Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

[The Tofu Islands]

So you never tried mousepad, Kate or vim? They're just as straightforward. I use Kate all the time when I'm not on the command line.

Or gedit, which I've often seen recommended in various Ubuntu-related help stuff online, or nano. Not sure if vim belongs on that list though -- modal editing is great when you get used to it but it does have a fair bit of a learning curve for new users.

[The_pantless_hero]

I really hate to have to say this, but if you don't know there are other text editors, you probably shouldn't be trying to fix the problem yourself. And if vi is an "unassailable cliff of a learning curve" with such complex commands as ":save" and ":q" the person in question is probably too stupid to do anything past playing Solitaire (Assuming their can figure out how to open it without drooling on themselves first)... It's the same type of crowd who opened up Word 2k7 and went ape-shit... They move stuff, and suddenly it's an unassailable cliff. Not because its hard to figure out; just the people aren't capable of independent thought...

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

[The Tofu Islands]

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

In a text editor, what about console input is inferior to GUI input? I can't off-hand think of anything. I can think of a plus, which is that it can be run inside screen.

[Treznor]

I really hate to have to say this, but if you don't know there are other text editors, you probably shouldn't be trying to fix the problem yourself. And if vi is an "unassailable cliff of a learning curve" with such complex commands as ":save" and ":q" the person in question is probably too stupid to do anything past playing Solitaire (Assuming their can figure out how to open it without drooling on themselves first)... It's the same type of crowd who opened up Word 2k7 and went ape-shit... They move stuff, and suddenly it's an unassailable cliff. Not because its hard to figure out; just the people aren't capable of independent thought...

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Backward? *snort* Microsoft tried really hard to kill the command line with that argument. Wasn't it with Server 2003 that they acknowledged it was still necessary, that there are functions you simply can't perform from the GUI?

Thank you for playing. Please try again.

[The_pantless_hero]

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

In a text editor, what about console input is inferior to GUI input? I can't off-hand think of anything. I can think of a plus, which is that it can be run inside screen.

Probably the part where the mouse is unusable to make selections.

[The_pantless_hero]

I really hate to have to say this, but if you don't know there are other text editors, you probably shouldn't be trying to fix the problem yourself. And if vi is an "unassailable cliff of a learning curve" with such complex commands as ":save" and ":q" the person in question is probably too stupid to do anything past playing Solitaire (Assuming their can figure out how to open it without drooling on themselves first)... It's the same type of crowd who opened up Word 2k7 and went ape-shit... They move stuff, and suddenly it's an unassailable cliff. Not because its hard to figure out; just the people aren't capable of independent thought...

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Backward? *snort* Microsoft tried really hard to kill the command line with that argument. Wasn't it with Server 2003 that they acknowledged it was still necessary, that there are functions you simply can't perform from the GUI?

Thank you for playing. Please try again.

I will. Perhaps this time you will read the important part as I will put it in big letters for you.

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

[The Tofu Islands]

Probably the part where the mouse is unusable to make selections.

Firstly, various console programs (such as vim) have mouse support. You do know that there are APIs for using the mouse in the console, don't you? And even in the ttys, there's gpm.
Secondly, various console programs (such as vim) have other methods of selecting text (such as visual mode in vim, or copy mode in screen).

Besides, using a keyboard is generally nicer then using a mouse for selections* -- it's not as imprecise and it doesn't require moving hands away from where you type.

*And for pretty much anything else, for that matter.

[Treznor]

I really hate to have to say this, but if you don't know there are other text editors, you probably shouldn't be trying to fix the problem yourself. And if vi is an "unassailable cliff of a learning curve" with such complex commands as ":save" and ":q" the person in question is probably too stupid to do anything past playing Solitaire (Assuming their can figure out how to open it without drooling on themselves first)... It's the same type of crowd who opened up Word 2k7 and went ape-shit... They move stuff, and suddenly it's an unassailable cliff. Not because its hard to figure out; just the people aren't capable of independent thought...

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Backward? *snort* Microsoft tried really hard to kill the command line with that argument. Wasn't it with Server 2003 that they acknowledged it was still necessary, that there are functions you simply can't perform from the GUI?

Thank you for playing. Please try again.

I will. Perhaps this time you will read the important part as I will put it in big letters for you.

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Then you should familiarize yourself with tools that have, in modern distributions, replaced the command line as the primary interface. Your ignorance is not my problem.

Frankly, working from the command line is faster than with a GUI anyway. It's easier to script solutions, more flexible and generally superior. That you disparage it is testament to your own fanboy mindset.

[The Tofu Islands]

I will. Perhaps this time you will read the important part as I will put it in big letters for you.

My problem with Linux evangelicals is they don't realize that a console input as the primary interface is a step BACKWARDS in design. For older users, great, that's what you grew up with, now move into the future.

Y'know, I'm not exactly an "older user". The OS of the first computer I used (Mac OS 9) was pretty-much purely GUI-based. I've only started using primarily console programs relatively recently.

[The_pantless_hero]

Besides, using a keyboard is generally nicer then using a mouse for selections* -- it's not as imprecise and it doesn't require moving hands away from where you type.

I was primarily a FPS gamer - my homekeys are WASD and *the mouse*. But that's beside the point. the point is, how long are the documents you are editing in console without a mouse? Holding the arrow key until I get where I want is neither precise nor fast.

[The_pantless_hero]

Then you should familiarize yourself with tools that have, in modern distributions, replaced the command line as the primary interface. Your ignorance is not my problem.

Frankly, working from the command line is faster than with a GUI anyway. It's easier to script solutions, more flexible and generally superior. That you disparage it is testament to your own fanboy mindset.

Right, I'm a fanboy, and what exactly am I a fanboy of, based on my comments. User friendliness? GUIs? Easy to access interfaces?

[Dakini]

Besides, using a keyboard is generally nicer then using a mouse for selections* -- it's not as imprecise and it doesn't require moving hands away from where you type.

*And for pretty much anything else, for that matter.

Keyboard shortcuts for the win!

[The Tofu Islands]

I was primarily a FPS gamer - my homekeys are WASD and *the mouse*. But that's beside the point. the point is, how long are the documents you are editing in console without a mouse? Holding the arrow key until I get where I want is neither precise nor fast.

Yeah, that's why I use the "search for regex" or "scroll by page" or "jump to tag" commands.

And that's not even mentioning the more arcane ones like "go to next error".

[Dakini]

Besides, using a keyboard is generally nicer then using a mouse for selections* -- it's not as imprecise and it doesn't require moving hands away from where you type.

I was primarily a FPS gamer - my homekeys are WASD and *the mouse*. But that's beside the point. the point is, how long are the documents you are editing in console without a mouse? Holding the arrow key until I get where I want is neither precise nor fast.

That's why there are keyboard shortcuts to get you to particular lines in your document. That's why there are keyboard shortcuts for text searches (if you don't know the line). Hell, that's why there's a button labeled "page down" on most (likely all) keyboards.

[The_pantless_hero]

I was primarily a FPS gamer - my homekeys are WASD and *the mouse*. But that's beside the point. the point is, how long are the documents you are editing in console without a mouse? Holding the arrow key until I get where I want is neither precise nor fast.

Yeah, that's why I use the "search for regex" or "go down by page" or "jump to tag" commands.

Yes, because PgDown really solves my problems. And go to really assumes you know where you are going.
And I use "search for" all the time, when it is relevant: Ctrl+F "whatever i am looking for.

[Disposablepuppetland]

Aaand here we have a common fallacy promoted by Microsoft. The Linux tools to resolve problems are just as straightforward as Windows tools. If you think digging through /etc is any more confusing than digging through regedit, you are sadly mistaken. The difference is that people have been trained to think of Windows as user-friendly, and Linux as not. Current Linux tools are, if anything, more user-friendly than Windows but people believe it isn't because they never actually try it for themselves. Some, when they do, give up because it simply isn't Windows.

Well, of course not. It's Linux system. You wouldn't expect a Chevy engine to be built the same way as a Toyota, would you? An expert in Chevy engines might be better at figuring out a Toyota engine than someone not familiar with any engines, but you're still going to have to adjust to the different environment. Why should troubleshooting Linux be the same as troubleshooting Windows? It's a matter of learning the differences, not giving up because it doesn't conform to your expectations.

You're confusing the tool with the underlying design. I didn't suggest the the registry itself was straightforward. I said the tool 'regedit' was straightforward.

I actually think storing the config as text files is a better design than the registry (although /etc could really do with more consistency), but the tools - notepad and regedit, are much more straightforward than vi.

So you never tried mousepad, Kate or vim? They're just as straightforward. I use Kate all the time when I'm not on the command line.

Yes, I generally use nano when available, and I can use vi if I have to, but then I've been using Linux for years.

For newer users though this is not obvious, as vi is generally assumed to be the default.

[Sarzonia]

I'm an avid Mac person.

I can use PCs without much problem. In fact, I'm on one now. However, my home laptop is a Mac.

[Treznor]

Aaand here we have a common fallacy promoted by Microsoft. The Linux tools to resolve problems are just as straightforward as Windows tools. If you think digging through /etc is any more confusing than digging through regedit, you are sadly mistaken. The difference is that people have been trained to think of Windows as user-friendly, and Linux as not. Current Linux tools are, if anything, more user-friendly than Windows but people believe it isn't because they never actually try it for themselves. Some, when they do, give up because it simply isn't Windows.

Well, of course not. It's Linux system. You wouldn't expect a Chevy engine to be built the same way as a Toyota, would you? An expert in Chevy engines might be better at figuring out a Toyota engine than someone not familiar with any engines, but you're still going to have to adjust to the different environment. Why should troubleshooting Linux be the same as troubleshooting Windows? It's a matter of learning the differences, not giving up because it doesn't conform to your expectations.

You're confusing the tool with the underlying design. I didn't suggest the the registry itself was straightforward. I said the tool 'regedit' was straightforward.

I actually think storing the config as text files is a better design than the registry (although /etc could really do with more consistency), but the tools - notepad and regedit, are much more straightforward than vi.

So you never tried mousepad, Kate or vim? They're just as straightforward. I use Kate all the time when I'm not on the command line.

Yes, I generally use nano when available, and I can use vi if I have to, but then I've been using Linux for years.

For newer users though this is not obvious, as vi is generally assumed to be the default.

Then that's a problem with familiarity. Someone not familiar with the system they're trying to fiddle with needs to learn. Notepad isn't that obvious for Windows users who first try to solve things, because a lot of programs (C:\WINDOWS\system32\etc\drivers\hosts for example) don't pop up automatically in it. Plus, for BIG configuration files Notepad is insufficient, and you need the expanded functionality of Wordpad.

The tools are there. The fact that Linux simply doesn't work like Windows is not the problem. The problem is that users expect Linux to work like Windows, and don't bother to familiarize themselves with the tools readily available.

[The Tofu Islands]

Yes, because PgDown really solves my problems. And go to really assumes you know where you are going.
And I use "search for" all the time, when it is relevant: Ctrl+F "whatever i am looking for.

It's not clear to me what your saying at the moment. By-page scrolling solves the "holding down the by-line movement keys for ages" problem -- it's about as good as dragging a scrollbar around. And vim, for example, has a '%' command that allows you to move to an area of the document quickly; typing "50%" will jump to half-way through the buffer. That's probably about as good as clicking on part of the scrollbar.

Yes, I generally use nano when available, and I can use vi if I have to, but then I've been using Linux for years.

For newer users though this is not obvious, as vi is generally assumed to be the default.

If you don't like vi, you could always learn ed. That's fairly standard....

As for vi being assumed the default, where? Most of the online help pages I've seen (mainly for Ubuntu) say to use gedit or something similar.

[The_pantless_hero]

Then that's a problem with familiarity. Someone not familiar with the system they're trying to fiddle with needs to learn. Notepad isn't that obvious for Windows users who first try to solve things, because a lot of programs (C:\WINDOWS\system32\etc\drivers\hosts for example) don't pop up automatically in it. Plus, for BIG configuration files Notepad is insufficient, and you need the expanded functionality of Wordpad.

The tools are there. The fact that Linux simply doesn't work like Windows is not the problem. The problem is that users expect Linux to work like Windows, and don't bother to familiarize themselves with the tools readily available.

If you are dabbling in system32, then you are familiar with the system enough to know how to open files in the program you want, at the very least.

[The_pantless_hero]

Yes, because PgDown really solves my problems. And go to really assumes you know where you are going.
And I use "search for" all the time, when it is relevant: Ctrl+F "whatever i am looking for.

It's not clear to me what your saying at the moment. By-page scrolling solves the "holding down the by-line movement keys for ages" problem -- it's about as good as dragging a scrollbar around. And vim, for example, has a '%' command that allows you to move to an area of the document quickly; typing "50%" will jump to half-way through the buffer. That's probably about as good as clicking on part of the scrollbar.

It's not.

As for vi being assumed the default, where? Most of the online help pages I've seen (mainly for Ubuntu) say to use gedit or something similar.

That's what I use. It doesn't make vi any less ubiquitous or irritating.

[The Tofu Islands]

It's not.

a) Which one? By-page scrolling compared to dragging the scrollbar or jumping compared to clicking on the scrollbar (or both)?
b) Why not? Just saying "It isn't" is really unhelpful.

[Treznor]

Then that's a problem with familiarity. Someone not familiar with the system they're trying to fiddle with needs to learn. Notepad isn't that obvious for Windows users who first try to solve things, because a lot of programs (C:\WINDOWS\system32\etc\drivers\hosts for example) don't pop up automatically in it. Plus, for BIG configuration files Notepad is insufficient, and you need the expanded functionality of Wordpad.

The tools are there. The fact that Linux simply doesn't work like Windows is not the problem. The problem is that users expect Linux to work like Windows, and don't bother to familiarize themselves with the tools readily available.

If you are dabbling in system32, then you are familiar with the system enough to know how to open files in the program you want, at the very least.

If you're dabbling in /etc or other places that a command line might take you, then you're familiar with the system enough to know how to open files in the program you want, at the very least.

Unless, of course, you're bitching because it just isn't Windows.

[The_pantless_hero]

If you're dabbling in /etc or other places that a command line might take you, then you're familiar with the system enough to know how to open files in the program you want, at the very least.

Unless, of course, you're bitching because it just isn't Windows.

Can you at least stay on one subject? Really. Fanboys have some serious transference problems. What does be able to traverse to certain folders have to do with the implied default text editor on a system? Some one stated vi was such an item and it is not easy to use for people unfamiliar to Linux or console work. Then you went off on "well if people unfamiliar with the system who somehow found their way into the system32 folder, they wouldn't know how to access files because they wouldn't be familiar enough with the system!" I pointed out how that was a fucking absurd argument and you went and brought up something even MORE unrelated. You keep going out of your way to make ridiculous strawmen in order to tout the superiority of Linux while failing to acknowledge any possible shortcoming thereof.

[Treznor]

If you're dabbling in /etc or other places that a command line might take you, then you're familiar with the system enough to know how to open files in the program you want, at the very least.

Unless, of course, you're bitching because it just isn't Windows.

Can you at least stay on one subject? Really. Fanboys have some serious transference problems. What does be able to traverse to certain folders have to do with the implied default text editor on a system? Some one stated vi was such an item and it is not easy to use for people unfamiliar to Linux or console work. Then you went off on "well if people unfamiliar with the system who somehow found their way into the system32 folder, they wouldn't know how to access files because they wouldn't be familiar enough with the system!" I pointed out how that was a fucking absurd argument and you went and brought up something even MORE unrelated. You keep going out of your way to make ridiculous strawmen in order to tout the superiority of Linux while failing to acknowledge any possible shortcoming thereof.

You brought up the claim that mucking about in system folders in Windows implies a certain level of knowledge. I'm turning it around and pointing out that the same applies to Linux. How is this a strawman argument? If you don't like vi, then use gedit or mousepad or any number of easily discovered text editors. If you don't know about them, then don't bitch because you didn't familiarize yourself with them. That's really not my problem.