Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

[Dakini]

Yes, because PgDown really solves my problems. And go to really assumes you know where you are going.
And I use "search for" all the time, when it is relevant: Ctrl+F "whatever i am looking for.

It's not clear to me what your saying at the moment. By-page scrolling solves the "holding down the by-line movement keys for ages" problem -- it's about as good as dragging a scrollbar around. And vim, for example, has a '%' command that allows you to move to an area of the document quickly; typing "50%" will jump to half-way through the buffer. That's probably about as good as clicking on part of the scrollbar.

It's not.

You're right, it's more precise.

I wonder if emacs has this command too, it sounds useful.

[The_pantless_hero]

You brought up the claim that mucking about in system folders in Windows implies a certain level of knowledge.

After you said a person unfamiliar with the system would be doing it. No one unfamiliar with their computer would even go into those folders, much less be trying to do anything in there.

I'm turning it around and pointing out that the same applies to Linux.

Which was relevant to nothing said up until this point.

How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.

And this kind of elitist horseshit is why Linux will NEVER compete with Windows as a mainstream, desktop OS.

[Dakini]

How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.

And this kind of elitist horseshit is why Linux will NEVER compete with Windows as a mainstream, desktop OS.

How is it "elitist horseshit"? If one didn't know about alternative to notepad, one shouldn't bitch about notepad because they didn't bother to learn about the alternatives.

Sort of like earlier, when you were bitching about iTunes and how it was such a bad program but you had to use it to buy from the iTunes store even though there are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the iTunes store that you could also buy from. This seems to be a trend with you.

[The Tofu Islands]

You're right, it's more precise.

I wonder if emacs has this command too, it sounds useful.

If you can find the elisp function to give me the number of lines in a file, I could write it.
EDIT: nvm that, got one. I'll edit the code into this post in a moment.

EDIT2:

Code: Select all

(defun buffer-lines ()
  (count-lines 1 (buffer-size)))

(defun goto-percent (n)
  (interactive "N")
  (goto-line (round (* (/ (buffer-lines) 100.0) n))))

(global-set-key "\C-xp" 'goto-percent)

Instead of %, it uses C-x p. Give it a count to start with, and it should work.

[The_pantless_hero]

How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.

And this kind of elitist horseshit is why Linux will NEVER compete with Windows as a mainstream, desktop OS.

How is it "elitist horseshit"? If one didn't know about alternative to notepad, one shouldn't bitch about notepad because they didn't bother to learn about the alternatives.

The difference is Notepad, while a limited piece of junk program, is not user unfriendly.

Sort of like earlier, when you were bitching about iTunes and how it was such a bad program but you had to use it to buy from the iTunes store even though there are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the iTunes store that you could also buy from. This seems to be a trend with you.

Grow up. That might allow you to understand abstract concepts.

[Treznor]

You brought up the claim that mucking about in system folders in Windows implies a certain level of knowledge.

After you said a person unfamiliar with the system would be doing it. No one unfamiliar with their computer would even go into those folders, much less be trying to do anything in there.

What I said was that someone trying to learn how to fix a problem is necessarily going to have a learning curve whether they're in Windows or Linux. The tools for fixing Linux are no more esoteric than the tools for fixing Windows, they're just different.

I'm turning it around and pointing out that the same applies to Linux.

Which was relevant to nothing said up until this point.

Other than everything.

How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.

And this kind of elitist horseshit is why Linux will NEVER compete with Windows as a mainstream, desktop OS.

This kind of elitist horseshit is why the average user will NEVER try to fix their own computer, because they're either not willing or able to learn the tools necessary to fix the problem. This isn't a Linux problem, this is a mindset. There's nothing particularly elitist about modern Linux distributions. It was probably true ten years ago, but it hasn't been true in a while. Pretty much every Linux support forum I visit is eager to help newcomers learn the ropes, but not when it's accompanied by the declaration that Linux is inferior to _________ OS. That's when the bitchslapping begins.

That's what's happening here.

[The_pantless_hero]

What I said was that someone trying to learn how to fix a problem is necessarily going to have a learning curve whether they're in Windows or Linux. The tools for fixing Linux are no more esoteric than the tools for fixing Windows, they're just different.

Except that is wholly irrelevant to being first introduced to the system where a program like Vi is the implied default program for text editing.

This kind of elitist horseshit is why the average user will NEVER try to fix their own computer, because they're either not willing or able to learn the tools necessary to fix the problem. This isn't a Linux problem, this is a mindset.

You seem to be unable to understand abstract concepts like Dakini does. THAT IS NOT RELEVANT. You keep yelling that, but what the other guy was saying was that vi was the assumed default program, ie the one exposed to new users. If vi is the first thing you are trying to use on Linux in this day and age, you are not going to keep using Linux. That does not encourage good word of mouth or return use. And your elitist bullshit does not encourage people to start or keep using the system.

There's nothing particularly elitist about modern Linux distributions.

Not the distros, just the holier-than-thou fanboys.

[Dakini]

How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.

And this kind of elitist horseshit is why Linux will NEVER compete with Windows as a mainstream, desktop OS.

How is it "elitist horseshit"? If one didn't know about alternative to notepad, one shouldn't bitch about notepad because they didn't bother to learn about the alternatives.

The difference is Notepad, while a limited piece of junk program, is not user unfriendly.

How is that a difference? Nano, the default editor in Ubuntu is very user friendly. It might work on the command line, but you've got all the commands you need displayed at the bottom.

Sort of like earlier, when you were bitching about iTunes and how it was such a bad program but you had to use it to buy from the iTunes store even though there are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the iTunes store that you could also buy from. This seems to be a trend with you.

Grow up. That might allow you to understand abstract concepts.

I think I'm plenty grown up and I understand abstract concepts just fine. I'm also grown up enough to realize that if I don't like something, I can find an alternative instead of just bitching about it.

[Cannot think of a name]

fanboys.

You keep bandying this word about, I think you doth protest too much.

Seriously, you are the most bent out of shape person I've ever seen about what other people chose to use for their computers. Fucking get over it. Take some of your own advice-

Grow up.

It's a fucking computer. Quit being a fucking spazz.

[Treznor]

What I said was that someone trying to learn how to fix a problem is necessarily going to have a learning curve whether they're in Windows or Linux. The tools for fixing Linux are no more esoteric than the tools for fixing Windows, they're just different.

Except that is wholly irrelevant to being first introduced to the system where a program like Vi is the implied default program for text editing.

Which is why there's gedit, nano, kate, mousepad and a host of other tools. Vi is no longer necessarily the default any longer, it's the shorthand experience techs use when communicating to each other. When I browse the support forums, the instructions for newbies I most often see is "type gksudo gedit..."

It's really not that difficult to find alternatives to vi if you're going after advanced troubleshooting. The support is there; you're just hung up on the fact that so many veterans actually like vi.

This kind of elitist horseshit is why the average user will NEVER try to fix their own computer, because they're either not willing or able to learn the tools necessary to fix the problem. This isn't a Linux problem, this is a mindset.

You seem to be unable to understand abstract concepts like Dakini does. THAT IS NOT RELEVANT. You keep yelling that, but what the other guy was saying was that vi was the assumed default program, ie the one exposed to new users. If vi is the first thing you are trying to use on Linux in this day and age, you are not going to keep using Linux. That does not encourage good word of mouth or return use. And your elitist bullshit does not encourage people to start or keep using the system.

Okay, fine. You don't like vi and you think it'll confuse new users. Which is why I point out they don't have to use it. When people ask for help on forums and are given vi commands that confuse them, they're usually pretty vocal about being confused. At which point the veterans will supply them with alternative options. If that's elitist, then I'll gladly bear that label.

There's nothing particularly elitist about modern Linux distributions.

Not the distros, just the holier-than-thou fanboys.

Not to mention, the holier-than-thou critics.

[The_pantless_hero]

What I said was that someone trying to learn how to fix a problem is necessarily going to have a learning curve whether they're in Windows or Linux. The tools for fixing Linux are no more esoteric than the tools for fixing Windows, they're just different.

Except that is wholly irrelevant to being first introduced to the system where a program like Vi is the implied default program for text editing.

Which is why there's gedit, nano, kate, mousepad and a host of other tools. Vi is no longer necessarily the default any longer, it's the shorthand experience techs use when communicating to each other. When I browse the support forums, the instructions for newbies I most often see is "type gksudo gedit..."

Then you are missing the point if you don't realize that 'solution' is the same exact problem.

[Dakini]

What I said was that someone trying to learn how to fix a problem is necessarily going to have a learning curve whether they're in Windows or Linux. The tools for fixing Linux are no more esoteric than the tools for fixing Windows, they're just different.

Except that is wholly irrelevant to being first introduced to the system where a program like Vi is the implied default program for text editing.

Which is why there's gedit, nano, kate, mousepad and a host of other tools. Vi is no longer necessarily the default any longer, it's the shorthand experience techs use when communicating to each other. When I browse the support forums, the instructions for newbies I most often see is "type gksudo gedit..."

Then you are missing the point if you don't realize that 'solution' is the same exact problem.

How so?

problem: vi is unfriendly and has a steep learning curve. vi is the default text editor for linux.

solution: vi is not the default text editor for some distros, users in support forums will offer helpful advice in using different editors which are more user friendly.

[Tekania]

Computers should be easy to fix.

Wrongo... Computers should be able to last longer periods between needing to be fixed... If your computer has so many issues that it needs quick and easy tools to fix its problems in frequent periods, then the computer (or OS) was built wrong in the first place...

The reason why there are so many "Wizards" and easy to use apps to fix windows problems, is because Windows breaks down so frequently it needs them, otherwise the users are going out to techs to get their systems fixes all the time (which they do anyway, the "average" user, cannot navigate the registry, and won't even try)...

[Cannot think of a name]

How so?

problem: vi is unfriendly and has a steep learning curve. vi is the default text editor for linux.

solution: vi is not the default text editor for some distros, users in support forums will offer helpful advice in using different editors which are more user friendly.

You have to understand his mindset, here. For him, there is only one proper tool for everyone to use, and that's the one he's using. Anyone using any other tool is a 'fanboy' who is either too stupid to realize they should be using the tool he is, being duped, tricked, or suckling at the teat of whoever is the figurehead of that tool. Clearly. No one can have different needs, abilities, willingness to invest time and money into something, comfort levels, etc. No no, if they're using something he's deemed 'inferior' it is a plot of either intellect or corporate conspiracy.

Now, this might be confusing, because he so often applies the moniker, "Fanboy." And you might think, "Wouldn't a fanboy be someone who tirelessly flaps on about their chosen preference and lashes out at other's choices to irrational degrees...doesn't that sound more like..." Well, yes, it does. But sometimes when people are in the eye of their own personal hurricane, they cannot see their own storm.

[Treznor]

Computers should be easy to fix.

Wrongo... Computers should be able to last longer periods between needing to be fixed... If your computer has so many issues that it needs quick and easy tools to fix its problems in frequent periods, then the computer (or OS) was built wrong in the first place...

The reason why there are so many "Wizards" and easy to use apps to fix windows problems, is because Windows breaks down so frequently it needs them, otherwise the users are going out to techs to get their systems fixes all the time (which they do anyway, the "average" user, cannot navigate the registry, and won't even try)...

The "average" user can't navigate the registry, and shouldn't try. My gods, the trouble they can create by changing things in there....

[Tekania]

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Funny, wonder why MS made as an optional installation type for Server 2k8 then...

Console interface, for someone who KNOWS what they are doing is quicker. It also allows systems to run with less overhead in certain configurations. MS even allows you to install Server 2k8 with no graphical interface for this reason (Guess MS is taking a step backwards too, in your oh so not informed opinion)...

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Funny, wonder why MS made as an optional installation type for Server 2k8 then...

Console interface, for someone who KNOWS what they are doing is quicker. It also allows systems to run with less overhead in certain configurations. MS even allows you to install Server 2k8 with no graphical interface for this reason (Guess MS is taking a step backwards too, in your oh so not informed opinion)...

Server 2k8 isn't a consumer OS, not really a valid comparison.

[Dakini]

How so?

problem: vi is unfriendly and has a steep learning curve. vi is the default text editor for linux.

solution: vi is not the default text editor for some distros, users in support forums will offer helpful advice in using different editors which are more user friendly.

You have to understand his mindset, here. For him, there is only one proper tool for everyone to use, and that's the one he's using. Anyone using any other tool is a 'fanboy' who is either too stupid to realize they should be using the tool he is, being duped, tricked, or suckling at the teat of whoever is the figurehead of that tool. Clearly. No one can have different needs, abilities, willingness to invest time and money into something, comfort levels, etc. No no, if they're using something he's deemed 'inferior' it is a plot of either intellect or corporate conspiracy.

Now, this might be confusing, because he so often applies the moniker, "Fanboy." And you might think, "Wouldn't a fanboy be someone who tirelessly flaps on about their chosen preference and lashes out at other's choices to irrational degrees...doesn't that sound more like..." Well, yes, it does. But sometimes when people are in the eye of their own personal hurricane, they cannot see their own storm.

Yeah, I sort of called him on it a while ago after he called me one. Then I looked over a couple of his posts and noticed I wasn't the first.

...doesn't mean I'm not going to try to point out that his argument is nonsensical in hopes that he'll maybe understand this.

[Disposablepuppetland]

Computers should be easy to fix.

Wrongo... Computers should be able to last longer periods between needing to be fixed... If your computer has so many issues that it needs quick and easy tools to fix its problems in frequent periods, then the computer (or OS) was built wrong in the first place...

The reason why there are so many "Wizards" and easy to use apps to fix windows problems, is because Windows breaks down so frequently it needs them, otherwise the users are going out to techs to get their systems fixes all the time (which they do anyway, the "average" user, cannot navigate the registry, and won't even try)...

What do you mean "wrongo"?? Are you actually suggesting computers should be hard to fix?

There's no reason a computer can't be reliable AND easy to fix.

[The_pantless_hero]

Computers should be easy to fix.

Wrongo... Computers should be able to last longer periods between needing to be fixed... If your computer has so many issues that it needs quick and easy tools to fix its problems in frequent periods, then the computer (or OS) was built wrong in the first place...

The reason why there are so many "Wizards" and easy to use apps to fix windows problems, is because Windows breaks down so frequently it needs them, otherwise the users are going out to techs to get their systems fixes all the time (which they do anyway, the "average" user, cannot navigate the registry, and won't even try)...

Are you honestly arguing that computers shouldn't be easy to fix?

[The_pantless_hero]

You have to understand his mindset, here. For him, there is only one proper tool for everyone to use, and that's the one he's using. Anyone using any other tool is a 'fanboy' who is either too stupid to realize they should be using the tool he is, being duped, tricked, or suckling at the teat of whoever is the figurehead of that tool. Clearly. No one can have different needs, abilities, willingness to invest time and money into something, comfort levels, etc. No no, if they're using something he's deemed 'inferior' it is a plot of either intellect or corporate conspiracy.

Since you people are obviously too dense to understand what I was getting at, the point was that telling a person to use console commands to change away from using a console based text editor as a default doesn't fix the inherent problem of CONSOLES NOT BEING FRIENDLY TO CASUAL USERS.

Now, this might be confusing, because he so often applies the moniker, "Fanboy." And you might think, "Wouldn't a fanboy be someone who tirelessly flaps on about their chosen preference and lashes out at other's choices to irrational degrees...doesn't that sound more like..." Well, yes, it does. But sometimes when people are in the eye of their own personal hurricane, they cannot see their own storm.

I have YET to see anyone point out what I am a fanboy of yet they keep accusing me of it, even after asking them to. Repeatedly.
So what exactly am I a fanboy of? User friendly program? If only everyone was!

[Tekania]

The "average" user can't navigate the registry, and shouldn't try. My gods, the trouble they can create by changing things in there....

Yep, the real scary ones are the ones who have figured out how to type "regedit" in the dialogue, and then are later calling someone like me because their system won't even boot into safe-mode anymore.

[Treznor]

Computers should be easy to fix.

Wrongo... Computers should be able to last longer periods between needing to be fixed... If your computer has so many issues that it needs quick and easy tools to fix its problems in frequent periods, then the computer (or OS) was built wrong in the first place...

The reason why there are so many "Wizards" and easy to use apps to fix windows problems, is because Windows breaks down so frequently it needs them, otherwise the users are going out to techs to get their systems fixes all the time (which they do anyway, the "average" user, cannot navigate the registry, and won't even try)...

What do you mean "wrongo"?? Are you actually suggesting computers should be hard to fix?

There's no reason a computer can't be reliable AND easy to fix.

There's an old phrase in many industries that applies here: "quick, easy or cheap. Pick two." Making a computer reliable an user-friendly requires a great deal of careful programming and automation. This usually comes at the cost of complexity, which is why a lot of non-techs seem to regard computers and programming as some sort of arcane wizardry. The more complex a system is, the harder it is to fix. So your best bet is to focus on reliability. Reliable computers that are similarly easy to fix are rarely user-friendly, which has been the focus of operating systems for the past fifteen years or so.

[The Alma Mater]

Since you people are obviously too dense to understand what I was getting at, the point was that telling a person to use console commands to change away from using a console based text editor as a default doesn't fix the inherent problem of CONSOLES NOT BEING FRIENDLY TO CASUAL USERS.

True. That however does not make the system "poorly designed" if the console, after learning how to use it, will outperform an alternative interface.

It does however indeed mean the casual user is better of using another, less efficient but more friendly, interface. Fortunately all major linux distributions are based around such a thing.

[Hydesland]

-snip-

To be fair, he is nothing compared to many linux users. I'm amazed at some of the vitriol that comes out of their mouth, they treat anyone who buys microsoft products as sheep/tools who just 'do what the corporations tell them', they have this silly little bit of romanticism, as if they were fighting a battle against 'the man' by using linux (or even sometimes macs). My guess is that TPH is just reacting to this with his own vitriol, as if to give a taste of their own medicine.