Ted Kennedy

[Muravyets]

Why would that make me a liar again? When have I lied?

I refuse to repeat the exact same post you claim to be responding to. Read it. The "why" is stated very clearly in it.

All of what follows is nonsense because Neo Art never said what you claim. You putting words into his mouth and then pretending to challenge and destroy an argument he never made is called a strawman argument. It is a logical fallacy and therefore invalid.

Neo Art challenged critics of Ted Kennedy on Chappaquiddick regarding the issue of government torture. He argued that they're feigning human kindness in regards to Mary Jo, and the proof lies in the fact that they also support torture. He thought the faking of human kindness made them liars.

I responded by saying that I don't support torture and I don't condone Chappaquiddick, either, and that I expect him to similarly prove that he's also not feigning human kindness by opposing torture and condoning Ted Kennedy's actions out of some "partisan hackery."

I never drew a parallel between torture and Chappaquiddick. I wasn't the person who compared them originally. That was Neo Art. I just answered an accusation. And remember when I said that I don't think they're equivalent? That was me drawing a distinction. I can say that two actions are wrong and not necessarily mean that I think they're equivalently wrong. Stealing and genocide? Both wrong. Equivalently wrong? Obviously not. So, again, I'm failing to understand how exactly I'm a liar.

[Deus Malum]

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

Which was all he was charged with.

Right, which supports what Art was saying, that he was never charged with, convicted of, nor pled to a DUI.

[Muravyets]

Have you even read what I wrote? I wasn't talking to you. I was explaining and re-explaining our (yours and mine) original argument because What's Her Face has been calling me a liar. (She doesn't really understand what's going on, I think.) If that's harping on it, then so be it, but I'm not even really dealing with your accusation anymore because, as you said, it doesn't apply to me. But thanks.

Have we met before? Have you had another nation that also liked to paint me as stupid and too insignificant to even note my name, even as you persist in fighting with me for extended periods?

I did not call you a liar. You questioned why it would be appropriate for Neo Art to call people "liars". I explained that the part that would make them liars was if they equated government torture programs with Kennedy's DUI. You're the one making a fight out of it as you, first, defended equating them even as you deny you would ever do it and, second, launched a personal attack against me.

[You-Gi-Owe]

Ted Kennedy was a giant of a man in the Senate, but there are (usually) a hundred senators. In his native country, it wouldn't be incorrect to say that near half of his own countrymen disagreed with him. So, yeah, Michael Jackson continues to get more press, until someone floats the theory that Bush and Cheney snuck into his room one night and gave him brain cancer.

[Muravyets]

meanwhile, what DUI? I do not believe Senator Kennedy was ever charged with, indicted for, convicted of, or pled to the crime of operating a motor vehicle under the influence of anything.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

You guys are all correct. I was guilty of using lazy language, by defaulting to DUI just because that was the most common talk about the incident at the time. But in fact, there is no real DUI, only a general suspicion of it. I'll cut it out.

[Muravyets]

Ted Kennedy was a giant of a man in the Senate, but there are (usually) a hundred senators. In his native country, it wouldn't be incorrect to say that near half of his own countrymen disagreed with him. So, yeah, Michael Jackson continues to get more press, until someone floats the theory that Bush and Cheney snuck into his room one night and gave him brain cancer.

His native country....you mean the USA?

[Farnhamia]

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

You guys are all correct. I was guilty of using lazy language, by defaulting to DUI just because that was the most common talk about the incident at the time. But in fact, there is no real DUI, only a general suspicion of it. I'll cut it out.

Really, could you try to be more precise? Sheesh.

[Muravyets]

Really, could you try to be more precise? Sheesh.

I'm going to try to scrub the fuzziness off my tongue.

[Krypton-Zod]

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

Which was all he was charged with.

Right, which supports what Art was saying, that he was never charged with, convicted of, nor pled to a DUI.

Because his rich and influential friends fixed it for him.

One law for ordinary Americans, one for rich folks like Ted Kennedy.

Who can forget his smear job on Clarence Thomas? I'm not mourning this asshole.

[Buffett and Colbert]

A true statesman like him deserves more coverage than Michael Jackson. - A shame he is not getting it.

Very true.

[Taeshan]

A true statesman like him deserves more coverage than Michael Jackson. - A shame he is not getting it.

Very true.

Micehal Jackson was just weird, Ted Kennedy was a national figure.

[Muravyets]

I don't know what channels you all watch, but I have not heard a word about Michael Jackson since Ted Kennedy died, and for the last three days, it's been practically nothing but Ted Kennedy on the local news, local radio, and MSNBC. I'm watching live coverage of his funeral mass right now.

[Taeshan]

I don't know what channels you all watch, but I have not heard a word about Michael Jackson since Ted Kennedy died, and for the last three days, it's been practically nothing but Ted Kennedy on the local news, local radio, and MSNBC. I'm watching live coverage of his funeral mass right now.

Um they just ruled Micheal Jackson's death a homicide, it is still getting a lot of coverage because of this/

[Muravyets]

I don't know what channels you all watch, but I have not heard a word about Michael Jackson since Ted Kennedy died, and for the last three days, it's been practically nothing but Ted Kennedy on the local news, local radio, and MSNBC. I'm watching live coverage of his funeral mass right now.

Um they just ruled Micheal Jackson's death a homicide, it is still getting a lot of coverage because of this/

Um, like I just finished saying in the post you quoted, Jackson is barely getting any mention at all on the stations I watch, where I live. Nor is anything else. Of course, I live in Massachusetts...

[Taeshan]

I don't know what channels you all watch, but I have not heard a word about Michael Jackson since Ted Kennedy died, and for the last three days, it's been practically nothing but Ted Kennedy on the local news, local radio, and MSNBC. I'm watching live coverage of his funeral mass right now.

Um they just ruled Micheal Jackson's death a homicide, it is still getting a lot of coverage because of this/

Um, like I just finished saying in the post you quoted, Jackson is barely getting any mention at all on the stations I watch, where I live. Nor is anything else. Of course, I live in Massachusetts...

Yeah and he lived in Massachusetts. Seriously there is a reason behind this.

[Krypton-Zod]

A true statesman like him deserves more coverage than Michael Jackson. - A shame he is not getting it.

Very true.

Barf.

[Tunizcha]

A true statesman like him deserves more coverage than Michael Jackson. - A shame he is not getting it.

Very true.

Barf.

What about the half-man half-dog from Spaceballs?

[Muravyets]

Yeah and he lived in Massachusetts. Seriously there is a reason behind this.

Yeah...which might be why I said "I don't know what channels you guys watch, but..."

Seriously, do try to keep up. Actually reading the words in the posts you respond to might help.

Also, MSNBC is not a local Massachusetts station, fyi. My point is that, if you want to see someone giving more coverage to Kennedy's death than Jackson's, all you have to do is put on MSNBC.

[Cybach]

I loved all kennedy's for what they did to this country and I also(when I get in gov't)Want to model myself after them to stand up and defend the weak and poor but I think it's sad that Ted helped the civil rights movement and stood up for the poor but noone gives a crap. But when a bleached singer dies everybody tears up.

Here's the question

Do you think Ted kennedy death is getting less attention then micheal jacksons. and why?

Was the lesser of the three politically involved brothers. He will forever be in the shadow of his more illustrious and enigmatic brothers John and Robert. He just lacked their charisma, power, popularity, charm and strength.

[Taeshan]

Yeah and he lived in Massachusetts. Seriously there is a reason behind this.

Yeah...which might be why I said "I don't know what channels you guys watch, but..."

Seriously, do try to keep up. Actually reading the words in the posts you respond to might help.

Also, MSNBC is not a local Massachusetts station, fyi. My point is that, if you want to see someone giving more coverage to Kennedy's death than Jackson's, all you have to do is put on MSNBC.

If i had cable, and i mean if, i would be watching ESPN right now, and not some Universal Sports rerun bullshit.

[Muravyets]

Was the lesser of the three politically involved brothers. He will forever be in the shadow of his more illustrious and enigmatic brothers John and Robert. He just lacked their charisma, power, popularity, charm and strength.

I have a feeling that the history books may take a different direction in that regard, based on the comparison between the impact of a real 46-year political career versus a brief flash of cultural myth.

Maybe if more people would stop listening to the Michael Jackson reports and go look for the 24-hour ongoing Kennedy coverage, they'd hear the various historians being interviewed and suggesting as much.

Of course, as with all things historical, time will tell.

[Muravyets]

If i had cable, and i mean if, i would be watching ESPN right now, and not some Universal Sports rerun bullshit.

Then you're not really one to comment on which is getting more coverage and which deserves it, are you, since you wouldn't be watching either. That tells me you are not really equipped to choose between those two dead men, since you're not interested in either of them.

[Conservatives states]

Good riddance to the government thug. Now if we can get rid of Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama, that would be great. Hell let's go the whole nine yards . Get rid of all those clowns.

[Hobit]

May the Lord receive his soul.

[Cybach]

Was the lesser of the three politically involved brothers. He will forever be in the shadow of his more illustrious and enigmatic brothers John and Robert. He just lacked their charisma, power, popularity, charm and strength.

I have a feeling that the history books may take a different direction in that regard, based on the comparison between the impact of a real 46-year political career versus a brief flash of cultural myth.

Maybe if more people would stop listening to the Michael Jackson reports and go look for the 24-hour ongoing Kennedy coverage, they'd hear the various historians being interviewed and suggesting as much.

Of course, as with all things historical, time will tell.

His eldest brother was President of the US. One of the most popular US Presidents to have ever served in office, and who always lands in the top 5 Presidents list.

His other brother Robert was also a Senator. Not only that. He was the Senator of New York. A much more prestigious seat than being the Senator of Massachusetts. However he wasn't just a Senator. He was one of the Presidents closest advisors. He was also the Attorney General first under his brother, then under Johnson until his resigning. Then he became a Senator again. Becoming famous in retrospect for being one of the first outspoken critics of the Vietnam war, long before it was popular to protest against that war. Robert then ran for President. After beating Eugene McCarthy he looked to be the primary Democratic Candidate. Analysts giving him a fairly good chance at winning the Presidential election. But he was assassinated before we ever would have known if he would have won or lost the upcoming Presidential race. Robert Kennedy was also one of the strong voices in the Civil Rights movement, after the assassination of President Kennedy, Robert Kennedy undertook a 1966 tour of South Africa in which he championed the cause of the anti-Apartheid movement. Robert Kennedy saw voting as the key to racial justice, and collaborated with Presidents Kennedy and Johnson to create the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964, which helped bring an end to Jim Crow laws.


Those two versus a Senator out of Massachusetts. Whose biggest political achievements seem to be failures in enacting immigration reforms and a yet unsure fate on his dreamed healthcare reform platform.



So yes. I am quite sure that despite the shorter career of the two elder brothers. Both of them were superior to Ted Kennedy in terms of success, achievement and prestige. Ted Kennedy was just the loser of that family. Not that there is much loser about being the Senator of a relatively minor state. However compared to his President and Attorney General brother, it simply doesn't cut the cheese.