Education Thread: Why are the youth disrespectful?

[NERVUN]

Definitions are great for summing up words, but not addressing the finer details. To surmise what constitutes as a prison from a definition alone is sadly denying yourself the mental capacity with which I am certain you are equipped.

Prison is designed for criminal offenders. School is not. The reality is that prisons are a far harsher environment on a daily basis than any school could ever possibly be. If only for the simple fact that, in a prison, you are surrounded by criminals who tend to act accordingly and heavily armed people prepared to deal with the inmates as such.

It should also be understood that people sent to prison are expected to serve sentences of confinement for far longer than six to eight hours a day. They do not get to go home and play video games, or eat their mommy's cooking every day. They do not get to have many personal freedoms which I am sure you do have and seemingly take for granted. You might have a better chance of comparing schools to community service, but even that is a stretch.

To compare school to prison is, IMO, naive and melodramatic. I will not suggest that you commit a crime to find out for yourself the difference in reality. I will, however, suggest you visit an actual prison and come back with a hopefully more enlightened opinion about the difference in nature of such things as schools and prisons.

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison. You can say that, in your view, school is a good prison. You might believe that school is even a necessary prison, but you cannot deny that school is, in fact, a prison. No where on this topic have I comparedschool to a prison. School IS a prison, there is no comparison to be made, it IS a prison. You can point out all sorts of differences between the justice system in America with the public schools, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that school IS a prison. There are nations in the world with relatively easy living in prisons, even here in the U.S. Bernie Madoff lives in a prison complete with a pool table and a garden. Is this not a prison? Of course it is, just like how school IS a prison. As to the time spent in prison of 6-8 hours? So what? There are people who drive to prison on the weekends in the U.S. if I recall correctly, people are placed under house arrest all the time. The duration spent imprisoned does not change the fact that they were IMPRISONED.

If you think it is melodramatic, then may I inquire WHY you believe imprisoning children is correct, and I am somehow way off base in believing it to be harmful, detestable, disgusting etc.

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison. You can say that, in your view, school is a good prison. You might believe that school is even a necessary prison, but you cannot deny that school is, in fact, a prison. No where on this topic have I comparedschool to a prison. School IS a prison, there is no comparison to be made, it IS a prison. You can point out all sorts of differences between the justice system in America with the public schools, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that school IS a prison. There are nations in the world with relatively easy living in prisons, even here in the U.S. Bernie Madoff lives in a prison complete with a pool table and a garden. Is this not a prison? Of course it is, just like how school IS a prison. As to the time spent in prison of 6-8 hours? So what? There are people who drive to prison on the weekends in the U.S. if I recall correctly, people are placed under house arrest all the time. The duration spent imprisoned does not change the fact that they were IMPRISONED.

If you think it is melodramatic, then may I inquire WHY you believe imprisoning children is correct, and I am somehow way off base in believing it to be harmful, detestable, disgusting etc.

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

Communist! Statist! Meanyhead!

[NERVUN]

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

Communist! Statist! Meanyhead!

That hurt my feelers.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Communist! Statist! Meanyhead!

That hurt my feelers.

I'm leaving this statist prison! I'm gonna make my perpetual motion machine, and then you'll be sorry!

[ZombieRothbard]

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

Well first, I implore you to tell me how I am incorrect in calling public schooling a prison.

Second, nature is not the same as the government and its agents coercing you.

[Volnotova]

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

Free will is but an illusion, we are mere electrical signals and impulses held in captivity by brain cells and chemical reactions: Slaves of causality.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison. You can say that, in your view, school is a good prison. You might believe that school is even a necessary prison, but you cannot deny that school is, in fact, a prison. No where on this topic have I comparedschool to a prison. School IS a prison, there is no comparison to be made, it IS a prison. You can point out all sorts of differences between the justice system in America with the public schools, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that school IS a prison. There are nations in the world with relatively easy living in prisons, even here in the U.S. Bernie Madoff lives in a prison complete with a pool table and a garden. Is this not a prison? Of course it is, just like how school IS a prison. As to the time spent in prison of 6-8 hours? So what? There are people who drive to prison on the weekends in the U.S. if I recall correctly, people are placed under house arrest all the time. The duration spent imprisoned does not change the fact that they were IMPRISONED.

If you think it is melodramatic, then may I inquire WHY you believe imprisoning children is correct, and I am somehow way off base in believing it to be harmful, detestable, disgusting etc.

Well, now I just have to be anal.

If we're going to ignore reality and simply throw definitions back and forth, the definition of prison does not match the definition of school. See for yourself.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/school

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison

If a school were a prison -and we're not just talking opinions here- it would be called a prison, not a school. I can deny that school is a prison because it isn't. A prison is a prison and a school is a school. I'm beginning to feel like Dr. Seuss here.

Both are institutions, yes, but the concept behind each is entirely different. One institution is in effect with the hopes that our youth will learn something valuable to help them progress further on in life when the real world hits and bills need to be paid. The other is where we send presumed fuck-ups with no expectations whatsoever that they will learn anything other than how to make a shank and hopefully stab one another over racial differences while we sit quietly at home eating our chicken noodle soup and debate politics.

[NERVUN]

Constrantly repeating something does not make it true.

Of course, to use your logic, LIFE ITSELF is a prison.

Well first, I implore you to tell me how I am incorrect in calling public schooling a prison.

Purpose. A prison is a place of punishment. You are sent there for actions that you did (Or at least were accused of).

School is a place of education. Children go there to learn.

Second, nature is not the same as the government and its agents coercing you.

Oh? Why?

Unless you can show me why it's not the same as I didn't ask to be born, my parents forced me to be and now I'm stuck in this life doing things I don't want to have to do like breathing and eating and the only way out is to kill myself, which isn't a real choice after all, I will state that life is a prison, by your logic.

(See, two can play this game)

[Ionian Knights]

Government needs to get out of the schooling of children, and we need unbiased teachers. I've had teachers who flat out told me that liberals are our friends and conservatives were trolls...

plus, I can't find a class that actually teaches real skills...

[ZombieRothbard]

Let's work through the logic. Youth have been rebelious since the dawn of humanity. We know this from numorus complaints on the subject by their elders. The public education system in the US has been around for, oh (Depending on how you define it) 150 years, give or take. So it makes are more logical sense to assume that youth today are disrespectful and rebelious (Which, as you noted, is a subective term and therefore rather hard to actually take seriously as a problem) due to whatever reasons were good back in ancient Greece rather than blaiming something that hasn't been around all that long. Thus you proceed from a false premse.

It is impossible to quantify rebellion, especially when comparing it to times that we have not experienced. My op was directed towards a general feeling or notion among people that the youth are rebellious today, and I offered my reasons why.

:palm: You're how old now? Dude, I have been out of public school (As a student) for 14 years, 1 year longer than I was in public school. I'm 32 and I have (baring acidents) at least 30 years ahead of me working AND quite possibly 20 or more years after THAT for living. You'd be hard pressed to say that public school takes up a quarter of a lifetime (In fact, when you look at school hours and that in the US the school year is just 180 days long, it doesn't add up to all that much). So please don't try to complain about how you wasted half of your life in schooling, you ain't lived it yet.

I am 20 years old. If I die tomorrow, I figure I will have spent a majority of my life on this Earth in prison.

Well, at least you're acknowledging that this is based on your own take of it. Now the rest of the world disagrees with you.

I went on to address this point later, as we both know.

Ladies and Gentlemen of NSG, I give you this wonderful quote to show just where the philosphy of this man is headed. You cannot breed if you are not rich.

And this is, of course, from the man who claims to be concerned with the rights and freedoms of all.

How little you understand human nature and how little you have an understanding of history if you really think that free daycare has caused people to breed. How little you understand of the troubles parents go through to raise their children, even with schooling. My only, and I truly mean this, wish for you is that, goven your stated studies and how low of a salary they actually command, any future SO you may have will be very understanding.

You can breed if you are poor, but you have to be willing to keep a parent home with a child.

As for rights and freedoms, freedom should not be conflated with power. You cannot will things to exist that you are incapable of doing, you cannot will property into your possession that you do not own, in other words, you don't have unlimited power. Freedom is the ability to use the power you DO have in as many ways as you wish, minus aggression.

I am not sure what you mean with your last paragraph.

Pretty sure first graders have mastered that skill. They cannot consentrate the way older children can, but that is why subjects change quickly and there is recess. Even adults cannot give full concentration for more than 2 hrs or so before needing a break.

The subject changing quickly is precisely one of the points John Gatto addresses when he discusses how we teach kids that nothing of value can be accomplished.

I have read it, and you avoided the point. If it ain't better or fix the problems, why bother with it? Also, yes, he doesn't source his arguments, which means you cannot check them and thus one must wonder... well, should be be trusted? In his world, everyone who drops out of school becomes sucessful and wonderful. In the real world, MOST who drop out of school fail to.

I doubt Gatto has ever said that dropping out of school magically makes you successful. I have already spent the bulk of this topic talking about why it would be better to homeschool children.

And again, you avoid the question(s). At what age should a child start working, and doing what?

The age of work is up to the parent and the child.

And because it is 'different' just what should my mother have done?

Your mother was victim to unfortunate events, she likely did the best she could with what she had, which is noble.

Actually I DO disagree with it and I explained why. So you had a bad time at school, so do others, other have a great time. Guess what, that's life. There will always be times when you aren't enjoying yourself, you will have people you disagree with at work, you will find that in the general population there are those who will proceed to throw their weight around. Your notion that somehow there is a shining real world that is full of love, light, rainbows, and puppies where everyone treats you nicely due to market forces is inane.

I personally had an indifferent time in the education system. I was bookish and was lightly picked on earlier in my educational career, but as I got older I developed a sense of humor that allowed me to gain a mild level of popularity. I was a generally well liked, quiet and attentive student, one you would probably have liked to have had in your classroom. However, I had friends who didn't have such a good time, including a student who killed himself who I was not personally acquainted with, but knew of. The institution itself, the environment that the school sets up is where the hostility and violence comes from towards other students. I personally don't associate the horrors of school with simple everyday life drama, it is manufactured drama through incarceration.

Thankfully it would seem your ranting will be confined to this forum, considering your program seems to be that only the rich should breed or women be given the choice between earning money and putting value on their education or childcare.

I am only 20, with any luck my ranting will be out there to the public by my death.

[The Black Forrest]

Definitions are great for summing up words, but not addressing the finer details. To surmise what constitutes as a prison from a definition alone is sadly denying yourself the mental capacity with which I am certain you are equipped.

Prison is designed for criminal offenders. School is not. The reality is that prisons are a far harsher environment on a daily basis than any school could ever possibly be. If only for the simple fact that, in a prison, you are surrounded by criminals who tend to act accordingly and heavily armed people prepared to deal with the inmates as such.

It should also be understood that people sent to prison are expected to serve sentences of confinement for far longer than six to eight hours a day. They do not get to go home and play video games, or eat their mommy's cooking every day. They do not get to have many personal freedoms which I am sure you do have and seemingly take for granted. You might have a better chance of comparing schools to community service, but even that is a stretch.

To compare school to prison is, IMO, naive and melodramatic. I will not suggest that you commit a crime to find out for yourself the difference in reality. I will, however, suggest you visit an actual prison and come back with a hopefully more enlightened opinion about the difference in nature of such things as schools and prisons.

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison. You can say that, in your view, school is a good prison. You might believe that school is even a necessary prison, but you cannot deny that school is, in fact, a prison. No where on this topic have I comparedschool to a prison. School IS a prison, there is no comparison to be made, it IS a prison. You can point out all sorts of differences between the justice system in America with the public schools, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that school IS a prison. There are nations in the world with relatively easy living in prisons, even here in the U.S. Bernie Madoff lives in a prison complete with a pool table and a garden. Is this not a prison? Of course it is, just like how school IS a prison. As to the time spent in prison of 6-8 hours? So what? There are people who drive to prison on the weekends in the U.S. if I recall correctly, people are placed under house arrest all the time. The duration spent imprisoned does not change the fact that they were IMPRISONED.

If you think it is melodramatic, then may I inquire WHY you believe imprisoning children is correct, and I am somehow way off base in believing it to be harmful, detestable, disgusting etc.

Just because you don't like the answer; doesn't make it wrong.

Your hint is the fact people are going at your comments.

Schools don't have enough similarities to fall under the auspices of the penal institution.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Government needs to get out of the schooling of children, and we need unbiased teachers. I've had teachers who flat out told me that liberals are our friends and conservatives were trolls...

plus, I can't find a class that actually teaches real skills...

1.) The government's involvement has nothing to do with the teacher's bias. You're a big boy, you can let them have their views and you can have theirs.

2.) You clearly aren't looking hard enough then.

[ZombieRothbard]

Purpose. A prison is a place of punishment. You are sent there for actions that you did (Or at least were accused of).

School is a place of education. Children go there to learn.

There have been prisons before that were designed to rehabilitate inmates and teach them to become contributing members of society, is this a school instead of a prison?

Oh? Why?

Unless you can show me why it's not the same as I didn't ask to be born, my parents forced me to be and now I'm stuck in this life doing things I don't want to have to do like breathing and eating and the only way out is to kill myself, which isn't a real choice after all, I will state that life is a prison, by your logic.

(See, two can play this game)

You had no choice in being born or breathing or eating to survive, because those things are laws of nature. You have no choice in them, neither does anybody else that is alive. This is in stark contrast to coercion of behalf of others, where they imprison you through force.

[Ionian Knights]

Government needs to get out of the schooling of children, and we need unbiased teachers. I've had teachers who flat out told me that liberals are our friends and conservatives were trolls...

plus, I can't find a class that actually teaches real skills...

1.) The government's involvement has nothing to do with the teacher's bias. You're a big boy, you can let them have their views and you can have theirs.

2.) You clearly aren't looking hard enough then.

1. Teachers teach us.... they mold political views as well... (why am I arguing with Nat?)
2. 10 bands is nto what i want...

[ZombieRothbard]

Whether you like it or not, school matches the definition of prison. You can say that, in your view, school is a good prison. You might believe that school is even a necessary prison, but you cannot deny that school is, in fact, a prison. No where on this topic have I comparedschool to a prison. School IS a prison, there is no comparison to be made, it IS a prison. You can point out all sorts of differences between the justice system in America with the public schools, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that school IS a prison. There are nations in the world with relatively easy living in prisons, even here in the U.S. Bernie Madoff lives in a prison complete with a pool table and a garden. Is this not a prison? Of course it is, just like how school IS a prison. As to the time spent in prison of 6-8 hours? So what? There are people who drive to prison on the weekends in the U.S. if I recall correctly, people are placed under house arrest all the time. The duration spent imprisoned does not change the fact that they were IMPRISONED.

If you think it is melodramatic, then may I inquire WHY you believe imprisoning children is correct, and I am somehow way off base in believing it to be harmful, detestable, disgusting etc.

Well, now I just have to be anal.

If we're going to ignore reality and simply throw definitions back and forth, the definition of prison does not match the definition of school. See for yourself.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/school

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison

If a school were a prison -and we're not just talking opinions here- it would be called a prison, not a school. I can deny that school is a prison because it isn't. A prison is a prison and a school is a school. I'm beginning to feel like Dr. Seuss here.

Both are institutions, yes, but the concept behind each is entirely different. One institution is in effect with the hopes that our youth will learn something valuable to help them progress further on in life when the real world hits and bills need to be paid. The other is where we send presumed fuck-ups with no expectations whatsoever that they will learn anything other than how to make a shank and hopefully stab one another over racial differences while we sit quietly at home eating our chicken noodle soup and debate politics.

Not all schools are prisons, a school can be just simply a school, or a school can be both a school and a prison.

[Nationstatelandsville]

1.) The government's involvement has nothing to do with the teacher's bias. You're a big boy, you can let them have their views and you can have theirs.

2.) You clearly aren't looking hard enough then.

1. Teachers teach us.... they mold political views as well... (why am I arguing with Nat?)
2. 10 bands is nto what i want...

1.) What? How is that... what is the point you're trying to make here? That we learn from the people who teach us?

2.) Those are electives. You chose them yourself. Try again.

[Ionian Knights]

1. Teachers teach us.... they mold political views as well... (why am I arguing with Nat?)
2. 10 bands is nto what i want...

1.) What? How is that... what is the point you're trying to make here? That we learn from the people who teach us?

2.) Those are electives. You chose them yourself. Try again.

1. yes.
2. No woodshop, no metalshop, I can't find a class on how to even weld metals! IS it all this fine art BS.

[Nationstatelandsville]

1.) What? How is that... what is the point you're trying to make here? That we learn from the people who teach us?

2.) Those are electives. You chose them yourself. Try again.

1. yes.
2. No woodshop, no metalshop, I can't find a class on how to even weld metals! IS it all this fine art BS.

1.) Thank you, Captain Obvious. You're still not making sense. I agreed with you that teachers shouldn't bring their views up in class.

2.) BS? BS?! I... I... give up. Humanity, you lose.

Seriously though, that's what craft schools are for. Der.

[Ionian Knights]

1. yes.
2. No woodshop, no metalshop, I can't find a class on how to even weld metals! IS it all this fine art BS.

1.) Thank you, Captain Obvious. You're still not making sense. I agreed with you that teachers shouldn't bring their views up in class.

2.) BS? BS?! I... I... give up. Humanity, you lose.

Seriously though, that's what craft schools are for. Der.

1. ok... end of discussion then...
2. I'm in a public school, and at least some simple tasks should be taught, not 5 bands(when we only need two) and 5 choirs(when we should have like 2) and don't get me started on ART. I'm fine with expressing one's self in art, but not to be graded on it...

[Rejaina]

One simply fact kids imitate or reflect what society has taught or what society shows is the right way. So inturn it's our fault as a society for children not learn being respectful and other complaints you have about them.

[Nationstatelandsville]

1.) Thank you, Captain Obvious. You're still not making sense. I agreed with you that teachers shouldn't bring their views up in class.

2.) BS? BS?! I... I... give up. Humanity, you lose.

Seriously though, that's what craft schools are for. Der.

1. ok... end of discussion then...
2. I'm in a public school, and at least some simple tasks should be taught, not 5 bands(when we only need two) and 5 choirs(when we should have like 2) and don't get me started on ART. I'm fine with expressing one's self in art, but not to be graded on it...

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

[New England and The Maritimes]

1. ok... end of discussion then...
2. I'm in a public school, and at least some simple tasks should be taught, not 5 bands(when we only need two) and 5 choirs(when we should have like 2) and don't get me started on ART. I'm fine with expressing one's self in art, but not to be graded on it...

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

Art is for commies and liberal pussies.

[Ionian Knights]

1. ok... end of discussion then...
2. I'm in a public school, and at least some simple tasks should be taught, not 5 bands(when we only need two) and 5 choirs(when we should have like 2) and don't get me started on ART. I'm fine with expressing one's self in art, but not to be graded on it...

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

Correct, but it shouldn't be graded on if you can draw a person right or not... Beauty in the eye of the beholder correct?

on the subject of Society, this is also a major factor... and I have been a strange supporter of killing off shows like Jersey shore and Family guy. They teach my fellow peers things they don't need to know yet... and increase immaturity.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

Art is for commies and liberal pussies.

You can not be serious.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Art is taught to breed creativity. Creativity is necessary in all fields.

Correct, but it shouldn't be graded on if you can draw a person right or not... Beauty in the eye of the beholder correct?

on the subject of Society, this is also a major factor... and I have been a strange supporter of killing off shows like Jersey shore and Family guy. They teach my fellow peers things they don't need to know yet... and increase immaturity.

Kill them off? Wrong.

I hate those shows with a passion, but they're just shows. Just escapism.