Education Thread: Why are the youth disrespectful?

[Conserative Morality]

a note about schools:

While I don't agree with the statement that school is jail, I think it needs changes for students like me to like it. First we need to get rid of useless rules in buses as the chance the bus will have an accident is about 1 out of 1000, and also in the schools (I've heard stories of some schools who wouldn't let students talk in the cafeteria), also give the student council power to do something for once. We should be aloud to talk to each other in class once in a while, and do stuff that has a TINY chance of slightly hurting us

Dunno what school you're going to, I talk with my friends in class all the time.

[Norstal]

Yep. Like life. We should rebel against Mother Nature.

Again, this is a horribly stupid argument. You are equating mandated prison with nature, there is no comparison to be made.

Hold on, did you just called my argument bad by countering it with an appeal to nature?

You earned the "Pot calling the kettle black" achievement!

Since you don't like that one however, what about parentage? Or guardianship. The latter is certainly not natural. Therefore, imprisoning a child with a guardian who's not a parent is bad.

[NERVUN]

In terms of freedoms, students have more. They also have more rights than prisoners.

Untrue. See the study by Epstein I referenced earlier.

In terms of daily life.

Both groups however do not have the same ammounts as (non-convicted) adults. The first because of their criminal convictions that according to law forefits some of those rights and freedoms, and the second due to age, because a very convincing case can be made that children (And teens, with very fuzzy boundries) do not have the ability to fully understand those rights and freedoms.

Really? There's a convincing argument that all children lack such abilities? And does that really matter? Most adults don't understand all of their rights and freedoms either -- that's why we hire financial advisors, lawyers, doctors....

They have the capability to be able to do so, children do not. It's akin to asking a blindman to describe the color of a dress someone is wearing. Other sighted individuals may not have been looking, or might have closed their eyes, but they could actually do so.

[ZombieRothbard]

a note about schools:

While I don't agree with the statement that school is jail, I think it needs changes for students like me to like it. First we need to get rid of useless rules in buses as the chance the bus will have an accident is about 1 out of 1000, and also in the schools (I've heard stories of some schools who wouldn't let students talk in the cafeteria), also give the student council power to do something for once. We should be aloud to talk to each other in class once in a while, and do stuff that has a TINY chance of slightly hurting us

So... you want the ability to cause acidents and disrupt classes?

The problem with defining class disruption, is that often times the teacher makes a bigger disruption than the students. A lot of my teachers would basically commit what would otherwise be considered assault and battery in the adult world on students attempting to confiscate their phones, which is their own property. I would rather have a student texting quietly next to me than a thug lunging themself across a room commiting a crime right in front of me to prevent "class disruptions".

[NERVUN]

Already shown that's not the case, no matter how many times you stick your fingers in your ears.

Can you show me where it has been shown otherwise? All I saw were definitions of prison from alternative sources.

Pointed out the purposes are different, you never bothered to actually address that.

But, here, logic puzzle for ya. Is a cave a prison?

[ZombieRothbard]

They have the capability to be able to do so, children do not. It's akin to asking a blindman to describe the color of a dress someone is wearing. Other sighted individuals may not have been looking, or might have closed their eyes, but they could actually do so.

So the crime children commit to deserve compulsory school is being of a certain age, am I correct?

[NERVUN]

So... you want the ability to cause acidents and disrupt classes?

The problem with defining class disruption, is that often times the teacher makes a bigger disruption than the students. A lot of my teachers would basically commit what would otherwise be considered assault and battery in the adult world on students attempting to confiscate their phones, which is their own property. I would rather have a student texting quietly next to me than a thug lunging themself across a room commiting a crime right in front of me to prevent "class disruptions".

That's nice. Of course, again, the rest of the world disagrees with you.

Not to mention YOU might not find it distracting, other people however.

[ZombieRothbard]

Can you show me where it has been shown otherwise? All I saw were definitions of prison from alternative sources.

Pointed out the purposes are different, you never bothered to actually address that.

But, here, logic puzzle for ya. Is a cave a prison?

If somebody is forcing you to remain in the cave, it is a prison. If you are lost in a cave then you still maintain your freedom, you just lack the POWER necessary to leave the cave. Power and freedom need to be distinguished from each other.

[NERVUN]

They have the capability to be able to do so, children do not. It's akin to asking a blindman to describe the color of a dress someone is wearing. Other sighted individuals may not have been looking, or might have closed their eyes, but they could actually do so.

So the crime children commit to deserve compulsory school is being of a certain age, am I correct?

Is age a crime? Can you point to such a law?

[ZombieRothbard]

The problem with defining class disruption, is that often times the teacher makes a bigger disruption than the students. A lot of my teachers would basically commit what would otherwise be considered assault and battery in the adult world on students attempting to confiscate their phones, which is their own property. I would rather have a student texting quietly next to me than a thug lunging themself across a room commiting a crime right in front of me to prevent "class disruptions".

That's nice. Of course, again, the rest of the world disagrees with you.

Not to mention YOU might not find it distracting, other people however.

The fact that a lot of people disagree with me doesn't really matter. I would say a lot of my peers would have agreed with me if you asked them about it actually, but I guess my peers opinions don't count because they are, after all, a part of this criminal class of youngsters who do not deserve an opinion.

[NERVUN]

Pointed out the purposes are different, you never bothered to actually address that.

But, here, logic puzzle for ya. Is a cave a prison?

If somebody is forcing you to remain in the cave, it is a prison. If you are lost in a cave then you still maintain your freedom, you just lack the POWER necessary to leave the cave. Power and freedom need to be distinguished from each other.

So you admit that it is the outside purpose that makes a cave a prison then? A rockslide might make that person feel like the cave is a prison, but it is not because the rockslide wasn't actually indending to imprison that person, correct?

[NERVUN]

That's nice. Of course, again, the rest of the world disagrees with you.

Not to mention YOU might not find it distracting, other people however.

The fact that a lot of people disagree with me doesn't really matter. I would say a lot of my peers would have agreed with me if you asked them about it actually, but I guess my peers opinions don't count because they are, after all, a part of this criminal class of youngsters who do not deserve an opinion.

Nice attempt to put words in my mouth. It doesn't actually answer the point, but a nice attempt anyway.

[ZombieRothbard]

So the crime children commit to deserve compulsory school is being of a certain age, am I correct?

Is age a crime? Can you point to such a law?

It isn't a written law, but if we are to assume that in our definition of prison that we are attempting to come to an agreement on that a crime is needed to necessitate imprisonment, then age would be said crime. The crime in this case is the reason for the incarceration, what the legal system calls it doesn't quite matter. The legal system cannot change the physical characteristics of an action or a condition of imprisonment or confinement, the condition still exists no matter what you call it, in this case the condition is imprisonment.

[ZombieRothbard]

The fact that a lot of people disagree with me doesn't really matter. I would say a lot of my peers would have agreed with me if you asked them about it actually, but I guess my peers opinions don't count because they are, after all, a part of this criminal class of youngsters who do not deserve an opinion.

Nice attempt to put words in my mouth. It doesn't actually answer the point, but a nice attempt anyway.

Well you are appealing to majority, which I pointed out is a fallacy. Earlier you stated that children do not have the capability to reason, and thus deserve confinement in compulsory schools correct? If I am misrepresenting your position pray tell.

[NERVUN]

Is age a crime? Can you point to such a law?

It isn't a written law, but if we are to assume that in our definition of prison that we are attempting to come to an agreement on that a crime is needed to necessitate imprisonment, then age would be said crime. The crime in this case is the reason for the incarceration, what the legal system calls it doesn't quite matter. The legal system cannot change the physical characteristics of an action or a condition of imprisonment or confinement, the condition still exists no matter what you call it, in this case the condition is imprisonment.

Doesn't follow. We are after all speaking of a nation of laws, so where is it written that age is against the law?

[ZombieRothbard]

If somebody is forcing you to remain in the cave, it is a prison. If you are lost in a cave then you still maintain your freedom, you just lack the POWER necessary to leave the cave. Power and freedom need to be distinguished from each other.

So you admit that it is the outside purpose that makes a cave a prison then? A rockslide might make that person feel like the cave is a prison, but it is not because the rockslide wasn't actually indending to imprison that person, correct?

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

[New Seleno]

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress." -Plato

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."
-Socrates

Youths have been deteriorating since the beginning of time. I'm stunned we haven't completely broken down as a society yet.

[ZombieRothbard]

It isn't a written law, but if we are to assume that in our definition of prison that we are attempting to come to an agreement on that a crime is needed to necessitate imprisonment, then age would be said crime. The crime in this case is the reason for the incarceration, what the legal system calls it doesn't quite matter. The legal system cannot change the physical characteristics of an action or a condition of imprisonment or confinement, the condition still exists no matter what you call it, in this case the condition is imprisonment.

Doesn't follow. We are after all speaking of a nation of laws, so where is it written that age is against the law?

If I killed a jew in nazi Germany, was it not a killing? It was legal in the camps, so I did not kill a jew correct?

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

yeah like the solution is to stop treating them like freaking slaves and give them rights.really rights for the young are nonexistint,they are forced into schools where they are often beat up and terrorised by bullys,they cant get jobs,noone takes them seriesly just because they are smaller then adults.really america REALLY?if you were 9 or 10 would you want to be locked up in young prisons(schools)or would you want you own freaking life.oh and another thing the young cant drive or vote.they should at least be able to drive when they are tall enough.schools should be optional,the young should be aloud to get jobs if they qualify,be able to buy homes and start bussiness's,be aloud to vote and be taken seriesly as human beings.

[NERVUN]

Nice attempt to put words in my mouth. It doesn't actually answer the point, but a nice attempt anyway.

Well you are appealing to majority, which I pointed out is a fallacy. Earlier you stated that children do not have the capability to reason, and thus deserve confinement in compulsory schools correct? If I am misrepresenting your position pray tell.

You are, children have reduced* capability to reason. My 4-year-old reasons, his reasons are rather illogical and lack the ability to do abstraction, but as long as you assume a 4-year-old's viewpoint, he does reason. That does not mean he can reason the way an adult can and therefore should be allowed full control over his own actions.

I did not say that due to such a reduced state that children must be sent to school, just that they do not enjoy the full rights and freedoms of an adult.

*Reduced is not the proper word of course, reduced is a state of having been at, but having lost it, akin to an adult who looses their abilities due to senility. Children are in the process of developing it.

[United Dependencies]

So you admit that it is the outside purpose that makes a cave a prison then? A rockslide might make that person feel like the cave is a prison, but it is not because the rockslide wasn't actually indending to imprison that person, correct?

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Students do not have the power to leave school, therefore school is not a prision. Infact prison is not a prison.

[ZombieRothbard]

Well you are appealing to majority, which I pointed out is a fallacy. Earlier you stated that children do not have the capability to reason, and thus deserve confinement in compulsory schools correct? If I am misrepresenting your position pray tell.

You are, children have reduced* capability to reason. My 4-year-old reasons, his reasons are rather illogical and lack the ability to do abstraction, but as long as you assume a 4-year-old's viewpoint, he does reason. That does not mean he can reason the way an adult can and therefore should be allowed full control over his own actions.

I did not say that due to such a reduced state that children must be sent to school, just that they do not enjoy the full rights and freedoms of an adult.

*Reduced is not the proper word of course, reduced is a state of having been at, but having lost it, akin to an adult who looses their abilities due to senility. Children are in the process of developing it.

I agree with you that children do not have full ability to reason, and they are a "potential self owner" in the future. Until they become a full self owner, they are under a trustee relationship with their mother, who is the rightful "trustee" since the child was birthed from her womb.

The problem with our education system right now is that the government claims partial ownership over your child also, which is where they derive the right to take your child away from you, and to force your child to be in a state of imprisonment for 5-7 hours a day in public schools.

[ZombieRothbard]

No, the intention doesn't matter. The rockslide is an act of nature, the natural world isn't coercing you into confinement, you simply do not have the power to leave the cave. Imprisonment is another human taking away your FREEDOM to leave. Once again, freedom is separate from power.

Students do not have the power to leave school, therefore school is not a prision. Infact prison is not a prison.

Wha...

[United Dependencies]

Students do not have the power to leave school, therefore school is not a prision. Infact prison is not a prison.

Wha...

That's what I got from your statement.

[ZombieRothbard]

Wha...

That's what I got from your statement.

One of us is smoking crack then, and I don't think its me!