Apple, Microsoft, or Linux?

[Treznor]

Why is it that when some decry the cost of a Mac, they fail to include the cost of operation. I've never needed a new sound card, virus subscription, etc. I don't think that makes the costs of Mac v PC equal, but it makes them much closer than the figures some like to bandy about. Especially over time. I've not dropped a dime on my Mac in four years, and it's still doing everything I need and want it to do.

1) No one needs a new soundcard, they were always nonrequired upgrades. And didn't they stop being popular 10 years ago?

Connecting a soundcard to the system rather than running off the motherboard reduces the load on the CPU, particularly if you get a good soundcard. Audiophiles and gamers are always interested in better performance.

1a) Never mind the fact that to upgrade a Mac you have to buy overpriced Apple parts AND Apple discourages users from upgrading their Macs.

Granted.

2) I don't need a virus subscription either. There are at least 3 free antiviruses. And if you arn't an idiot, you can get away with using the free scanners for the big names (they don't charge you to scan, only for protection and removal of less than ohfuckinggodtheworldisdoomed threats, depending on the company)

And no, it doesn't make their costs anywhere closer.

You may not need a subscription but you certainly need the software and the overhead it creates on your system resources. Not to mention that additional time necessary to maintain the machine. Yes, you could make the classic user mistake of just letting the program run automatically without ever checking the logs or manually launching a deep scan, but then you put yourself at higher risk of infection and deserve whatever you get.

And no, it's not all about market share making Microsoft a bigger target. It's also about architecture making Microsoft a bigger target as well. Why hunt for snipe when a pheasant is so much easier to hit?

[The_pantless_hero]

So it is pretty much zoomed editing. Meh, sounds nifty, but I find column editing works fine.

[The_pantless_hero]

You may not need a subscription but you certainly need the software and the overhead it creates on your system resources.

Two out of three of the free antiviruses use less background resources than all the crap Apple Windows software installs on my machine - that have nothing to do with the software I want!
Avira is especially resource unintensive for an antivirus.

And no, it's not all about market share making Microsoft a bigger target. It's also about architecture making Microsoft a bigger target as well. Why hunt for snipe when a pheasant is so much easier to hit?

Last I recall, at one of the black hat hacker conferences, some one hacked a Mac in some absurdly short amount of time.

[Dakini]

So it is pretty much zoomed editing. Meh, sounds nifty, but I find column editing works fine.

Well, part of the advantage of this is mostly doable with keyboard shortcuts so once you've got the hang of them it's pretty fast.

[Treznor]

You may not need a subscription but you certainly need the software and the overhead it creates on your system resources.

Two out of three of the free antiviruses use less background resources than all the crap Apple Windows software installs on my machine - that have nothing to do with the software I want!
Avira is especially resource unintensive for an antivirus.

I'd have to see sources on that. I'm not familiar enough with Apple's standard build to speak intelligently here. I do know that the Windows box I maintain for my girlfriend has more overhead and requires more maintenance than my Linux boxes.

And no, it's not all about market share making Microsoft a bigger target. It's also about architecture making Microsoft a bigger target as well. Why hunt for snipe when a pheasant is so much easier to hit?

Last I recall, at one of the black hat hacker conferences, some one hacked a Mac in some absurdly short amount of time.

Give me physical access to any machine and it's mine. There's no such thing as perfect security. But demonstrating one security flaw in a Mac doesn't change the fact that Windows typically sports dozens of flaws at any given time. How many flaws did the black hat hacker identify in the Mac versus a standard Windows box?

[BrightonBurg]

Amiga 500

[Dakini]

You may not need a subscription but you certainly need the software and the overhead it creates on your system resources.

Two out of three of the free antiviruses use less background resources than all the crap Apple Windows software installs on my machine - that have nothing to do with the software I want!

Then why have it? I have a Mac and I don't even use half the software that came with it, I tend to opt for open source alternatives (e.g. Cog or VLC instead of iTunes).

And no, it's not all about market share making Microsoft a bigger target. It's also about architecture making Microsoft a bigger target as well. Why hunt for snipe when a pheasant is so much easier to hit?

Last I recall, at one of the black hat hacker conferences, some one hacked a Mac in some absurdly short amount of time.

Actually, all the machines withstood the first day. It was the second day where the Mac and Windows fell. The second day was the day after a vulnerability in OS X was just announced and the hackers were allowed to direct users to do certain otherwise innocent tasks which resulted in access. The first day they had to try to get in from the outside without any user help and failed on all operating systems tested. I'm not sure if they managed to crack the linux machine, it might have taken until the third day when there was direct access or something, I can't remember.

[The_pantless_hero]

You may not need a subscription but you certainly need the software and the overhead it creates on your system resources.

Two out of three of the free antiviruses use less background resources than all the crap Apple Windows software installs on my machine - that have nothing to do with the software I want!
Avira is especially resource unintensive for an antivirus.

I'd have to see sources on that. I'm not familiar enough with Apple's standard build to speak intelligently here. I do know that the Windows box I maintain for my girlfriend has more overhead and requires more maintenance than my Linux boxes.

Install iTunes on Windows and you get: Quicktime (runs in background, plus the updater), iTunes service (runs in background), Bonjour (background), some other Apple printer/sharing service, iPod service, and a hidden updater service that you can't even see on the process list but does run in the background.

Give me physical access to any machine and it's mine. There's no such thing as perfect security. But demonstrating one security flaw in a Mac doesn't change the fact that Windows typically sports dozens of flaws at any given time. How many flaws did the black hat hacker identify in the Mac versus a standard Windows box?

How is that relevant?

[Treznor]

Give me physical access to any machine and it's mine. There's no such thing as perfect security. But demonstrating one security flaw in a Mac doesn't change the fact that Windows typically sports dozens of flaws at any given time. How many flaws did the black hat hacker identify in the Mac versus a standard Windows box?

How is that relevant?

Apple has a better history of identifying and addressing security flaws than Microsoft. Microsoft's track record has been...spotty, at best. New flaws are being created or discovered all the time, granted but the overall security of a system is graded by a few considerations: how many ways can a hacker force access? How quickly are those ways identified and addressed? Once access is obtained, what can the hacker do from there? Microsoft has always been rated low on all three issues. If Apple maintained the Unix file structure and partitioning from BSD, then simply gaining access is far less of an issue for a Mac users than for Windows users. Something about partitioning adds to the difficulty of taking control of a system.

[Dakini]

Install iTunes on Windows and you get: Quicktime (runs in background, plus the updater), iTunes service (runs in background), Bonjour (background), some other Apple printer/sharing service, iPod service, and a hidden updater service that you can't even see on the process list but does run in the background.

You can turn all that stuff off and set your startup programs to keep those from opening. This is more of a windows flaw than an OS X flaw it seems.

Give me physical access to any machine and it's mine. There's no such thing as perfect security. But demonstrating one security flaw in a Mac doesn't change the fact that Windows typically sports dozens of flaws at any given time. How many flaws did the black hat hacker identify in the Mac versus a standard Windows box?

How is that relevant?

It's relevant because you pointed to some vague example at a cracking competition of a mac being cracked quickly. You failed to note that it withheld the first day and wasn't cracked until the second day when the participants had the ability to get a computer user to follow links and all this (which in fairness you might not have known). It also exploited a problem with Safari, not with OS X itself (just because OS X comes with Safari doesn't mean all mac users use it). There are many vulnerabilities in windows and windows machines tend to make larger targets because they have a larger marketshare, so if you figure out how to crack a windows machine, you can crack many more machines than you can if you figure out how to crack into a mac.

The moral is, however, that stupid computer users are going to run unsafe machines.

[The_pantless_hero]

Install iTunes on Windows and you get: Quicktime (runs in background, plus the updater), iTunes service (runs in background), Bonjour (background), some other Apple printer/sharing service, iPod service, and a hidden updater service that you can't even see on the process list but does run in the background.

You can turn all that stuff off and set your startup programs to keep those from opening. This is more of a windows flaw than an OS X flaw it seems.

But you can't stop them from installing. It is now a Windows flaw, it is an Apple flaw because that is Apple software, they purposefully include and forcefully install a half dozen unnecessary programs that your average person isn't going to know are there or to get rid of. And don't get me started about how Apple's Safari market share got a nice 1000% increase in market share the day they released it for Windows because their updater service had "download and install Safari" checked by default.

[Dakini]

Install iTunes on Windows and you get: Quicktime (runs in background, plus the updater), iTunes service (runs in background), Bonjour (background), some other Apple printer/sharing service, iPod service, and a hidden updater service that you can't even see on the process list but does run in the background.

You can turn all that stuff off and set your startup programs to keep those from opening. This is more of a windows flaw than an OS X flaw it seems.

But you can't stop them from installing.

It's not that difficult to uninstall things from a windows machine, just go to Add/Remove programs.

It is now a Windows flaw, it is an Apple flaw because that is Apple software, they purposefully include and forcefully install a half dozen unnecessary programs that your average person isn't going to know are there or to get rid of.

My computer asks me and requests my admin password when I install things. I know windows machines don't all do this unless you set it up specifically... but still. It's not a flaw in the software if the average user doesn't care enough to figure out that there are boxes to check/uncheck or that it's simple to uninstall things. I've had to clean up my parents' machine because nobody disabled the "open at startup" for the multiple mp3 players my sisters have (by the way, they apparently all have several programs that install and will start up automatically if you don't disable them, it's not just iPods).

And don't get me started about how Apple's Safari market share got a nice 1000% increase in market share the day they released it for Windows because their updater service had "download and install Safari" checked by default.

So it's Apple's fault that you don't make sure to unckeck boxes for things you don't want?
Maybe I'm weird because I had a 60BG hard drive for the longest time so I made sure that I only installed the minimum, but I personally go into advanced settings on installs and make sure that I don't have lots of junk checked that I don't want and I would regularly purge unnecessary programs from my windows machine (with the small hard drive).

note: I would also say it isn't the fault of the software if a user fails to check necessary boxes. I've done this before too, like when installing Cygwin, you don't necessarily want a full install because that takes forever, but if you don't go through and check certain things, you might not be able to do things that you want to do with the program.

[The_pantless_hero]

It's not that difficult to uninstall things from a windows machine, just go to Add/Remove programs.

My computer asks me and requests my admin password when I install things.

You realize of course that things installed as part of the entire install process bypass that right?

It's not a flaw in the software if the average user doesn't care enough to figure out that there are boxes to check/uncheck

Except when there arn't.

I've had to clean up my parents' machine because nobody disabled the "open at startup" for the multiple mp3 players my sisters have (by the way, they apparently all have several programs that install and will start up automatically if you don't disable them, it's not just iPods).

Quicktime readds itself to the "boot at startup" list every time you boot it if you remove it manually, and the program doesn't offer an option to remove it from start up. iTunes also will readds itunes service and ipod service to the boot list upon booting them if removed manually, AND the program doesn't offer a way to turn those off. Bonjour and the other service can only be uninstalled as they have no program.

So it's Apple's fault that you don't make sure to unckeck boxes for things you don't want?

Are you a moron? Really? I was making a point about Apple software.

[Dakini]

Quicktime readds itself to the "boot at startup" list every time you boot it if you remove it manually, and the program doesn't offer an option to remove it from start up. iTunes also will readds itunes service and ipod service to the boot list upon booting them if removed manually, AND the program doesn't offer a way to turn those off. Bonjour and the other service can only be uninstalled as they have no program.

You're aware that windows has its own startup list, right? You don't have to go into a program to keep it from starting up when you start your machine, you can change this somewhere in the system preferences or something like this (I forget where it is exactly, but it does exist and I've done it before). I've removed quicktime from my parents startup list in addition to most of the iTunes and Zune junk and it has stayed off (e.g. it was there the time before last when I cleaned up their machine, but not last time).

So it's Apple's fault that you don't make sure to unckeck boxes for things you don't want?

Are you a moron? Really? I was making a point about Apple software.

I haven't installed iTunes on a windows machine. Usually there's some sort of advanced install option when you go to install something on a windows machine, if there isn't when you install iTunes then that's kinda silly, but again, it's not like Apple is the only company that does this, so your point about Apple software is kinda silly.

And there's no need to call me a moron.

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

Itunes for PC is famously horrible on its own. It's glitchy and crashes often. It doesn't help that it comes with all the awful bloatware mentioned above, which CAN'T be uninstalled. The only way to get rid of quicktime that I know is to install the quicktime alternative which is a third party piece of software. And can someone explain to me, why the hell does quicktime exist if itunes now comes with a video player built in :/

[UNIverseVERSE]

Itunes for PC is famously horrible on its own. It's glitchy and crashes often. It doesn't help that it comes with all the awful bloatware mentioned above, which CAN'T be uninstalled. The only way to get rid of quicktime that I know is to install the quicktime alternative which is a third party piece of software. And can someone explain to me, why the hell does quicktime exist if itunes now comes with a video player built in :/

While I am not Apple, I suspect that Quicktime is the video player built into iTunes.

[The_pantless_hero]

Quicktime readds itself to the "boot at startup" list every time you boot it if you remove it manually, and the program doesn't offer an option to remove it from start up. iTunes also will readds itunes service and ipod service to the boot list upon booting them if removed manually, AND the program doesn't offer a way to turn those off. Bonjour and the other service can only be uninstalled as they have no program.

You're aware that windows has its own startup list, right? You don't have to go into a program to keep it from starting up when you start your machine, you can change this somewhere in the system preferences or something like this (I forget where it is exactly, but it does exist and I've done it before). I've removed quicktime from my parents startup list in addition to most of the iTunes and Zune junk and it has stayed off (e.g. it was there the time before last when I cleaned up their machine, but not last time).

I bolded the relevant parts for you since you can't seem to read all by yourself

I haven't installed iTunes on a windows machine. Usually there's some sort of advanced install option when you go to install something on a windows machine, if there isn't when you install iTunes then that's kinda silly, but again, it's not like Apple is the only company that does this, so your point about Apple software is kinda silly.

Actually most companies stopped doing shit like this years ago. Apple gets away with it because they are Apple.

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

Symantec is another company that puts garbage on your computer which is near impossible to remove.

[Dakini]

Quicktime readds itself to the "boot at startup" list every time you boot it if you remove it manually, and the program doesn't offer an option to remove it from start up. iTunes also will readds itunes service and ipod service to the boot list upon booting them if removed manually, AND the program doesn't offer a way to turn those off. Bonjour and the other service can only be uninstalled as they have no program.

You're aware that windows has its own startup list, right? You don't have to go into a program to keep it from starting up when you start your machine, you can change this somewhere in the system preferences or something like this (I forget where it is exactly, but it does exist and I've done it before). I've removed quicktime from my parents startup list in addition to most of the iTunes and Zune junk and it has stayed off (e.g. it was there the time before last when I cleaned up their machine, but not last time).

I bolded the relevant parts for you since you can't seem to read all by yourself

I bolded the relevant parts for you since you can't seem to read all by yourself. I have successfully done this before, I don't know what your problem is.

I haven't installed iTunes on a windows machine. Usually there's some sort of advanced install option when you go to install something on a windows machine, if there isn't when you install iTunes then that's kinda silly, but again, it's not like Apple is the only company that does this, so your point about Apple software is kinda silly.

Actually most companies stopped doing shit like this years ago. Apple gets away with it because they are Apple.

I'm sure that's why I had to remove multiple Zune-related programs from my parents' machine as well? Apple is definitely not the only company that does this.

[The_pantless_hero]

I bolded the relevant parts for you since you can't seem to read all by yourself. I have successfully done this before, I don't know what your problem is.

Did you ask your parents how often they booted iTunes and Quicktime since you last checked it?

I'm sure that's why I had to remove multiple Zune-related programs from my parents' machine as well? Apple is definitely not the only company that does this.

I don't know what Zune does, but iTunes is a standalone program so there is no reason to include iPod crap, much less Bonjour which is an Apple specific sharing service.

[Gauntleted Fist]

I'm sure that's why I had to remove multiple Zune-related programs from my parents' machine as well? Apple is definitely not the only company that does this.

What 'Zune-related' programs?

[Helertia]

True Story:
The reason Mac is supposedly virus proof is because no one bothers to invent viruses for a Mac, as no one uses them!
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060513
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20021126

[Birminghamia]

Linux is better than both! Proud Ubuntu user!

[Treznor]

True Story:
The reason Mac is supposedly virus proof is because no one bothers to invent viruses for a Mac, as no one uses them!

Not true. A hacker who came up with a reliable way to add Apple machines to a botnet would have a boundless resource at their disposal, since most Mac users don't bother with antivirus software. Plus, bragging rights are a huge motivator. The first one with a Mac botnet be deified in hacker lore.

Yes, Apple doesn't have the overwhelming market share that Microsoft enjoys. That's not the only reason there aren't any active trojans or viruses for the Mac in the network. The same goes with Linux, particularly since Linux runs at least half the world's servers.

[Dakini]

I bolded the relevant parts for you since you can't seem to read all by yourself. I have successfully done this before, I don't know what your problem is.

Did you ask your parents how often they booted iTunes and Quicktime since you last checked it?

No, I just removed the shit that was making it take forever to boot.

Question: If you hate Apple software, why do you a) use them or b) use products that require them? You don't need to own an iPod, there are tonnes of other digital music players out there.

I'm sure that's why I had to remove multiple Zune-related programs from my parents' machine as well? Apple is definitely not the only company that does this.

I don't know what Zune does, but iTunes is a standalone program so there is no reason to include iPod crap, much less Bonjour which is an Apple specific sharing service.[/quote]
If iTunes requires QuickTime to run videos (which is possible) then it isn't a standalone program. iTunes updaters sound like they're something that would be standard for updating the software and in your earlier complaint you stated that Bonjour was removable. So what's your problem exactly?