Was the Galactic Empire a good place to live?

[Der Teutoniker]

Do you remember that this all occurs over the course of like...a week in the movie? Amidala is in Coresaunt for maybe 3 days. Government doesn't just HAPPEN.

By the way, tone it down, this is a thread about some author's stupid totallynotrepublicanrant on why the good capitalist empire was better then the ebil big gubment democracy not why Phantom Menace was a bad movie.

Ok, so the fact that all communications to, and from Naboo have ceased doesn't mean someone should check it out? There should be evidence of the Royal Space Yacht being shot at by the blockade. Two Jedi should be trustworthy enough to hold some kind of appeal.

Basically, the movie is utter, and complete rubbish. Except that the second-worst, and third worst characters die (Maul, and Jinn), there are no redeeming parts. This does come into play when examining the "deeper" issues in the plot of the movie (I put deeper in parentheses because it is clear upon inspection that there is no actual deeper meaning to movie, George just thought of some crazy shit to put into a movie to justify lightsabers, and stuck the Star Wars name on it.) If you do not want to hear a critique of one of the worst movies ever made, do not enter in to a discussion about said movie.

[Der Teutoniker]

It depends upon whether or not you value freedom.

I imagine for many people, not all that much changed in the day-to-day living on Coruscant. Imagine you work at Space*Wal*Mart. What the fuck difference does it make to you as you drive to work everyday? Maybe the Empire taxes a bit heavier, as you mentioned, you'd likely see reduced crime. That should be worth it.

Then again, my national motto is "Ordnung ist Freiheit" so maybe you don't want to ask me for my "unbiased" opinion on this one!

[Tahar Joblis]

I'm pretty sure "acts of genocide on your own governed peoples" falls under the category "bad place to live," as does "fascist military dictatorship." The weirdest thing is that Anakin / Vader grew up as a slave on Tatooine in episode I, and in episode VI we see good ol' Jabba still has slaves and is still a big boss-man on Tatooine. It's like the corruption of the Republic, which the article spends time on, never got cleaned up. You still have Hutt crimelords running shit on the periphery, and things are just like they were before. Even on the homeworld of the Emperor's right-hand hatchetman.

The really funny thing is that the article is from 2002 and is now a little dated. Why bring it to us now? It was written before the final Star Wars movie came out. Let's just say that if you wondered why Lucas chose the title "Chancellor" and why we keep hearing about a "New Order" enforced by "stormtroopers," consider learning about this man. You may have heard about him before.

We may as well ask how life was im Dritten Reich - really bad if you were Jewish, Gypsy, or Alderaanian, maybe not that bad for people who don't belong to an oppressed minority, unless you happen to be a political dissident or fall under random suspicion or the regime comes to a crashing halt after the Allies / Alliance get some military success on their side.

[Jinos]

Do you remember that this all occurs over the course of like...a week in the movie? Amidala is in Coresaunt for maybe 3 days. Government doesn't just HAPPEN.

By the way, tone it down, this is a thread about some author's stupid totallynotrepublicanrant on why the good capitalist empire was better then the ebil big gubment democracy not why Phantom Menace was a bad movie.

Ok, so the fact that all communications to, and from Naboo have ceased doesn't mean someone should check it out? There should be evidence of the Royal Space Yacht being shot at by the blockade. Two Jedi should be trustworthy enough to hold some kind of appeal.

Who cares if the Jedi were trustworthy? They never went before the senate. Who cares if the Royal Space Yacht was shot at? Can you prove the blast marks were from a Trade Federation starship? Maybe. With some forensic analysis. This ain't CSI, that takes TIME.

Again. Governments don't WORK that way. Responses take time. Just look at the 90s Balkans war to see how long it took for the US to get involved in the conflict, even with lots of media coverage.

That should be worth it.

So the lack of right to a trail in case you get labeled a 'traitor to the state' and be executed is worth it?

That sounds a lot like "We should be able to abduct US citizens if it helps us fight the terrorists" kind of speaking.

[AustriaHungaryBohemia]

If the Empire is evil for blowing up Alderaan, then America is evil for nuking Japan.

Yes, I distinctly remember Alderaan leading a years-long brutal war of conquest and being populated by people whose very culture discourages anything but fighting to the death.

Oh, wait...

[Genivaria]

Leia's ship in the opening scene.

So once they manage to kill a bunch of people, and then the rest of the movie they screw up? Clearly, the guys who captured the Tantine all got transferred to a far easier theatre of war afterwards. Still stupid. Take your troops with the most experience fighting Rebels, and put them somewhere else.

Finally, even letting their plans escape in the first place was a stupid move. Even if an escape pod is launched, you should still blow it up.

Yes, that little mistake was pointed out in the Family Guy's parody.

[Der Teutoniker]

Who cares if the Jedi were trustworthy? They never went before the senate. Who cares if the Royal Space Yacht was shot at? Can you prove the blast marks were from a Trade Federation starship? Maybe. With some forensic analysis. This ain't CSI, that takes TIME.

Again. Governments don't WORK that way. Responses take time. Just look at the 90s Balkans war to see how long it took for the US to get involved in the conflict, even with lots of media coverage.

Oh... Are the Balkans represented in the US Senate?

Are you telling me there would be no vid record of Trade Federation ships shooting at le royal yacht? Not reasonable, but we can chalk that up to bad movie-making too.

And about the trustworthyness... let me say this again the senate voted no-confidence against Valorum for his lack of action. The two Jedi told Valorum that they saw the invasion. Clearly the senate was convinced that further action was needed - else they would not have voted to oust him.

Really, the movie is not that deep, it shouldn't be this hard to "figure" out. (Again, citing that there really is nothing to "figure" out because the movie is a bunch of CGI shit crammed into a sci-fi-ish setting.)

[Der Teutoniker]

Yes, I distinctly remember Alderaan leading a years-long brutal war of conquest and being populated by people whose very culture discourages anything but fighting to the death.

Oh, wait...

To be fair Alderaan shot first.

[Red Indus]

unless you happen to be a political dissident or fall under random suspicion or the regime comes to a crashing halt after the Allies / Alliance get some military success on their side.

sounds good. think about it; why not live in a regime gone to a crashing halt?

[Der Teutoniker]

So the lack of right to a trail in case you get labeled a 'traitor to the state' and be executed is worth it?

That sounds a lot like "We should be able to abduct US citizens if it helps us fight the terrorists" kind of speaking.

I never said any such thing, nor made such an assertion.

Gonna keep strawman/trolling/flamebaiting?

[Der Teutoniker]

and in episode VI we see good ol' Jabba still has slaves and is still a big boss-man on Tatooine

Tatooine is outside the standard jurisdiction of the Empire.

I'm sure that Darth Vader had bigger priorities being the second most powerful person in the galaxy than making sure that a fat dude in the desert had a dozen or so slaves.

[Jinos]

Oh... Are the Balkans represented in the US Senate?

There isn't really an example of one state just suddenly invading the other. The civil war isn't an example of that either, since it immediately took off into a war between two factions.

Disputes between two states are handled by courts in America.

So I used the closest example I could think of sheesh.

Are you telling me there would be no vid record of Trade Federation ships shooting at le royal yacht? Not reasonable, but we can chalk that up to bad movie-making too.

It's a yacht not a warship.

And about the trustworthyness... let me say this again the senate voted no-confidence against Valorum for his lack of action. The two Jedi told Valorum that they saw the invasion. Clearly the senate was convinced that further action was needed - else they would not have voted to oust him.

And let me say this again. You can't get a congress to put a resolution through legislature in a few days, especially when they're doing stuff like voting out their old leader for a new one.

The entire senate shelves the Naboo issue to deal with Valorum, and then once they do that Amidala takes off to deal with it her self before the senate can really even DO anything.

[Jinos]

So the lack of right to a trail in case you get labeled a 'traitor to the state' and be executed is worth it?

That sounds a lot like "We should be able to abduct US citizens if it helps us fight the terrorists" kind of speaking.

I never said any such thing, nor made such an assertion.

Gonna keep strawman/trolling/flamebaiting?

You basically said that "less crime" was a worth it to have an evil empire.

What the fuck difference does it make as you drive to work everyday? As you asked?

Well if you get pulled over by an Empire trooper and they suddenly think you've got a bad opinion about the Empire they can throw a sack over your head and use some "enhanced interrogation techniques" on you.

I'm not strawmanning, you're the one who seems to be under the impression that an evil empire isn't oppressive.

[Meridiani Planum]

I don't know about the Empire, but Dooku's confederacy sounds like it should have been given a chance.

[Der Teutoniker]

There isn't really an example of one state just suddenly invading the other. The civil war isn't an example of that either, since it immediately took off into a war between two factions.

Disputes between two states are handled by courts in America.

So I used the closest example I could think of sheesh.

It's a yacht not a warship.

And let me say this again. You can't get a congress to put a resolution through legislature in a few days, especially when they're doing stuff like voting out their old leader for a new one.

The entire senate shelves the Naboo issue to deal with Valorum, and then once they do that Amidala takes off to deal with it her self before the senate can really even DO anything.

1: You picked a bad one than. US interventionism in the Balkans =/= Galactic Republic defending the interests of Naboo.

Not even close.

2: So? No yacht has cameras? I'm sorry, what you suggested was that only military vessels were equipped with cameras. (Nevermind that we see, on camera, from the cockpit, as the Trade Federation ships are shooting the R2 droids trying to repair the shield generator.)

3: They can't do much in a couple of days. They ousted Valorum in a couple of days. That's a hell of a lot to do. Imagine modern America. The governor of Hawaii comes before the senate and declares that GM is blockading, and invading Hawaii. There is no video evidence. Obama says that we aren't going to do anything yet. Before ousting him (or simultaneously) they senate would send someone/thing to investigate. Ousting the Supreme Chancellor immediately makes so much less sense than voting for a resolution to "send some guys to check it out". There is way less commitment there. Then again, this is still the argument that movie is utter rubbish. You really should stop trying to make sense of the movie. Watch the review I linked you to, and then stick to real (OT) Star Wars. It'll save you a lot of time, a lot of headaches, and a lot of horrible arguing positions.

[Jinos]

Dude fuck it. If you want to argue the movie. Go find a fucking Star Wars forum to go FAN WANK ON.

God do I HATE fanwankers.

[Der Teutoniker]

You basically said that "less crime" was a worth it to have an evil empire.

What the fuck difference does it make as you drive to work everyday? As you asked?

Well if you get pulled over by an Empire trooper and they suddenly think you've got a bad opinion about the Empire they can throw a sack over your head and use some "enhanced interrogation techniques" on you.

I'm not strawmanning, you're the one who seems to be under the impression that an evil empire isn't oppressive.

Ah. I see. Here is where you make shit up, and pretend that I said that shit.

Congrats, it is a terrible, but really old form of arguing. At least your sticking to the classics, if not good arguments.

I suggested that the rule of the Empire, for most average people on Coruscant would actually bring very little change. This "average Joe" would see little difference in his day-to-day life under the Imperial rule. One noticeable side effect would likely be less crime.

Now let me point out where you are making shit up. See where I said less crime is desirable? Good. Ok, still following along? Here comes the really hard part: Do you see where I said that any reduction of crime is worth absolutely any societal cost? Go ahead, take you time, I'll wait while you look it over.

Ok, your back now? So you see that I didn't say that at all, and when you said I said that, you now realize that I didn't, and that you made it up out of no where? Good then we can drop it.

[Der Teutoniker]

Dude fuck it. If you want to argue the movie. Go find a fucking Star Wars forum to go FAN WANK ON.

God do I HATE fanwankers.

Also people who make arguments that attempt to be consistent with the film that you have absolutely no counter for?

Your arguments are weak, even when disregarding that they support the nonsensical nature of the film.

[San Angeles Prime]

Wow Weekly Standard.....Wow. can't say I'm suprised that something like that comes from a republican rag....

a couple of things:

The republic lasted a thousand years before being torn apart in a civil war in which the seceding side was essentially a bunch of corrupt corporation states who wanted the power to exploit and subjugate their niegbors (and the lead civilization in that alliance was still in a tiff that the group who maintains order in the republic didn't let them murderously conquer a peaceful neighbor to boost their bottom line). As a comparison to any nation that has ever existed on earth, that sounds pretty damn stable, and being that the sole organization in the republic that kept the peace was a very small jedi order of hundreds or maybe a few thousand shows that it was generally a place that was good enough to live in as entire systems obviously weren't trying to secede or declare war on each other very often if at all.

On the other hand the empire lasted around 20 years, and had to maintain millions of troopers and thousands of heavily armed starships to preserve order through violence and intimidation (which obviously didn't work). They didn't build 2 death stars because the various systems were happy, it was to ransom their planets existence in return for loyalty. Basic rule, If you feel you have to do shit like that to keep control it is because your government is NOT providing a good place to live and as a result JUST ABOUT EVERYONE is waiting for or actively trying to cause your downfall.

[Imperium Nova Roma]

It didn't seem that bad. All we saw was how The Empire treated rebels, which of course, was by blowing up an entire planet and hunting them across The Galaxy(ies?).

I guess if you didn't like Sith or not having the chance of becoming Emperor, then you had to deal with it.

Of course, with the huge ass parties at the end of Episode VI, it makes me wonder.

[GreaterPacificNations]

The galactic republic had all but ceased to function. A federalised super state on that scale, with so many micro-reprasentatives, simply cannot function whilst at the same time respecting sovreignty. Either members of the galactic republic submit to it's inefficient will like citizens in a democracy, or confederacy was in order.

The Empire I don't rightly support, however when it comes to a choice between the empire and a band of violent theocratic royalist rebels- I choose the empire. The problem with RotJ is it tries to sell the rebellion succeeding as some kind of happy ending for the galaxy. Think now, if the oppressed falungong religious movement and the oppressed Chinese Democtratic movement joined forces and destroyed Beijing and all of the soldiers and politicians in it, do you think the rest of China would cheer and uniformly accept their rule? Fuck no. There would be a civil war.

The immediate result of destroying the ruling cabinet of the empire would have been galatic-wide balkanization and warfare. Fuck that.

You know who I sympathise with the most in the saga? The trade federation and separatists. They were a bunch of sincere confederates, browncoats, who whilst admittedly being manipulated by the sith, were genuinely in it to free themselves from the bureaucracy of the republic, and enhance their freedom to live and trade as they pleased. They fought with droids, rather than squandering young separatist lives, and fought simply fo independence. Had they have suceeded, then the Galaxy could have continued on in peace in the context of a galactic confederacy- which could allow essential co-operation without infringing on individual member sovereignty or getting bogged down in galatic legislature.

[Meridiani Planum]

God do I HATE fanwankers.

No one gives a flying Ewok.

[Meridiani Planum]

You know who I sympathise with the most in the saga? The trade federation and separatists. They were a bunch of sincere confederates, browncoats, who whilst admittedly being manipulated by the sith, were genuinely in it to free themselves from the bureaucracy of the republic, and enhance their freedom to live and trade as they pleased. They fought with droids, rather than squandering young separatist lives, and fought simply fo independence. Had they have suceeded, then the Galaxy could have continued on in peace in the context of a galactic confederacy- which could allow essential co-operation without infringing on individual member sovereignty or getting bogged down in galatic legislature.

This^

[The Corparation]

Empire totally beats rebels. The government is organized, efficient and since I'm human I'm a first class citizen.

[Der Teutoniker]

Of course, with the huge ass parties at the end of Episode VI, it makes me wonder.

Added to the films 20 years after their release, and in situations that didn't make sense.

Tatooine, for example, would have had relatively little stake. The Empire had only a small (mostly non-existent) presence on Tatooine. Or take Coruscant for example. Simply because the Imperial fleet took a beating (though most of the fleet from the Battle of Endor survived, and even then, it only represented only a very small portion of the overall fleet) and the Second Death Star was destroyed, and the Emperor was killed, does not mean that the Empire itself dissolved. The Empire would still be well-active on Coruscant, and that party probably resulted in millions of deaths (along with it making no sense.) Further, the party on Tibannapolis also makes no sense. Lando Calrissian cut a deal with Vader that had, at least at that point, kept the Empire out of it's business.

In short, you should disregard the parties. They make no sense whatsoever in the grand theme of the plot (like everything George made after he finished Jedi... the first time.)