, it should be a standard approach for ALL applications.


It should NOT be the standard approach for all applications. Applications which fit GP roles, should not be specialized. Building something for a specialized industry should. Or the better model is GP applications with add-ons which allow for its tailoring to a particular industry when needed.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Even if you work for a big audience, you still can create user profiles, conduct a task context analysis, create environment profiles, etc...

Not everything of an OS is used by everyone, the diverse parts can be designed to the specific needs of a specific public.
Or do you really think that by instance the registry in Windows is used by all?


Well, besides my absolute abhorrence of the implementation of the Windows Registry in the first place... No, not everyone needs go there. But then why argue ease of repair if you're not expecting "everyday people" to do them?

Hairless Kitten II wrote:At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.

You are that Linux advocate isn't?


I'm a common-sense advocate, I work multi-platform. My opinions on Linux are ones built over supporting various OS/Platforms in the marketplace over more than a decade... I don't order people to shift, I sit down with their needs, and present IT budget requirements, existing infrastructure and software needs/wants/uses; and do TCO's which cover Software Costs/Migration, Hardware Costs/Upgrades, Maintenance Cost and (Re)training Costs (where needed or advised).... Then I let the numbers speak... See, unlike Corp-Sales-Reps, I don't make money trying to push a product-line... My goal is what is best for the client, and since about 80% of my new business is word-of-mouth referrals from existing clients, I must be doing something right...
Such heroic nonsense!

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:42 am

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:OMGZ YOU SO OUTSMARTED ME. Too bad I never said windows was better than linux.


No, but others did... I just had to prove that in no way constituted an "improvement" LOL.
Such heroic nonsense!

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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Pure Metal » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:43 am

Tekania wrote:Yep, can't win can I?
If I talk about how functional a present-day Linux GUI is vs. Windows, I get how quicker one can get there by running the program via a command
If I talk about how functional the Linux console is, I get how obsolete consoles have become.

lol no.... possibly because a lot of this is rather subjective :P

Dakini wrote:In linux you only need to know what the command starts with, then you can happily hit tab for autocompletion and it will give you the options. If you're not sure what flags are appropriate on a command, you just put "man " in front of it and it will tell you without having to go to the internet and run a search. Although really, if you don't know what command to use for a task, running a google search for it will result in many useful tips.

true, and good point!
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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:50 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Privacy is rather a functional issue than a usability one.

You would be amazed what they do to earn more money. I'll give you one simple example:

They often try out new screens but do not show them to the entire population of users. That way they can benchmark which approach is resulting in the most $.

And their one-click buying system is a direct result of usability engineering.


That is called "social engineering"... It's the ultimate downfall of the computer... Because it has nothing to do with the computer... LOL

It's also how the most prevalent malware is getting spread now... "Social engineering". When you realize most people have protection on their system, you fall back to tricking the stupid to do what you want, bypassing what-ever security is in place. Why? Because they don't know any better, and they're being reared in an environment where the primary OS vendor encourages them not to. Because intelligence is bad for marketing.

You can't patch stupid... Never going to see it roll down from Windows/Microsoft Update...
Last edited by Tekania on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hairless Kitten II
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Hairless Kitten II » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:01 am

Tekania wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:Bad idea? It is a standard approach or wait a minute, it should be a standard approach for ALL applications.


It should NOT be the standard approach for all applications. Applications which fit GP roles, should not be specialized. Building something for a specialized industry should. Or the better model is GP applications with add-ons which allow for its tailoring to a particular industry when needed.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Even if you work for a big audience, you still can create user profiles, conduct a task context analysis, create environment profiles, etc...

Not everything of an OS is used by everyone, the diverse parts can be designed to the specific needs of a specific public.
Or do you really think that by instance the registry in Windows is used by all?


Well, besides my absolute abhorrence of the implementation of the Windows Registry in the first place... No, not everyone needs go there. But then why argue ease of repair if you're not expecting "everyday people" to do them?

Hairless Kitten II wrote:At Amazon they did work with several usability engineering approaches. Amazon is having more customers as Linux is having users.

You are that Linux advocate isn't?


I'm a common-sense advocate, I work multi-platform. My opinions on Linux are ones built over supporting various OS/Platforms in the marketplace over more than a decade... I don't order people to shift, I sit down with their needs, and present IT budget requirements, existing infrastructure and software needs/wants/uses; and do TCO's which cover Software Costs/Migration, Hardware Costs/Upgrades, Maintenance Cost and (Re)training Costs (where needed or advised).... Then I let the numbers speak... See, unlike Corp-Sales-Reps, I don't make money trying to push a product-line... My goal is what is best for the client, and since about 80% of my new business is word-of-mouth referrals from existing clients, I must be doing something right...


And that's the reason why Linux fails on usability. Most Linux people I know, but not all, share your narrow view.

In fact usability engineering is a little like marketing:

If you don't know who your customers are, then it will be harder to find them.
If you don't know how they will use it, then you will build the wrong functionality and you will be not aware about the needed one.
If you don't know where they will use it then you are risking to make bikinis for people near the pole circle.

It's not that your audience is huge that you can't provide these specific data. No, it will be not as precisly as making software for 20 or 30 people, but it is still much better than a programmer that is creating software with himself as the audience.

Programmers in the Linux world (but also at Windows or Mac) make mostly the following mistakes:

1) All the people are like me, the programmer
2) All the people are the same.

Now, you know why it is sometimes difficult to get things done on a Linux machine and why Linux is having only a market share of 1% since 18 years.

In the perception of a nerd, a Linux system is user-friendly, in the perception of the other species it's a mess.

Most people are not nerds.

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Tekania
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby Tekania » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:23 am

Hairless Kitten II wrote:Now, you know why it is sometimes difficult to get things done on a Linux machine and why Linux is having only a market share of 1% since 18 years.


There are two questions there:
1. It is not difficult to "get things done" on Linux. While it lacks the games of Windows, it is on par in terms of productivity. Your typical office environment could function just as well running Linux as Windows, and have far less overhead eating up profits from initial cost and maintenance/repair cost.
2. Linux has a market share of 1% because it's not Windows... It's not a Microsoft branded product. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with reliability or usability... That's where you're wrong... It has to do with familiarity of the name "Microsoft Windows". You have tons of people sticking with Office 2003, why? Because it's familiar.... You have people buying the new Office 2007 (and then bitching endlessly about it because they changed it) because it's from Microsoft...

Hairless Kitten II wrote:In the perception of a nerd, a Linux system is user-friendly, in the perception of the other species it's a mess.

Most people are not nerds.


My 90 year old Grandmother is running Linux on her computer. And she still thinks light-switches are magic...

The problem if definitely "perception" though... It's the false "perception" that only nerds are capable of using Linux... And that's it... FALSE perception.
Such heroic nonsense!

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The_pantless_hero
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Founded: Mar 19, 2007
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Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:06 am

Treznor wrote:No, I didn't miss it. But he keeps insisting that the command line is a sign of backwardness

Sure I do, if you can't be bothered to see the forest for all the trees in the way.

It's very much a Microsoft mindset,

Microsoft Windows, the only GUI based OS. No wonder they are winning the OS wars.

Even if he's not a Microsoft (or Apple) fanboy, he's using all their favorite arguments.

That a console as a primary interface is a step backwards for user OS'?
I'm sorry. The Linux fanboys don't get to kick and scream and yell fanboy without being able to identify the opponent as a fanboy of anything at all.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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The_pantless_hero
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Posts: 4302
Founded: Mar 19, 2007
Ex-Nation

Re: Mac or Microsoft?

Postby The_pantless_hero » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:08 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Tekania wrote:I can get to either the network config, or the firewall config (from the desktop) in three clicks, and I don't have to open 1-2 different windows to get there in-between (cough-Vista-cough)...


You can get to the firewall settings through clicks in windows ?
I usually just typed firewall (or firewall.cpl) in the run window... consoles are so much more efficient and require less searching around the whole system for a menu option for a casual user as myself...

EDIT: and yes, I am serious. I really do NOT wish to plough through menus to find an option.

That's two to three clicks PLUS having to know the command to launch the firewall settings.
Last edited by The_pantless_hero on Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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