Education Thread: Why are the youth disrespectful?

[NERVUN]

So you admit that it is the outside purpose that makes a cave a prison then? A rockslide might make that person feel like the cave is a prison, but it is not because the rockslide wasn't actually indending to imprison that person, correct?

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Sorry, it DOES matter, because either the rockslide is imprisoning you or it isn't, and the difference is in intent. A rockslide cannot think, it wasn't trying to imprison you.

A school is not an attempt to imprision you either.

Unless, of course you want to state that the ACTION is important, at which case that rockside DID imprison you, and so is life.

[ZombieRothbard]

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Sorry, it DOES matter, because either the rockslide is imprisoning you or it isn't, and the difference is in intent. A rockslide cannot think, it wasn't trying to imprison you.

A school is not an attempt to imprision you either.

Unless, of course you want to state that the ACTION is important, at which case that rockside DID imprison you, and so is life.

If a deranged psychopath puts you in a cage in his basement for several years and believes he is saving your life, are you not imprisoned?

[Norstal]

So you admit that it is the outside purpose that makes a cave a prison then? A rockslide might make that person feel like the cave is a prison, but it is not because the rockslide wasn't actually indending to imprison that person, correct?

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Except, it's really your parents who are actually imprisoning you. If they didn't register you for school (or give your a birth certificate really), then you wouldn't be a truant.

So clearly, parentage is imprisonment and no one should ever reproduce. Ever.

[NERVUN]

Doesn't follow. We are after all speaking of a nation of laws, so where is it written that age is against the law?

If I killed a jew in nazi Germany, was it not a killing? It was legal in the camps, so I did not kill a jew correct?

That doesn't follow. No one, IIRC, who has been imprisoned or charged with such a crime has been done so under the laws of Nazi Germany, under the laws of the Federal Republic, the US, international law, yes, but not Nazi Germany.

[ZombieRothbard]

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Except, it's really your parents who are actually imprisoning you. If they didn't register you for school (or give your a birth certificate really), then you wouldn't be a truant.

So clearly, parentage is imprisonment and no one should ever reproduce. Ever.

I am pretty sure even you know how ridiculous this is.

[Norstal]

Except, it's really your parents who are actually imprisoning you. If they didn't register you for school (or give your a birth certificate really), then you wouldn't be a truant.

So clearly, parentage is imprisonment and no one should ever reproduce. Ever.

I am pretty sure even you know how ridiculous this is.

Yeah, this coming from a guy who's saying that schools are prisons...

Are you going to actually argue or what?

[NERVUN]

Sorry, it DOES matter, because either the rockslide is imprisoning you or it isn't, and the difference is in intent. A rockslide cannot think, it wasn't trying to imprison you.

A school is not an attempt to imprision you either.

Unless, of course you want to state that the ACTION is important, at which case that rockside DID imprison you, and so is life.

If a deranged psychopath puts you in a cage in his basement for several years and believes he is saving your life, are you not imprisoned?

His purpose was to hold you, right?

[United Dependencies]

Except, it's really your parents who are actually imprisoning you. If they didn't register you for school (or give your a birth certificate really), then you wouldn't be a truant.

So clearly, parentage is imprisonment and no one should ever reproduce. Ever.

I am pretty sure even you know how ridiculous this is.

I wonder if this counts as irony.

[ZombieRothbard]

If a deranged psychopath puts you in a cage in his basement for several years and believes he is saving your life, are you not imprisoned?

His purpose was to hold you, right?

What if it wasn't? What if he had no idea he was holding you, he just put you in a cage and locked you up. Does that change the condition of imprisonment that the person is experiencing inside the cage?

[ZombieRothbard]

I am pretty sure even you know how ridiculous this is.

Yeah, this coming from a guy who's saying that schools are prisons...

Are you going to actually argue or what?

I personally am not going to argue with you, because it is a waste of time. I am content with arguing with NERVUN and others that make reasoned thought out arguments.

[United Dependencies]

Yeah, this coming from a guy who's saying that schools are prisons...

Are you going to actually argue or what?

I personally am not going to argue with you, because it is a waste of time. I am content with arguing with NERVUN and others that make reasoned thought out arguments.

We're merely taking your statements to their logical conclusion.

[The Floridian Coast]

I'm currently in college and I am getting along pretty well with decent grades and a good track for getting a degree at the end of next spring's semester. I think bureaucracy takes away from a lot of what the experience could be, with administrative rules and regulations restricting some more creative professors from running their class exactly the way they'd like. Things like Turnitin still piss me off (first of all, it's a shitty program, it can't detect citations, so everything you cite is called plagiarism and you have to hope your professor has common sense), with the presumption of guilt towards things like plagiarism. But as for the rest, the college experience allows a lot of freedom. Which makes sense, it isn't compulsory, it's something you pay for, and it's an adult institution.

The problem is, common sense would say that if one has more freedom as an adult, as a minor they should be allowed more freedom progressively as they age, this is not the case. High school is just as much an authoritarian place as a kindergarten. 17 year olds and 7 year olds are treated quite the same, and the school system's rigid structure does in fact mirror a prison in many ways.

Example, dress codes. I remember some joke in a comic or cartoon or something where a Muslim woman in a burqa had her wrist exposed and all of the men who saw it suddenly got ridiculously horny. And yet high schools have so many arbitrary dress code rules that you cannot even figure out how to make sense of it. God forbid a girl wears a top that shows her shoulders (by far the most erotic part of the female body), or someone has their eyebrow pierced. A shitload of people in all my classes have visible tattoos and piercings, and a wide variety of clothes, everything from polos and khakis to trenchcoats and leather boots to suits and ties to people like me who don't give a shit enough to wear anything but the first t-shirt and cargo shorts we grab out of the drawer. I have never spent a college class not being able to pay attention because "Woah, that dude three rows from me has the craziest surface piercing and a shirt that reads Fuckin' A, totally going to phase out for an hour and stare at this guy."

And the whole culture of encouraging students to snitch on one another is ridiculous too. Reporting every violation that doesn't even remotely concern you or for that matter cause harm to anyone is not a practical quality to have in the real world.

The worst thing is the busy work though. The idea that students always need to be given some mundane task to do at any given time.

In my sophomore year of high school I was failing. I dropped out, got a GED, and enrolled at the local community college that next semester without missing a beat. Nothing scares me more than the thought that I almost ended up wasting 2 more years of my life there.

[NERVUN]

His purpose was to hold you, right?

What if it wasn't? What if he had no idea he was holding you, he just put you in a cage and locked you up. Does that change the condition of imprisonment that the person is experiencing inside the cage?

So it IS the person who is imprisoned's feelings that are important correct?

[Norstal]

Yeah, this coming from a guy who's saying that schools are prisons...

Are you going to actually argue or what?

I personally am not going to argue with you, because it is a waste of time. I am content with arguing with NERVUN and others that make reasoned thought out arguments.

You seriously think that an argument based on an appeal to nature is "reasoned"?

And you do know I'm pointing out your flaws right? I'm not actually saying that making kids is unreasonable. I'm saying that parenting is unnatural. So therefore, by YOUR thinking, it's imprisonment.

[ZombieRothbard]

What if it wasn't? What if he had no idea he was holding you, he just put you in a cage and locked you up. Does that change the condition of imprisonment that the person is experiencing inside the cage?

So it IS the person who is imprisoned's feelings that are important correct?

No, imprisonment is a condition of reality, it isn't an emotion. Even if somebody enjoys being imprisoned, like bondage sex games, it doesn't change that they are imprisoned. I haven't found a definition of imprisonment that implies that there must be intent to imprison.

[NERVUN]

So it IS the person who is imprisoned's feelings that are important correct?

No, imprisonment is a condition of reality, it isn't an emotion. Even if somebody enjoys being imprisoned, like bondage sex games, it doesn't change that they are imprisoned. I haven't found a definition of imprisonment that implies that there must be intent to imprison.

Then the cave with the rockslide is a prison, natural or not.

So is life.

[ZombieRothbard]

I'm currently in college and I am getting along pretty well with decent grades and a good track for getting a degree at the end of next spring's semester. I think bureaucracy takes away from a lot of what the experience could be, with administrative rules and regulations restricting some more creative professors from running their class exactly the way they'd like. Things like Turnitin still piss me off (first of all, it's a shitty program, it can't detect citations, so everything you cite is called plagiarism and you have to hope your professor has common sense), with the presumption of guilt towards things like plagiarism. But as for the rest, the college experience allows a lot of freedom. Which makes sense, it isn't compulsory, it's something you pay for, and it's an adult institution.

The problem is, common sense would say that if one has more freedom as an adult, as a minor they should be allowed more freedom progressively as they age, this is not the case. High school is just as much an authoritarian place as a kindergarten. 17 year olds and 7 year olds are treated quite the same, and the school system's rigid structure does in fact mirror a prison in many ways.

Example, dress codes. I remember some joke in a comic or cartoon or something where a Muslim woman in a burqa had her wrist exposed and all of the men who saw it suddenly got ridiculously horny. And yet high schools have so many arbitrary dress code rules that you cannot even figure out how to make sense of it. God forbid a girl wears a top that shows her shoulders (by far the most erotic part of the female body), or someone has their eyebrow pierced. A shitload of people in all my classes have visible tattoos and piercings, and a wide variety of clothes, everything from polos and khakis to trenchcoats and leather boots to suits and ties to people like me who don't give a shit enough to wear anything but the first t-shirt and cargo shorts we grab out of the drawer. I have never spent a college class not being able to pay attention because "Woah, that dude three rows from me has the craziest surface piercing and a shirt that reads Fuckin' A, totally going to phase out for an hour and stare at this guy."

And the whole culture of encouraging students to snitch on one another is ridiculous too. Reporting every violation that doesn't even remotely concern you or for that matter cause harm to anyone is not a practical quality to have in the real world.

The worst thing is the busy work though. The idea that students always need to be given some mundane task to do at any given time.

In my sophomore year of high school I was failing. I dropped out, got a GED, and enrolled at the local community college that next semester without missing a beat. Nothing scares me more than the thought that I almost ended up wasting 2 more years of my life there.

I concur with you here, the uniformity and encouragement to snitch on each other to the authorities is sort of setting the stage for later in life.

[NERVUN]

I'm currently in college and I am getting along pretty well with decent grades and a good track for getting a degree at the end of next spring's semester. I think bureaucracy takes away from a lot of what the experience could be, with administrative rules and regulations restricting some more creative professors from running their class exactly the way they'd like. Things like Turnitin still piss me off (first of all, it's a shitty program, it can't detect citations, so everything you cite is called plagiarism and you have to hope your professor has common sense), with the presumption of guilt towards things like plagiarism. But as for the rest, the college experience allows a lot of freedom. Which makes sense, it isn't compulsory, it's something you pay for, and it's an adult institution.

The problem is, common sense would say that if one has more freedom as an adult, as a minor they should be allowed more freedom progressively as they age, this is not the case. High school is just as much an authoritarian place as a kindergarten. 17 year olds and 7 year olds are treated quite the same, and the school system's rigid structure does in fact mirror a prison in many ways.

Example, dress codes. I remember some joke in a comic or cartoon or something where a Muslim woman in a burqa had her wrist exposed and all of the men who saw it suddenly got ridiculously horny. And yet high schools have so many arbitrary dress code rules that you cannot even figure out how to make sense of it. God forbid a girl wears a top that shows her shoulders (by far the most erotic part of the female body), or someone has their eyebrow pierced. A shitload of people in all my classes have visible tattoos and piercings, and a wide variety of clothes, everything from polos and khakis to trenchcoats and leather boots to suits and ties to people like me who don't give a shit enough to wear anything but the first t-shirt and cargo shorts we grab out of the drawer. I have never spent a college class not being able to pay attention because "Woah, that dude three rows from me has the craziest surface piercing and a shirt that reads Fuckin' A, totally going to phase out for an hour and stare at this guy."

And the whole culture of encouraging students to snitch on one another is ridiculous too. Reporting every violation that doesn't even remotely concern you or for that matter cause harm to anyone is not a practical quality to have in the real world.

The worst thing is the busy work though. The idea that students always need to be given some mundane task to do at any given time.

In my sophomore year of high school I was failing. I dropped out, got a GED, and enrolled at the local community college that next semester without missing a beat. Nothing scares me more than the thought that I almost ended up wasting 2 more years of my life there.

I concur with you here, the uniformity and encouragement to snitch on each other to the authorities is sort of setting the stage for later in life.

It's wrong to report a crime?

Edit: As an aside, I'm afraid that I will be leaving for a bit and might not get back (to this thread) until tomorrow.

[ZombieRothbard]

No, imprisonment is a condition of reality, it isn't an emotion. Even if somebody enjoys being imprisoned, like bondage sex games, it doesn't change that they are imprisoned. I haven't found a definition of imprisonment that implies that there must be intent to imprison.

Then the cave with the rockslide is a prison, natural or not.

So is life.

I disagree though, although I understand your reasoning. I distinguish between power and freedom, when discussing imprisonment we are talking about freedom solely, and not power. If you are on a desert island with no way off it, you are still free, but you do not have the power necessary to leave the island. You cannot will things into existence that don't exist, like a boat to leave the island. You are still free, you just don't have the power to leave the island, hence the island is not a prison.

In a public school however, your freedom is being taken away, which is what causes the condition of imprisonment. You have the power to get up and leave the school, but you are being prevented from using that power by the men who are guarding the exits. That is a loss of freedom, which is different than not possessing power.

[Conserative Morality]

Then the cave with the rockslide is a prison, natural or not.

So is life.

And NSG.

[The Black Forrest]

I concur with you here, the uniformity and encouragement to snitch on each other to the authorities is sort of setting the stage for later in life.

It's wrong to report a crime?

Edit: As an aside, I'm afraid that I will be leaving for a bit and might not get back (to this thread) until tomorrow.

The mob might think so.

[United Dependencies]

In a public school however, your freedom is being taken away, which is what causes the condition of imprisonment. You have the power to get up and leave the school, but you are being prevented from using that power by the men who are guarding the exits. That is a loss of freedom, which is different than not possessing power.

If you had the power to leave then you could leave.

[NERVUN]

Then the cave with the rockslide is a prison, natural or not.

So is life.

I disagree though, although I understand your reasoning. I distinguish between power and freedom, when discussing imprisonment we are talking about freedom solely, and not power. If you are on a desert island with no way off it, you are still free, but you do not have the power necessary to leave the island. You cannot will things into existence that don't exist, like a boat to leave the island. You are still free, you just don't have the power to leave the island, hence the island is not a prison.

In a public school however, your freedom is being taken away, which is what causes the condition of imprisonment. You have the power to get up and leave the school, but you are being prevented from using that power by the men who are guarding the exits. That is a loss of freedom, which is different than not possessing power.

Then is a hospital where you've been sent after an acident a prison?

And NSG.

No we ain't, we're the Hotel California, remember?

[Dazchan]

The problem with defining class disruption, is that often times the teacher makes a bigger disruption than the students.

[citation needed]

A lot of my teachers would basically commit what would otherwise be considered assault and battery in the adult world on students attempting to confiscate their phones, which is their own property.

My dick is my own property too, but I don't go waving it around where it's not welcome.

Also, exactly what about confiscating something that is banned at school constitutes assault and battery, or anything even remotely close to it?

I would rather have a student texting quietly next to me than a thug lunging themself across a room commiting a crime right in front of me to prevent "class disruptions".

So as well as not knowing what the word "prison" means, you also don't know what "thug" and "crime" mean.

[Southern Babylonia]

a note about schools:

While I don't agree with the statement that school is jail, I think it needs changes for students like me to like it. First we need to get rid of useless rules in buses as the chance the bus will have an accident is about 1 out of 1000, and also in the schools (I've heard stories of some schools who wouldn't let students talk in the cafeteria), also give the student council power to do something for once. We should be aloud to talk to each other in class once in a while, and do stuff that has a TINY chance of slightly hurting us

So... you want the ability to cause accidents and disrupt classes?

It sure sounds like I do, but most people wouldn't do it as the very fact that my friends would hate me for doing something like that is punishment enough. You're right and wrong at the same time