Education Thread: Why are the youth disrespectful?

[Ionian Knights]

Correct, but it shouldn't be graded on if you can draw a person right or not... Beauty in the eye of the beholder correct?

on the subject of Society, this is also a major factor... and I have been a strange supporter of killing off shows like Jersey shore and Family guy. They teach my fellow peers things they don't need to know yet... and increase immaturity.

Kill them off? Wrong.

I hate those shows with a passion, but they're just shows. Just escapism.

Yet they focus on teens, much like tobacco companies, and draw kids to watch them, and teach them that acting like an idiot is good...

[Nationstatelandsville]

Kill them off? Wrong.

I hate those shows with a passion, but they're just shows. Just escapism.

Yet they focus on teens, much like tobacco companies, and draw kids to watch them, and teach them that acting like an idiot is good...

Actually, they aren't meant for teenagers at all. So uh... sorry.

[Rejaina]

The parents have a bigger influence over children then peter or snooki

[Ionian Knights]

Yet they focus on teens, much like tobacco companies, and draw kids to watch them, and teach them that acting like an idiot is good...

Actually, they aren't meant for teenagers at all. So uh... sorry.

YET teens are probably the majority of the viewers. I don't mind watching deadliest warrior and shows that are more mature, but what they do should not be repeated, which people do.

[Ionian Knights]

The parents have a bigger influence over children then peter or snooki

So ignorant and uncaring parents = snobs and asses for life? I'll buy that.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Actually, they aren't meant for teenagers at all. So uh... sorry.

YET teens are probably the majority of the viewers. I don't mind watching deadliest warrior and shows that are more mature, but what they do should not be repeated, which people do.

And sixty year olds could watch Blue's Clues. Your point?

And so what if they're repeated? If they weren't, kids would find other ways to be assholes. Welcome to America.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

Not all schools are prisons, a school can be just simply a school, or a school can be both a school and a prison.

Now we are reaching what I like to call a compromise. How about I suggest this approach?

Schools are not prisons. A school is simply a school. While sometimes a school may seem like a prison, especially to those who do not react well to any kind of mandated activity, it is in fact not.

[Ionian Knights]

YET teens are probably the majority of the viewers. I don't mind watching deadliest warrior and shows that are more mature, but what they do should not be repeated, which people do.

And sixty year olds could watch Blue's Clues. Your point?

And so what if they're repeated? If they weren't, kids would find other ways to be assholes. Welcome to America.

America, the now Socialist nation hellbent on making sure you live in ruts...

[Rejaina]

The parents have a bigger influence over children then peter or snooki

So ignorant and uncaring parents = snobs and asses for life? I'll buy that.

not even just that if your parent and you show you don't love your child you'll look for love in others, and since you don;t even know what it is you'll either find it in gangs, sex, or even drugs.

Parents today aren't home enough with there children. And it's a shame.

[Nationstatelandsville]

And sixty year olds could watch Blue's Clues. Your point?

And so what if they're repeated? If they weren't, kids would find other ways to be assholes. Welcome to America.

America, the now Socialist nation hellbent on making sure you live in ruts...

I've just lost all respect for you in one post.

You have a habit of that.

[Ionian Knights]

So ignorant and uncaring parents = snobs and asses for life? I'll buy that.

not even just that if your parent and you show you don't love your child you'll look for love in others, and since you don;t even know what it is you'll either find it in gangs, sex, or even drugs.

Parents today aren't home enough with there children. And it's a shame.

*points out that I have two working parents and rarely see them...* I'm the outlier to that, but anyway I agree.

And example is a kid who vandalized the downtown area, yet his parents basically slapped his wrist...

[Rejaina]

not even just that if your parent and you show you don't love your child you'll look for love in others, and since you don;t even know what it is you'll either find it in gangs, sex, or even drugs.

Parents today aren't home enough with there children. And it's a shame.

*points out that I have two working parents and rarely see them...* I'm the outlier to that, but anyway I agree.

And example is a kid who vandalized the downtown area, yet his parents basically slapped his wrist...

Parents who also don't punish there kid cause the child to feel unworthy, Parents who do nothing but punish cause the child to feel like there not trusted.

[Ionian Knights]

*points out that I have two working parents and rarely see them...* I'm the outlier to that, but anyway I agree.

And example is a kid who vandalized the downtown area, yet his parents basically slapped his wrist...

Parents who also don't punish there kid cause the child to feel unworthy, Parents who do nothing but punish cause the child to feel like there not trusted.

IMO, HE should have got a good grounding for a month....

[The Black Forrest]

Not all schools are prisons, a school can be just simply a school, or a school can be both a school and a prison.

Now we are reaching what I like to call a compromise. How about I suggest this approach?

Schools are not prisons. A school is simply a school. While sometimes a school may seem like a prison, especially to those who do not react well to any kind of mandated activity, it is in fact not.

Oh well said. I was going to bring up issues with authority but couldn't make it not sound snotty.

[Chumblywumbly]

Definitions are great for summing up words, but not addressing the finer details. To surmise what constitutes as a prison from a definition alone is sadly denying yourself the mental capacity with which I am certain you are equipped.

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison.

Your reasoning leaves something to be desired:

Apples are a sweet fruit.
Oranges are a sweet fruit.
Therefore, oranges are apples.

By your cherrypicked definitions, any restrictions on a child constitute a prison. This would mean that a vast swathe of parenting - including for that matter homeschooling - is prison. A level-headed examination of your argument is in order.

[ZombieRothbard]

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

Art is for commies and liberal pussies.

[ZombieRothbard]

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison.

Your reasoning leaves something to be desired:

Apples are a sweet fruit.
Oranges are a sweet fruit.
Therefore, oranges are apples.

By your cherrypicked definitions, any restrictions on a child constitute a prison. This would mean that a vast swathe of parenting - including for that matter homeschooling - is prison. A level-headed examination of your argument is in order.

I also support a childs right to emancipate themselves from their home.

[ZombieRothbard]

Not all schools are prisons, a school can be just simply a school, or a school can be both a school and a prison.

Now we are reaching what I like to call a compromise. How about I suggest this approach?

Schools are not prisons. A school is simply a school. While sometimes a school may seem like a prison, especially to those who do not react well to any kind of mandated activity, it is in fact not.

I appreciate you extending the branch out, but I personally still believe that public education is a prison. A voluntary school is just a school, a compulsory school is both a prison and a school.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

Oh well said. I was going to bring up issues with authority but couldn't make it not sound snotty.

I am trying my best. I was worried I was sounding a bit snotty myself.

I appreciate you extending the branch out, but I personally still believe that public education is a prison. A voluntary school is just a school, a compulsory school is both a prison and a school.

It was worth an effort. This, however, is where I shall bow out with the acknowledgment that we are each entitled to our own opinions, and I can recognize when one is very well set in a certain frame of mind however much I personally view it as being faulty.

EDIT: I boffed that quote.

[Chumblywumbly]

Your reasoning leaves something to be desired:

Apples are a sweet fruit.
Oranges are a sweet fruit.
Therefore, oranges are apples.

By your cherrypicked definitions, any restrictions on a child constitute a prison. This would mean that a vast swathe of parenting - including for that matter homeschooling - is prison. A level-headed examination of your argument is in order.

I also support a childs right to emancipate themselves from their home.

Good for you.

However, your description of school as prison remains, as we philosophers say, proper whack.

[ZombieRothbard]

I also support a childs right to emancipate themselves from their home.

Good for you.

However, your description of school as prison remains, as we philosophers say, proper whack.

Well by all means, wax philosophical all up in this bitch. Id love for you to demonstrate how people being held inside a building without the possibility of leaving is not a condition of confinement and imprisonment with sheer logic and semantics alone.

[ZombieRothbard]

Oh well said. I was going to bring up issues with authority but couldn't make it not sound snotty.

I am trying my best. I was worried I was sounding a bit snotty myself.

I appreciate you extending the branch out, but I personally still believe that public education is a prison. A voluntary school is just a school, a compulsory school is both a prison and a school.

It was worth an effort. This, however, is where I shall bow out with the acknowledgment that we are each entitled to our own opinions, and I can recognize when one is very well set in a certain frame of mind however much I personally view it as being faulty.

EDIT: I boffed that quote.

Indeed

[The Truth and Light]

Your argument would be better like this.

Oranges are a sweet fruit.
Apples are a sweet fruit.
Oranges are like apples.

Because prisons are reserved for those who broke the law and are being punished. But meh.

I will say though that many schools actually are a lot like prisons. Many students in many places are treated exactly like inmates.

But that is not a universal situation.

[Chumblywumbly]

Well by all means, wax philosophical all up in this bitch. Id love for you to demonstrate how people being held inside a building without the possibility of leaving is not a condition of confinement and imprisonment with sheer logic and semantics alone.

To describe a child's schoolday as imprisonment "without the possibility of leaving" is clearly false. It is also highly disingenuous to equate the legally sanctioned, permanent internment of prisoners with the legally mandated, temporary obligation for a child to attend class ( often obligated upon the child's guardian, not the child itself). To do so is hyperbolic.

Now, you might wish to describe a child being obliged to attend class as 'confinement', but many things are confinment without being a prison. Being confined to my bed to recover from a cold is not prison, to name but one example.

EDIT: I would repeat that there's much worthwhile discussion and critique to be had on the subject of (public) education, but it is being lost behind the glare of silly sloganeering.

[NERVUN]

Let's work through the logic. Youth have been rebelious since the dawn of humanity. We know this from numorus complaints on the subject by their elders. The public education system in the US has been around for, oh (Depending on how you define it) 150 years, give or take. So it makes are more logical sense to assume that youth today are disrespectful and rebelious (Which, as you noted, is a subective term and therefore rather hard to actually take seriously as a problem) due to whatever reasons were good back in ancient Greece rather than blaiming something that hasn't been around all that long. Thus you proceed from a false premse.

It is impossible to quantify rebellion, especially when comparing it to times that we have not experienced. My op was directed towards a general feeling or notion among people that the youth are rebellious today, and I offered my reasons why.

But you still proceed from a false premise. Unless you can show that youth are MORE rebelious than in the past, Occam's razor demands then that the simplist cause would be the common one. Since we don't have a period of non-rebellious youth prior to public education, it would be logical to assume whatever was the reason back then would be so now. Again, you start from a false assumption that rebelious youth are caused by public schools.

:palm: You're how old now? Dude, I have been out of public school (As a student) for 14 years, 1 year longer than I was in public school. I'm 32 and I have (baring acidents) at least 30 years ahead of me working AND quite possibly 20 or more years after THAT for living. You'd be hard pressed to say that public school takes up a quarter of a lifetime (In fact, when you look at school hours and that in the US the school year is just 180 days long, it doesn't add up to all that much). So please don't try to complain about how you wasted half of your life in schooling, you ain't lived it yet.

I am 20 years old. If I die tomorrow, I figure I will have spent a majority of my life on this Earth in prison.

Hardly. You assume 13 years for public education, then note that the school year is 180 days long (This means that you are in school less than a half year), which means your total time in "prison" (And not even working out the hours spent outside of school on any given day) would be 6 and a half years of your life. That's not the majority. Most of your actual time has been spent outside of the school, not in it. My heart bleeds peanut butter for you though.

Well, at least you're acknowledging that this is based on your own take of it. Now the rest of the world disagrees with you.

I went on to address this point later, as we both know.

And I state again that the rest of the world disagrees with you and you are incorrect.

Ladies and Gentlemen of NSG, I give you this wonderful quote to show just where the philosphy of this man is headed. You cannot breed if you are not rich.

And this is, of course, from the man who claims to be concerned with the rights and freedoms of all.

How little you understand human nature and how little you have an understanding of history if you really think that free daycare has caused people to breed. How little you understand of the troubles parents go through to raise their children, even with schooling. My only, and I truly mean this, wish for you is that, goven your stated studies and how low of a salary they actually command, any future SO you may have will be very understanding.

You can breed if you are poor, but you have to be willing to keep a parent home with a child.

Do I have to actually explain economics to you and how it would be next to impossible for the majority of the US population to NOT work? Most families have to have two incomes to stay out of the red. So, by your logic, you must be rich to breed.

As for rights and freedoms, freedom should not be conflated with power. You cannot will things to exist that you are incapable of doing, you cannot will property into your possession that you do not own, in other words, you don't have unlimited power. Freedom is the ability to use the power you DO have in as many ways as you wish, minus aggression.

I am not sure what you mean with your last paragraph.

I'm sure you don't. I'm also sure you don't understand that human nature drives us to reproduce, it's an activitiy that most happen to enjoy and that the best birth control out there does not gurantee 100% sucess in preventing pregnancy, so either you have to sterialize the poor or convince humans to stop having sex until their bankbook reaches a certain level. Good luck with that. You also fail to understand history as, again as with your first point, humans had children for a wide range of reasons long before we had public education. My wife and I did not base our desire to have children because of Japan's public education system (Though that system was a factor in our decision to stay in Japan). As a parent, I know a number of other parents (The joys of having children) and no one in my experience has EVER stated that they want children because of public education, nor has that ever been a factor in any way shape or form. You do not understand that children spend a number of years before they start public school and that parents spend quite a large amount of time on the care of their children. Ever wonder why I disapeare in the evenings? My sons are demanding my attention. They dictate the trips my wife and I take, the things that we do, the food we eat, and even the daily schedual. You do not understand just how much time a child takes, even with schooling. And there are no breaks from this.

And because you do not understand this, I hope your SO (Or future SO) understands you.

Pretty sure first graders have mastered that skill. They cannot consentrate the way older children can, but that is why subjects change quickly and there is recess. Even adults cannot give full concentration for more than 2 hrs or so before needing a break.

The subject changing quickly is precisely one of the points John Gatto addresses when he discusses how we teach kids that nothing of value can be accomplished.

And it's a failing of John Gatto's because we do have the science to show that children and adults cannot concentrate for long periods of time effectivly and need breaks.

I have read it, and you avoided the point. If it ain't better or fix the problems, why bother with it? Also, yes, he doesn't source his arguments, which means you cannot check them and thus one must wonder... well, should be be trusted? In his world, everyone who drops out of school becomes sucessful and wonderful. In the real world, MOST who drop out of school fail to.

I doubt Gatto has ever said that dropping out of school magically makes you successful. I have already spent the bulk of this topic talking about why it would be better to homeschool children.

Then you have not read him. His examples are nothing but dropping out is better for children. He does not show the failures. Like I said, he cherrypicks his data.

And you slid past the point, if you are identifying a problem you have to show that your new system will fix it, you admit that it won't.

And again, you avoid the question(s). At what age should a child start working, and doing what?

The age of work is up to the parent and the child.

Not an answer. At what age and doing what should a child start working.

And because it is 'different' just what should my mother have done?

Your mother was victim to unfortunate events, she likely did the best she could with what she had, which is noble.

Not an answer. You want to disassemble the public education system demanding that either a parent be rich enough to afford private schools (My mother, bless her heart was not) or stay at home to teach, which would have ended up with us losing the house and starving. So, again, in such difficulties, what SHOULD have my mother done?

Actually I DO disagree with it and I explained why. So you had a bad time at school, so do others, other have a great time. Guess what, that's life. There will always be times when you aren't enjoying yourself, you will have people you disagree with at work, you will find that in the general population there are those who will proceed to throw their weight around. Your notion that somehow there is a shining real world that is full of love, light, rainbows, and puppies where everyone treats you nicely due to market forces is inane.

I personally had an indifferent time in the education system. I was bookish and was lightly picked on earlier in my educational career, but as I got older I developed a sense of humor that allowed me to gain a mild level of popularity. I was a generally well liked, quiet and attentive student, one you would probably have liked to have had in your classroom. However, I had friends who didn't have such a good time, including a student who killed himself who I was not personally acquainted with, but knew of. The institution itself, the environment that the school sets up is where the hostility and violence comes from towards other students. I personally don't associate the horrors of school with simple everyday life drama, it is manufactured drama through incarceration.

You have not shown how the drama as you term it in school is any different from the drama of the real world. It isn't. If anything, it is less than what you find in the real world and you have far more protection.

Thankfully it would seem your ranting will be confined to this forum, considering your program seems to be that only the rich should breed or women be given the choice between earning money and putting value on their education or childcare.

I am only 20, with any luck my ranting will be out there to the public by my death.

Given what you are proposing, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Purpose. A prison is a place of punishment. You are sent there for actions that you did (Or at least were accused of).

School is a place of education. Children go there to learn.

There have been prisons before that were designed to rehabilitate inmates and teach them to become contributing members of society, is this a school instead of a prison?

And the point was ignored, again, the primary purpose of a prison is punishment. A school is education.

Oh? Why?

Unless you can show me why it's not the same as I didn't ask to be born, my parents forced me to be and now I'm stuck in this life doing things I don't want to have to do like breathing and eating and the only way out is to kill myself, which isn't a real choice after all, I will state that life is a prison, by your logic.

(See, two can play this game)

You had no choice in being born or breathing or eating to survive, because those things are laws of nature. You have no choice in them, neither does anybody else that is alive. This is in stark contrast to coercion of behalf of others, where they imprison you through force.

But I didn't choose it. Since freedom of choice is your ballwick, life is prison.