Was the Galactic Empire a good place to live?

[Offenheim]

Haha, The Weekly Standard really ran this article? Don't they have any sense of irony?

Best line from this:

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.

I'm sure Chile would agree that Pinochet was like Palpatine. They might take issue with "relatively benign" though.

Then you have some very convoluted lines where Last (who claims to not using the Expanded Universe) says that Solo was an imperial pilot originally, and "suspects" that's where his "captain" rank comes from, which since Fett calls Solo "Captain Solo" we're supposed to believe that the Empire has manners. Then, Last suspects Leia of lying when she says that Alderaan has no weapons, though his skepticism doesn't extend to any Imperials.

Besides which, the Imperial Empire was terribly bad at its military tactics. First, it uses walkers, machines which are technological nightmares when you have advanced hover technology. Second, despite being led to Yavin IV, it lets the Rebels come attack it, rather than just blowing up everything (for more idiot mistakes, Cracked has a list of "7 Classic Star Wars Characters Who Totally Dropped the Ball.") Third, despite having a military force made entirely of clones from an elite soldier, it clearly invested no training in them, meaning they can't hit a single thing three meters in front of them.

Finally, the most laughable part of this is the ending. Last is justifying the existence of the Empire saying that essentially without the Emperor in place, the whole structure will collapse into dictatorial rule by Imperial governors. Except, that means that we have to accept as true this section:

In Episode IV, after Grand Moff Tarkin announces that the Imperial Senate has been abolished, he's asked how the Emperor can possibly hope to keep control of the galaxy. "The regional governors now have direct control over territories," he says. "Fear will keep the local systems in line."

So essentially, local rule relies on a bunch of caudillos, much like the Porfiriato in Mexico under Porfirio Diaz. So even without the Rebels, the Emperor's death was always going to cause an outbreak of civil war.

It's a bad argument to make that the Empire are the good guys.

[Olthar]

And just because there is an active rebellion, that means that the Empire is evil? How?

As for it's leaders being members of the rebellion, destroying a planet hardly seems like the appropriate response of a reasonable government, since there's a fair chance a majority are law abiding citizens.

If the Empire is evil for blowing up Alderaan, then America is evil for nuking Japan.

Maybe you should also read the link in the OP before deciding to debate. That's covered in there.


And? Is ruling with fear evil? Is keeping the population in check to prevent crime, rebels, and other disruptive elements such a terrible thing?

Dissolving the legislative body is an act to impose rules upon galactic systems while giving them no forms of redress or means to represent themselves to their leaders. Basically each system had its own little dictator who reported only to military higher ups.

Like everything was so grand before hand? In the first movie, Naboo got invaded and forcefully taken over, and the only thing the Senate could agree on was starting an investigation. The Republic had gotten bloated and horribly inefficient. Really, things only got better when the Empire took over and got rid of that cancer.

[Genivaria]

The Xenophobia mostly ended during the Fel Empire. Women and Non-Humans were both allowed to serve in the military.

[Putria]

Yes, it's true that the existence of the Alliance doesn't automatically mean the Empire is oppressive, but there's usually a reason for large amounts of people to put their lives at stake to take down a regime. We also see the Empire murder billions of people by destroying Alderaan as a demonstration, which hardly speak well for them being nice to everyone (Yeah, it might have been part of the rebellion, but that's hardly justification to kill everyone there, is it?).

I suppose you probably can't directly assume the Empire is oppressive from the movie (Except for those people in planets who might be rebelling), but you also can't assume the Empire was a particularly good place to live in from them either.

Alderaan had been thumbing its nose at the Empire for years.

[Kubra]

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.

Is this nigga srs

[Putria]

Haha, The Weekly Standard really ran this article? Don't they have any sense of irony?

Third, despite having a military force made entirely of clones from an elite soldier, it clearly invested no training in them, meaning they can't hit a single thing three meters in front of them.

They actually were misfiring on purpose because every time the main characters were fighting Stormtroopers, the plan was to let them escape. The Tantive IV proved that Stormtroopers were unstoppable and fanatical.

[Offenheim]

Haha, The Weekly Standard really ran this article? Don't they have any sense of irony?

Third, despite having a military force made entirely of clones from an elite soldier, it clearly invested no training in them, meaning they can't hit a single thing three meters in front of them.

They actually were misfiring on purpose because every time the main characters were fighting Stormtroopers, the plan was to let them escape. The Tantive IV proved that Stormtroopers were unstoppable and fanatical.

The what?

EDIT: Also, really, the plan was to let Han and Leia shut down the shield generator (stupidly placed on a moon rather than inside the Death Star) even though it meant that the Death Star was vulnerable to the same weakness that blew up the last one. Also, don't forget: all those workers who died.

[Genivaria]

They actually were misfiring on purpose because every time the main characters were fighting Stormtroopers, the plan was to let them escape. The Tantive IV proved that Stormtroopers were unstoppable and fanatical.

The what?

Leia's ship in the opening scene.

[Aethrys]

As for it's leaders being members of the rebellion, destroying a planet hardly seems like the appropriate response of a reasonable government, since there's a fair chance a majority are law abiding citizens.

If the Empire is evil for blowing up Alderaan, then America is evil for nuking Japan./quote]

That's not a particularly good comparison. The empire destroying Alderaan would be like the US nuking New York, just on a larger scale. The Japanese were a hostile sovereign state, and besides, they were repeatedly warned and given ample opportunity to surrender.

The Empire was going to great lengths to keep their doomsday weapon a secret, before suddenly unveiling it by destroying one of their own populated planets. What's worse, is they intentionally chose a lush garden world for their demonstration rather than Tatooine, which they believed housed the bulk of the military forces arrayed against them, and being a desert world, likely had a much smaller population.

[Offenheim]

The what?

Leia's ship in the opening scene.

So once they manage to kill a bunch of people, and then the rest of the movie they screw up? Clearly, the guys who captured the Tantine all got transferred to a far easier theatre of war afterwards. Still stupid. Take your troops with the most experience fighting Rebels, and put them somewhere else.

Finally, even letting their plans escape in the first place was a stupid move. Even if an escape pod is launched, you should still blow it up.

[JJ Place]

It brought stability to a Galaxy of turmoil and it developed technologies that benefited the Galactic Economy.

The Empire did have an entire Galaxy worth of resources to develop technology on. Technology was developed on blood; not quite a sustainability production method, nor that much of an accomplishment all considered.

Non-Humans were traitors during the Clone Wars, except Bothans.

More scapegoats of Palpatine's plan; remember that Star Wars only grants a window into the actual participation. All of the species weren't particularly inclined against the Republic in the Clone Wars, Palpatine only makes the situation out to this to build his credibility and bolster his position in leadership. Palpatine was a complete a-hole; to give the Emperor his dues, he knew quite a few tricks to governance, particularly those of psychotic dictatorial governance.

[Putria]

It brought stability to a Galaxy of turmoil and it developed technologies that benefited the Galactic Economy.

The Empire did have an entire Galaxy worth of resources to develop technology on. Technology was developed on blood; not quite a sustainability production method, nor that much of an accomplishment all considered.

Non-Humans were traitors during the Clone Wars, except Bothans.

More scapegoats of Palpatine's plan; remember that Star Wars only grants a window into the actual participation. All of the species weren't particularly inclined against the Republic in the Clone Wars, Palpatine only makes the situation out to this to build his credibility and bolster his position in leadership. Palpatine was a complete a-hole; to give the Emperor his dues, he knew quite a few tricks to governance, particularly those of psychotic dictatorial governance.

I'll admit, the Empire was indeed violent, but they DID rely on Aliens somewhat. For example, their spy on Tatooine in the first movie? He certaintly was not Human.
Blood doesn't make a very good building matieral...

[Futurephilosostan]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?page=1

This article convinced me that the Empire was a good place to live in, and much better for the whole of the galaxy than the Rebellion or Republic. For the purposes of this discussion, EU material is not included.

NSG, do you believe the Empire was a good place to live, or not?

Excluding the EU, - as we see in first episodes, Republic tries to have representative government including all planets in say. We also know that it has worked at least for thousand years of peace (so much peace, that they don't even have an army).
Empire will use fear to keep local systems in check and huge military to shoot down anyone who objects.

Yes, the second choice may have better order (in some cases even stability). But it is not a choice that I would prefer in any way.

[Futurephilosostan]

As for it's leaders being members of the rebellion, destroying a planet hardly seems like the appropriate response of a reasonable government, since there's a fair chance a majority are law abiding citizens.

To expand on this: Baghdad (in 2003) - such a place of terrorist and evil supporters - nuke it?
Pyongyang - definitely harboring evil regime - nuke it?

Is destroying few bad guys with huge collateral damage a reasonable option?

[Jinos]

It became clear to me by the end of page one, this site must have some kind of conservative slant to let this obvious bashing of "Big government" in on it.

The entire article is littered with unsupported statements and fallacies.

-At one point, the author quotes two individual opinions and uses them to automatically dismiss the Senate as totally worthless. And I am not using hyperbole. See any parallels with the situation in the US?

-The author glosses over the time of events in The Phantom Menace. He states the Trade Federation invades Naboo, while it DOES, he goes on to imply the Galactic Senate stands by and watches this doing nothing. Which isn't true, they are completely unaware of this, as far as they know, the Trade Federation is simply imposing trade sanctions. They send two highly valued law enforcers to check it out, who then promptly fall off the grid. Despite the claims in the Senate by Amedalia, she provides no evidence to support her, so what are they suppose to do?

By the time the entire picture is visible to the Senate, the fight is already over.

-The author misconstrues the force. The force is present in EVERYONE, as the author clearly ignores that midichlorians are in every life form. Some just have more of it, and those people are selected to undergo rigorous trials to determine if they have the character to be a Jedi.

-The author uses a single example (he often does this) to state the Jedi are totally ignorant of consul. In fact, the example he uses has nothing to do with his point.

-Author then goes on with some anti-'big gubment' shtick, ending with "Why should the Republic force these separatists to be in the Republic hurr durr!"

Because without the authority to keep the member states in place, the Senate is functionally powerless, since any dissenting member can "opt out" if they don't get their way (Like the seperatists are doing) The Galactic Republic is a nation, not an organization, as the author doesn't seem to realize (likening it to the UN). The key point to democracy is compromise, the the Republic can't keep its provinces apart of the Republic, it ceases to be a nation and the Republic will fracture into new states, which will ultimately breed war between multiple former members.

-What's more, the author has the gall to say the Empire, "has no effect on the citizens" which is total crap, since in the first movie we see Stormtroopers raid Luke's house and kill his family just to find a couple of droids they MIGHT have had, same with a Jawa trawler . We see similar acts of military brutality throughout the film, like the destruction of Alderaan. The author justifies this as "They were traitors". So mr. Author, how is a world where you don't even have the right to a TRIAL benign? You know what countries indescriminantly kill their citizens? North Korea, Libya, Syria ring a bell?

-Author pins the destruction of Alderaan on Leia's PERSONAL actions. How can you justify killing billions for the action of one? Bullshit.

-The author similarly glosses over the fact the the Empire's "meritocracy" is based upon, not just removing the incompetent, but killing them. It's like he ignores the fact Piett is promoted not because of merit, but because his superior officer has just been murdered for making a slip up. (As if Vader doesn't believe in situations where people can't do well and yet still fail).

All in all, this article is just one big lolbertarian wankfest.

[Der Teutoniker]

Be human, work hard, possibly be a stormie, toe the line, sure.

I certainly don't entirely oppose it. Star Destroyers were pretty badass. So was fucking Vader.

[Dagnia]

He presents a pretty good case. As for claims of the empire's racism (at least not in the expanded universe) when do we see racism against non-humans? I remember aliens working very willingly with imperials and the imperials hiring aliens as bounty hunters and for similar things. And why were the Hutts allowed such freedom to build their criminal empires?

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.

Is this nigga srs

Not all Chileans believe Pinochet was a bad guy.

[The USOT]

...

uh 4,5,6 and the expanded universe.

Really? I don't recall seeing any slavery in the movies.

And, as the OP has said twice now, the EU is being disregarded.

Ok to answer your question from an in movie point of view, when Chewbacca is being introduced Han Solo explains the life debt and how he freed chewie from trandoshan slavers, trandoshans working for the empire.

[Der Teutoniker]

They send two highly valued law enforcers to check it out, who then promptly fall off the grid. Despite the claims in the Senate by Amedalia, she provides no evidence to support her, so what are they suppose to do?

Actually, Velorum had the direct word from both Jedi that the invasion was accurate. He couldn't trust the people he sent to mediate the disagreement in the first place? Yeah... ok....

By the way, Plinkett's.

[Der Teutoniker]

Ok to answer your question from an in movie point of view, when Chewbacca is being introduced Han Solo explains the life debt and how he freed chewie from trandoshan slavers, trandoshans working for the empire.

Han never once mentioned Trandoshan slavers in the movie.

I don't think he actually mentioned the life debt at all, actually.

[The USOT]

Ok to answer your question from an in movie point of view, when Chewbacca is being introduced Han Solo explains the life debt and how he freed chewie from trandoshan slavers, trandoshans working for the empire.

Han never once mentioned Trandoshan slavers in the movie.

I don't think he actually mentioned the life debt at all, actually.

Im sure he does... hang on I will try and find a clip


Ok after having searched, it seems you are right. I cannot find the clip... seems weird, I even have the clip perfectly voiced in my head... ah well

Do the games count? Because if so, an entire mission of Galactic battles is dedicated to freeing chewie =p

[Jinos]

They send two highly valued law enforcers to check it out, who then promptly fall off the grid. Despite the claims in the Senate by Amedalia, she provides no evidence to support her, so what are they suppose to do?

Actually, Velorum had the direct word from both Jedi that the invasion was accurate. He couldn't trust the people he sent to mediate the disagreement in the first place? Yeah... ok....

By the way, Plinkett's.

I can imagine the whole senate isn't just going to take the word of two people on it, even if they're Jedi, without some kind of proof. Maybe a holovid? I mean, typically, in the US, for something so grand as interfering in the matters between two countries, there would at least be a hearing, and these two would testify in front of a committee, which would then compile some facts, present a report to congress. And then they'd have some dialogue on what to do. Then there'd be a vote. Then it would take a bit to organize that response.

Mind you, this process is purposefully designed to be sluggish, to prevent our government from making hasty decisions.

Although, I guess Velorum could exercise some power to expedite the process, maybe make an executive order for an immediate response? (I don't know the Senate's powers). I think its kind of stressed that Velorum is almost completely useless, and isn't going to take swift action.

And really, just because the Senate has a weak leader, doesn't provide proof the whole process is impotent. The US has had plenty of 'place holder' presidents who never did a lot in their offices.

[Der Teutoniker]

I can imagine the whole senate isn't just going to take the word of two people on it, even if they're Jedi, without some kind of proof. Maybe a holovid? I mean, typically, in the US, for something so grand as interfering in the matters between two countries, there would at least be a hearing, and these two would testify in front of a committee, which would then compile some facts, present a report to congress. And then they'd have some dialogue on what to do. Then there'd be a vote. Then it would take a bit to organize that response.

Mind you, this process is purposefully designed to be sluggish, to prevent our government from making hasty decisions.

Although, I guess Velorum could exercise some power to expedite the process, maybe make an executive order for an immediate response? (I don't know the Senate's powers). I think its kind of stressed that Velorum is almost completely useless, and isn't going to take swift action.

And really, just because the Senate has a weak leader, doesn't provide proof the whole process is impotent. The US has had plenty of 'place holder' presidents who never did a lot in their offices.

Actually, for a variety of reasons, not having proof of the invasion is bad for Palpatine (who is the initial party trying to instigate the invasion in the first place.) The movie makes no sense. Literally none. Palpatine should have wanted some evidence of invasion, so that Valorum would look like an idiot, and a Vote of No Confidence could be called. As it turned out, that happened anyway, and despite the senate ousting Valorum for not sending help... the senate still doesn't send help, and Amidala's unplanned, half-baked return trip to Naboo (where the blockade is mysteriously no long in place) somehow works out favorably after a child accidentally destroys the flagstone ship in the Trade Federation fleet, and routs the victorious battledroid army that one would expect a trade federation to have, and two Jedi kill a Sith in the universe's largest reactor core thing.

Seriously, that movie was such a piece of shit. Nothing made one fucking lick of sense throughout.

Edit: Fuck you Lucas.

[Jinos]

I can imagine the whole senate isn't just going to take the word of two people on it, even if they're Jedi, without some kind of proof. Maybe a holovid? I mean, typically, in the US, for something so grand as interfering in the matters between two countries, there would at least be a hearing, and these two would testify in front of a committee, which would then compile some facts, present a report to congress. And then they'd have some dialogue on what to do. Then there'd be a vote. Then it would take a bit to organize that response.

Mind you, this process is purposefully designed to be sluggish, to prevent our government from making hasty decisions.

Although, I guess Velorum could exercise some power to expedite the process, maybe make an executive order for an immediate response? (I don't know the Senate's powers). I think its kind of stressed that Velorum is almost completely useless, and isn't going to take swift action.

And really, just because the Senate has a weak leader, doesn't provide proof the whole process is impotent. The US has had plenty of 'place holder' presidents who never did a lot in their offices.

Actually, for a variety of reasons, not having proof of the invasion is bad for Palpatine (who is the initial party trying to instigate the invasion in the first place.) The movie makes no sense. Literally none. Palpatine should have wanted some evidence of invasion, so that Valorum would look like an idiot, and a Vote of No Confidence could be called. As it turned out, that happened anyway, and despite the senate ousting Valorum for not sending help... the senate still doesn't send help, and Amidala's unplanned, half-baked return trip to Naboo (where the blockade is mysteriously no long in place) somehow works out favorably after a child accidentally destroys the flagstone ship in the Trade Federation fleet, and routs the victorious battledroid army that one would expect a trade federation to have, and two Jedi kill a Sith in the universe's largest reactor core thing.

Seriously, that movie was such a piece of shit. Nothing made one fucking lick of sense throughout.

Edit: Fuck you Lucas.

Do you remember that this all occurs over the course of like...a week in the movie? Amidala is in Coresaunt for maybe 3 days. Government doesn't just HAPPEN.

By the way, tone it down, this is a thread about some author's stupid totallynotrepublicanrant on why the good capitalist empire was better then the ebil big gubment democracy not why Phantom Menace was a bad movie.

[Red Indus]

And really, just because the Senate has a weak leader, doesn't provide proof the whole process is impotent. The US has had plenty of 'place holder' presidents who never did a lot in their offices.

U.S. government is pretty impotent except for invading other countries.